EyeDentist, How Do You Train?

Training
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[quote]TheCB wrote:

this is a good thread but ED these last 2 posts are just sad imo.

there is more to life than a 6 pack.[/quote]

While that may be true, that’s not the issue here. It’s that he can have BOTH.

ED I’m no expert by any means, but I something like 80/20 rule would be good for you to follow. There’s a tipping point, definitely, where getting too relaxed with your diet will hurt your physique potentially, but it’s far from going out 1-2x a week and enjoying a meal or some snacks. Just under-eat a bit on the days before or the morning of to give yourself some wiggle room? Like ball park calories for a few hours when you’re out, after years of counting you’re probably pretty spot on with the estimates.

You’ve gotten to an incredible level of development, and are in lean enough state you have a lot of wiggle room, you’ve worked too hard to let this kind of stuff hamper you man.

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I suppose this avoidance behavior on my part is a sign of weakness; ie, if I had more willpower, I could face down the temptation of a party tray and/or nice restaurant meal. I guess I’m just following the path of least resistance. [/quote]

I don’t see it as a sign of weakness more of laser focus (that is a plus in your occupation!) Yes there are times that one does skip the birthday cake and I admire your dedication. Extreme for me but it works for you, man I do look forward to the one cheat meal/week

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[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]TheCB wrote:

this is a good thread but ED these last 2 posts are just sad imo.

there is more to life than a 6 pack.[/quote]

While that may be true, that’s not the issue here. It’s that he can have BOTH.

ED I’m no expert by any means, but I something like 80/20 rule would be good for you to follow. There’s a tipping point, definitely, where getting too relaxed with your diet will hurt your physique potentially, but it’s far from going out 1-2x a week and enjoying a meal or some snacks. Just under-eat a bit on the days before or the morning of to give yourself some wiggle room? Like ball park calories for a few hours when you’re out, after years of counting you’re probably pretty spot on with the estimates.

You’ve gotten to an incredible level of development, and are in lean enough state you have a lot of wiggle room, you’ve worked too hard to let this kind of stuff hamper you man. [/quote]

Thank you, my brother-from-another-mother. (Inside joke between me and Spidey.) I will take this to heart.

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[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
One more thing, which I think you’ve touched on briefly, but how much of a negative impact do you find staying so lean, especially at your age (forgive my rudeness), has on your social life? Do you find yourself avoiding social situations or do you just go along but politely refuse the food that’s on offer?
[/quote]

Good question. I have to say, keeping lean has definitely crimped my social life. I avoid functions that involve food or significant travel (ie, long enough to where eating a meal or more would be required). Friends and family have long since stopped extending anything but perfunctory invitations to get-togethers. Further, I am reluctant to eat out very often, and when I do, I tend to frequent restaurants that provide access to the nutritional content of their food–which means chain restaurants and their mediocre food. Once there, I order the same meal every time.

Both of these tendencies drive my wife nuts. In fact, recently she put her foot down and demanded I take her on a belated trip to celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary (which passed in July). The look in her eye told me it was best not to fight her on this one. We returned Sunday from a nice trip to San Francisco. (Did I overeat? Yes. Yes I did.)

I suppose this avoidance behavior on my part is a sign of weakness; ie, if I had more willpower, I could face down the temptation of a party tray and/or nice restaurant meal. I guess I’m just following the path of least resistance. [/quote]

Curious as to what you feel is the major draw back to one meal? Maybe once a week? I’m not close enough to most of my family for that part to matter and my mom who I am close to understands enough but to have my SO that restricted by my choices is a bit much for my taste. This hobby should enhance life not detract from it. I am also a fatty who loves food way too much :)[/quote]

For me, the issue is not that there’s a major drawback to having a weekly cheat meal (there isn’t). My problem is, I have a tendency to get overly ‘dialed in’ on the diet/workout thing, and can quickly lose proper perspective on it.

For example, up until our SF trip, I was slowly, systematically upping my caloric intake–a process that was going well. But if I were to eat a meal for which the calories couldn’t be accurately counted, I would (gasp) be unable to know exactly what my intake was, and thus would lose the ability to determine precisely how I was responding to my current macros. The horror!

Taking a step back: Is it absurd for someone not deep into a contest prep to be this obsessive? Absolutely. And insofar as my tendency to get ‘diet blinders’ adversely affects my wife’s quality of life, it’s selfish to boot.

