[quote]JR249 wrote:
The jogging ‘milieu’ probably is unique to different persons.
[/quote]
Hi JR249, thanks for chiming in. I agree with you–it seems likely that the frequency/distance parameters that determine when ‘good’ jogging tips over into ‘bad’ jogging probably varies from person to person. This makes it even tougher for a given individual interested in incorporating jogging into their fitness regimen to know in advance what level of frequency/distance they should pursue.
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
I suspect there’s something to this–probably a hormonal thing a la the effects of jogging (although a salutary, physique-enhancing effect in this case). However, I’m not aware of any hard evidence supporting this position. (Maybe Spidey or others will chime in on this.) All that said, I’ve just started working Legs again. I’ll let you know if my guns blow up as a result. ;^)[/quote]
Glad you’re working legs again brother!
On the ‘working legs to get bigger arms’ thing, I don’t think it’s that clear cut (anyone who says Squatting is what gets you big arms is an idiot), but I recall there being some research to support that when someone has, let’s say an injury to their right arm, working the healthy left arm will actually preserve muscle in the injured/non-exercised arm to a degree, as the body dislikes asymmetry. So it would make sense to me that working one’s legs, or back, or whatever, and getting those bodyparts large, will in part aid in the rest of you at least ‘wanting’ to get big for symmetry’s sake.
However, I’m aware there are wheelchair bodybuilders and such that have great upper body development, so it’s not a black and white issue. I just think it can’t hurt lol
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
I suspect there’s something to this–probably a hormonal thing a la the effects of jogging (although a salutary, physique-enhancing effect in this case). However, I’m not aware of any hard evidence supporting this position. (Maybe Spidey or others will chime in on this.) All that said, I’ve just started working Legs again. I’ll let you know if my guns blow up as a result. ;^)[/quote]
Glad you’re working legs again brother!
On the ‘working legs to get bigger arms’ thing, I don’t think it’s that clear cut (anyone who says Squatting is what gets you big arms is an idiot), but I recall there being some research to support that when someone has, let’s say an injury to their right arm, working the healthy left arm will actually preserve muscle in the injured/non-exercised arm to a degree, as the body dislikes asymmetry. So it would make sense to me that working one’s legs, or back, or whatever, and getting those bodyparts large, will in part aid in the rest of you at least ‘wanting’ to get big for symmetry’s sake.
However, I’m aware there are wheelchair bodybuilders and such that have great upper body development, so it’s not a black and white issue. I just think it can’t hurt lol[/quote]
I think both of you hit on aspects of the process. Part hormonal change, aiding in the ability to build muscle/lose fat and the body not “wanting” to be asymmetric. I’d echo Spidey’s suggestion, that working legs doesn’t DIRECTLY correlate with building muscle everywhere… there would need to be muscle specific work put in, but priming the body for this adaptation couldn’t hurt… like Spidey said.
EyeDentist, when you gave us one of your diet examples, you stated that your “carb window had closed” (my apologies for not including the quote). How big is your carb window exactly? Is this based on specific carb-cycle timing or just preference? And do you also have a cut off for ANY consumption, be it proteins, carbs, or fats?
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
EyeDentist, when you gave us one of your diet examples, you stated that your “carb window had closed” (my apologies for not including the quote). How big is your carb window exactly? Is this based on specific carb-cycle timing or just preference? And do you also have a cut off for ANY consumption, be it proteins, carbs, or fats?[/quote]
The thinking underlying the ‘carb window’ concept concerns the temporary, insulin-independent, exercise-induced upregulation of GLUT4 transporter complexes on the surfaces of muscle cells. That is, vigorous exercise produces a period of time during which the ability of muscle cells to import nutrients from the bloodstream is increased. This fact has led to the christening of this time-period as the ‘post workout carb window.’ Your question–and it is a good one–is, for how long post-w/o does the concentration of GLUT4 complexes remain elevated?
The short answer is, to my knowledge this subject hasn’t been addressed as of yet. (If anyone knows differently, please chime in.) For me, as a practical matter, my carb window is determined by how long it takes me to consume my carb allotment for the day. I always have a substantial carb meal immediately post-w/o, and will eat again not too long thereafter. I consume ~25 g carbs pre-w/o, and my first post-w/o meal contains ~125 g, so that’s ~150 g right off the bat. Lately my carb intake has been ~400 g, consumed over 6 hours or so post w/o. OTOH, if I were limiting myself to, say, 230 g (about as low as I would go), I’d probably finish them off within 2 hrs post-w/o.
So my advice in this regard is to determine a carb target for the day (rule of thumb: minimum carbs = BW-in-pounds + 50), and consume them post-w/o at whatever pace is most satisfying to you.
(An important caveat: A fairly recent literature review suggested that the post-w/o GLUT4 upregulation was not clinically meaningful; ie, feeding during this time did not result in significantly better results with respect to hypertrophy or strength. Stay tuned.)
Re timing of other macros: My rules of thumb (rule of thumbs?) are:
So nutritionally speaking, the day can be divided into three phases:
–The FAT phase commences upon awakening, and lasts as long as possible
–The CARB phase commences with weightlifting, and is fairly brief
–The PROTEIN phase commences upon completion of the carb phase, and lasts until the target is reached.
I don’t have a particular time-cutoff for eating, but usually stop eating about an hour or two prior to bedtime.
Given your interest in the science and such of nutrition, here’s a not-so-hypothetical that I’d be interested to get your thoughts on:
After suffering a severe medical event that resulted in both a near-total colectomy and severe gastroparesis, on workdays I’m only able to eat the last two and a half hours of my day (representing the time after leaving work from the time I have to go to sleep to wake up at a reasonable time the next day). The reason is that eating anything with calories (ie not water/coffee/tea/gum/etc) has an effect where I need to go lay down and let my body digest the food (similar situation to if you were go to the Chinese buffet and go to town).
I train first thing upon waking, which seems to have actually worked out fairly well because the food that I ate the night before, given how slowly it works its way through my system, fuels the next day’s work.
So here’s the question:
If you were limited to eating the last two and a half hours of your waking day and wanted to design a gaining diet, what would it look like?
For reference, I’m now a waif at 155 pounds attempting to make a comeback to training, with about seven or eight years of training behind me and having been fairly heavy (reasonably lean 215) and decently strong (squatting in the mid-4s and benching in the upper 2s) before this stuff happened six months ago.
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Given your interest in the science and such of nutrition, here’s a not-so-hypothetical that I’d be interested to get your thoughts on:
After suffering a severe medical event that resulted in both a near-total colectomy and severe gastroparesis, on workdays I’m only able to eat the last two and a half hours of my day (representing the time after leaving work from the time I have to go to sleep to wake up at a reasonable time the next day). The reason is that eating anything with calories (ie not water/coffee/tea/gum/etc) has an effect where I need to go lay down and let my body digest the food (similar situation to if you were go to the Chinese buffet and go to town).
I train first thing upon waking, which seems to have actually worked out fairly well because the food that I ate the night before, given how slowly it works its way through my system, fuels the next day’s work.
So here’s the question:
If you were limited to eating the last two and a half hours of your waking day and wanted to design a gaining diet, what would it look like?
For reference, I’m now a waif at 155 pounds attempting to make a comeback to training, with about seven or eight years of training behind me and having been fairly heavy (reasonably lean 215) and decently strong (squatting in the mid-4s and benching in the upper 2s) before this stuff happened six months ago.[/quote]
Much respect for getting back in the iron game while