Finding the proper balance between this hobby (obsession?) and the things that are truly important in life is definitely something I need to work on.[/quote]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. And agreed most that are attracted to achieving a high level physique are the OCPD types which can be good and bad. Finding balance is key. You have insight into it now acting on it would be a solid step. Baby steps though as to not be overwhelmed. I was in the same boat just 2 years go and then met my gf and changed a lot of my obsessions to not hinder getting to know her better and better and spend more time with her. Wihtout her I would very likely be stuck in my very very deep rut of OCPD on training and diet.

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EyeDentist,
I must say that this is my favorite thread on T-Nation. Ridiculous physique. I have a question on the Meadows program you’re using. Was that one that John drew up specifically for you or was it from one of his generic programs (if so, which one?)? I tried a Chest & Triceps workout based on your workout post early in this thread and absolutely loved it! I’m not designing the remainder of my workouts around this principle. I work out at home, so, don’t have any machines other than a combo Leg Extension/Leg Curl and a Lat Pulldown machine, so, most is BB/DB work. Thank you for keeping up with this thread…awesome conversations throughout!

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[quote]MDPT wrote:
EyeDentist,
I must say that this is my favorite thread on T-Nation. Ridiculous physique. I have a question on the Meadows program you’re using. Was that one that John drew up specifically for you or was it from one of his generic programs (if so, which one?)? I tried a Chest & Triceps workout based on your workout post early in this thread and absolutely loved it! I’m not designing the remainder of my workouts around this principle. I work out at home, so, don’t have any machines other than a combo Leg Extension/Leg Curl and a Lat Pulldown machine, so, most is BB/DB work. Thank you for keeping up with this thread…awesome conversations throughout!
[/quote]

Hi MDPT, thanks for the kudos. The workouts I’ve described are inspired by/modeled on Meadows’ approach to workout programming (especially his philosophy concerning warm-up/activation) as I understand them. That said, the specifics as I’ve laid them out are (for better or worse) my own.

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I’m glad my question about the social situations stimulated some discussion. My personal take is:

Firstly, it’s awesome that ED (I’m still not sure about that acronym) can be so dedicated. I know that if I were as meticulous in my planning and as unwavering in my approach that I’d definitely have a better physique than I do now. No question.

As for the effect on the relationship with the significant other, well from the outside looking in it does seem a bit like she’s missing out a little, but let’s not forget that she and the good doctor have been married a long time and he’s always been a physique conscious individual with bodybuilding (or whatever) being a big part of his life, so I doubt it comes as any sort of surprise to her.

I don’t think anyone has achieved balance between all the areas of their life, and we’re all a work in progress.

But yeah, ED, take your mrs out for dinner tonight. Somewhere nice that sells cheesecake! Haha

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[quote]Yogi wrote:
I’m glad my question about the social situations stimulated some discussion. My personal take is:

Firstly, it’s awesome that ED (I’m still not sure about that acronym) can be so dedicated. I know that if I were as meticulous in my planning and as unwavering in my approach that I’d definitely have a better physique than I do now. No question.

As for the effect on the relationship with the significant other, well from the outside looking in it does seem a bit like she’s missing out a little, but let’s not forget that she and the good doctor have been married a long time and he’s always been a physique conscious individual with bodybuilding (or whatever) being a big part of his life, so I doubt it comes as any sort of surprise to her.

I don’t think anyone has achieved balance between all the areas of their life, and we’re all a work in progress.

But yeah, ED, take your mrs out for dinner tonight. Somewhere nice that sells cheesecake! Haha[/quote]

It so happens, one of the (relatively few) good restaurants in this town sells the most awesome cheesecake–I get a piece every time we go!

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Thanks for the response. I’ve been reading up a lot more on John’s programs and really like the idea (especially since I’m 45). Also, trying some IF for the next few weeks to see how I do. The kids’ hockey season always kills my midsection! Keep this thread going and keep inspiring us old-timers!!!

250

Excellent thread! Thanks again for referring me EyeDentist!

As I told you in the other thread, I have some questions for you (and anyone else that cares to help)…

I’ll start with this… In attempts to completely overhaul/improve my physique (the typical burn fat and build muscle ‘fantasy’ ;-)… but with a realistic mind-set about it), I was going to try HIIT training (sprints, tabata, etc.) first thing in the morning, in my fasted state, then weight training/core/body maintenance (light yoga or some form of stretching routine) in the evening after I get off of work.

Would you (or any of you that follow a carb cycling diet) recommend any tweak in the diet plan presented in this thread (a protein shake after morning training for example) and if so, what kind of tweak? Also, do you see any flaw in this strategy?

I appreciate any advice/information! Also, if you need more info or have questions for me for clarification on anything, please let me know.

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[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
Excellent thread! Thanks again for referring me EyeDentist!

As I told you in the other thread, I have some questions for you (and anyone else that cares to help)…

I’ll start with this… In attempts to completely overhaul/improve my physique (the typical burn fat and build muscle ‘fantasy’ ;-)… but with a realistic mind-set about it), I was going to try HIIT training (sprints, tabata, etc.) first thing in the morning, in my fasted state, then weight training/core/body maintenance (light yoga or some form of stretching routine) in the evening after I get off of work. Would you (or any of you that follow a carb cycling diet) recommend any tweak in the diet plan presented in this tread (a protein shake after morning training for example) and if so, what kind of tweak? Also, do you see any flaw in this strategy?[/quote]

Hi sANDh, a couple of thoughts…

I have to say, I am not a fan of HIIT in the fasted state, especially first thing in the AM when cortisol levels are already high. Like weightlifting, HIIT is a stressful activity, and thus tends to run cortisol even higher. If you want to burn some calories in the morning, far better IMO to do some sort of low-intensity steady-state (LISS) cardio (bro-speak translating as ‘go for a brisk walk’), which is much less likely to significantly affect cortisol levels. If you want to incorporate HIIT, perform it as your main evening workout 1-2 (3 at most) times a week.

As for nutrition after fasted LISS, I would suggest sticking with a fat-based meal (eg, natty PB or almond butter) to keep insulin levels low.

You mentioned a protein shake. If you decide to go that route, I would recommend avoiding a whey-based formulation, as whey has a high leucine content and is thus highly insulinogenic.

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[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
Excellent thread! Thanks again for referring me EyeDentist!

As I told you in the other thread, I have some questions for you (and anyone else that cares to help)…

I’ll start with this… In attempts to completely overhaul/improve my physique (the typical burn fat and build muscle ‘fantasy’ ;-)… but with a realistic mind-set about it), I was going to try HIIT training (sprints, tabata, etc.) first thing in the morning, in my fasted state, then weight training/core/body maintenance (light yoga or some form of stretching routine) in the evening after I get off of work. Would you (or any of you that follow a carb cycling diet) recommend any tweak in the diet plan presented in this tread (a protein shake after morning training for example) and if so, what kind of tweak? Also, do you see any flaw in this strategy?[/quote]

Hi sANDh, a couple of thoughts…

I have to say, I am not a fan of HIIT in the fasted state, especially first thing in the AM when cortisol levels are already high. Like weightlifting, HIIT is a stressful activity, and thus tends to run cortisol even higher. If you want to burn some calories in the morning, far better IMO to do some sort of low-intensity steady-state (LISS) cardio (bro-speak translating as ‘go for a brisk walk’), which is much less likely to significantly affect cortisol levels. If you want to incorporate HIIT, perform it as your main evening workout 1-2 (3 at most) times a week.

As for nutrition after fasted LISS, I would suggest sticking with a fat-based meal (eg, natty PB or almond butter) to keep insulin levels low.

You mentioned a protein shake. If you decide to go that route, I would recommend avoiding a whey-based formulation, as whey has a high leucine content and is thus highly insulinogenic.[/quote]

It’s the thread that keeps on giving! After your suggestion of LISS training in regards to keeping the cortisol levels as low as possible, I looked into cortisol to further educate myself on the effects… thanks again for the guidance there.

Now, I have very little free time, working 50+ hours a week, having a 1 YO at home, going to school, and of course getting my workout in (I too have an amazingly supportive wife! ;-)); would core work in the morning elevate cortisol levels similar to HIIT or weight training? My thought being that I can focus on that aesthetic portion of my training, possibly enjoying a bit of morning caloric and residual burn, and not elevating those cortisol levels much more than they already are with a less stressful exercise. Having as little time as I do, I need to maximize my training efficiency (hence the now obviously misled idea of HIIT in the AM).

I still have quite a few questions so I’ll try and break them up into like subject matter. Thanks again for the help!

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Regarding the diet tips, suggestions, examples, I just have a few questions…

What do you mean by ‘intentional carbs’ (as opposed to just carbs in general)?

You also stated that you have the Coke Zero ‘vice’… do you find that all of the substitute, processed junk in them hinders your results in any way? I only ask because I too enjoy a zero carb/cal or diet drink to get flavor without the calorie hit…

Do you eat those specific carbs (cinnamon-raisin bagel, banana, jelly, syrup, etc.) for specific reasons or is it simply to get the insulin spike via personal taste preference of any carbs? That mix does sound delicious though!

Workout questions next…

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[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
would core work in the morning elevate cortisol levels similar to HIIT or weight training?
[/quote]

Now THAT is an interesting question! Let me start off by saying I am by no means certain my take on this is valid, and that I hope others following this thread will chime in with their opinions.

My take is that it would depend upon how vigorous/intense the core session was. I would say low-resistance, high-rep work that leaves you feeling invigorated–ie, the core-work equivalent of a brisk walk–would be unlikely to negatively impact cortisol. OTOH, core work performed in a HIIT-like fashion would be deleterious.

So, as long as you keep a lid on the intensity of the session, I see no reason why you shouldn’t do core work in a fasted AM state.

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Now, regarding workouts… more just picking your brain…

You had stated that you believe running is an efficient way of burning calories. Everything I’ve read suggests that a sustained ‘jog’ (that’s what my DS’s called a 9+ min pace in basic!) is actually counter intuitive to building muscle (the obvious), but also burning fat. I’m just kind of wondering what your thoughts about this are (as the info/suggestions/opinions you’ve provided thus far have been great). Could your effectiveness be do to your aptitude for running earlier in life? Maybe you just have a body that responds well to it? Maybe simple math (cals in, cals out)?

Thoughts on a Chest/Tri, Back/Bi, Shoulder/Traps, Legs/Calves split. This just seems to make sense to me as I’d already be working those secondary muscles anyway, though I never really see this kind of split recommended. Is there something I’m missing as to why?

What are your thoughts on carries (ex. farmers walk)? I have tried them in the past and had decent results/response, especially from my arms, traps, and shoulders. Just wondering if you’d ever tried them, what your experiences were, etc.

Also, you (and I think Spidey or your ‘younger brother’ :wink: ) had referred to the idea of working larger muscle groups (mainly legs) to stimulate growth in other areas of the body. Have you had an opportunity to try this yet? If so, what did you think? I tried this a while back (when I was doing those carries actually) and was able to achieve decent gain in overall AND specific muscles along with some fat loss (at least that’s what the guy in the mirror told me!) relatively quickly, though I admittedly have MUCH more to gain and lose then you do.

Would love some more training gems from you, EyeDentist, or anyone else willing to drop in their two cents. I’ve been doing slightly more than ‘bro-training’ for most of my training life, but am really looking to advance my training, nutrition, and overall knowledge…the TN website has been great, but this thread has been invaluable. Thank you all, esp E. DMD (thought that sounded better then just ED, :wink: ) for your contributions thus far!

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[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
would core work in the morning elevate cortisol levels similar to HIIT or weight training?
[/quote]

Now THAT is an interesting question! Let me start off by saying I am by no means certain my take on this is valid, and that I hope others following this thread will chime in with their opinions.

My take is that it would depend upon how vigorous/intense the core session was. I would say low-resistance, high-rep work that leaves you feeling invigorated–ie, the core-work equivalent of a brisk walk–would be unlikely to negatively impact cortisol. OTOH, core work performed in a HIIT-like fashion would be deleterious.

So, as long as you keep a lid on the intensity of the session, I see no reason why you shouldn’t do core work in a fasted AM state.
[/quote]

Thank you Sir. I think I will give this a shot and see what happens.

I do understand that you aren’t and expert, and our individual bodies are unique (though similar), but your theories and practices are definitely backed by tangible evidence, proven by your physique, and thus warrant credibility, IMO. I don’t take anything that anyone says as ‘gospel’, but it does give me strategies to think about and things to research/test further. Again, I appreciate your willingness to help a fellow lifter in need/search of guidance. Hope I’m not bugging you too much with all of these questions. :slight_smile:

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[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]Mateus wrote:
ED, what are you taking intra?

It’s a mix of 1) hydrolyzed casein protein (40 g total) with extra leucine, and 2) a waxy-maize-derived carb source (24 g total).
[/quote]

EyeDentist, is there any specific reason you use casein protein instead of whey protein? From my understanding, whey digests quicker, thus allowing more to be absorbed during the valuable insulin spike from the intra-workout protein/carb supplementation. I can understand, especially with carb-cycling, the value in satiability of casein, just wondering if there are any more benefits I’m not considering/aware of.

258

[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
You had stated that you believe running is an efficient way of burning calories. Everything I’ve read suggests that a sustained ‘jog’ (that’s what my DS’s called a 9+ min pace in basic!) is actually counter intuitive to building muscle (the obvious), but also burning fat. I’m just kind of wondering what your thoughts about this are (as the info/suggestions/opinions you’ve provided thus far have been great). Could your effectiveness be do to your aptitude for running earlier in life? Maybe you just have a body that responds well to it? Maybe simple math (cals in, cals out)?
[/quote]

Jogging is definitely a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it provides a convenient way to burn calories efficiently. On the other, frequent bouts of sustained moderate-intensity cardio (of which jogging is but one example) are detrimental to muscle-building, and likely becomes frankly catabolic if taken to extreme. That is, I think excess jogging will alter one’s hormonal milieu, the result being that the jogger ends up predisposed to developing the skinny-fat, cachectic physique characteristic of marathoners.

So if one is considering incorporating jogging into their fat-loss regimen, the trick is to avoid doing it so frequently, and/or for such long bouts, that the hormonal milieu gets shifted unfavorably. Unfortunately, no can say precisely what the frequency/duration cutoffs should be. I suspect this lack of certainty is why a lot of physique athletes/BBers (and their coaches) elect to err on the side of caution by foregoing jogging entirely.

I think that would work just fine.

Never tried them, and never would–too much stress for my dainty biceps tendons. But even if I had good tendons, I’m not sure if I would use them for anything other than conditioning work. But hey, if they work for you…

I suspect there’s something to this–probably a hormonal thing a la the effects of jogging (although a salutary, physique-enhancing effect in this case). However, I’m not aware of any hard evidence supporting this position. (Maybe Spidey or others will chime in on this.) All that said, I’ve just started working Legs again. I’ll let you know if my guns blow up as a result. ;^)

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[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
Jogging is definitely a mixed blessing. On the one hand, it provides a convenient way to burn calories efficiently. On the other, frequent bouts of sustained moderate-intensity cardio (of which jogging is but one example) are detrimental to muscle-building, and likely becomes frankly catabolic if taken to extreme. That is, I think excess jogging will alter one’s hormonal milieu, the result being that the jogger ends up predisposed to developing the skinny-fat, cachectic physique characteristic of marathoners.[/quote]

Nice job here, I’ve been following the whole thread even though this is the first time I have posted.

The jogging ‘milieu’ probably is unique to different persons. I can only offer my own anecdotal observations, but as a former fat guy who has to incorporate conditioning to stay lean or reach optimal levels of leanness, I can jog 3-4 times/week for 20-30 minutes and it doesn’t have a noticeable impact on my strength training, i.e., I can consistently increase my lifts on new cycles. Maybe this is the case for guys whose bodies tend to naturally lean more towards being energy storing machines?

However, I do believe the experience of other guys when they observe that similar or slightly higher levels of jogging can have a deleterious impact on their own strength gains and/or increasing LBM. On a side note, I see an awful lot of cyclists who have the skinny-fat body syndrome too, and I can’t help but wonder if it’s similarly related to the intake of high-performance, high-carb energy bars and foods + all the excessive cardio from the biking, while ignoring or shunning strength training.

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[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
[EyeDentist wrote:
Mateus wrote:
ED, what are you taking intra?

It’s a mix of 1) hydrolyzed casein protein (40 g total) with extra leucine, and 2) a waxy-maize-derived carb source (24 g total).

EyeDentist, is there any specific reason you use casein protein instead of whey protein? From my understanding, whey digests quicker, thus allowing more to be absorbed during the valuable insulin spike from the intra-workout protein/carb supplementation. I can understand, especially with carb-cycling, the value in satiability of casein, just wondering if there are any more benefits I’m not considering/aware of.[/quote]

My pre/intra-workout drink contains protein hydrolysates. Hydrolyzed protein has been broken down into its constituent amino acids–pre-digested, if you will. Because of this, the general guidelines concerning milk-protein fractions and digestion (ie, whey = fast, casein = slow) don’t apply. I’m not sure why hydrolysate manufacturers use casein rather than whey (I assume it’s easier to work with in some respect).

I add leucine because it is a potent insulin releaser, but does not compose a significant fraction of casein protein.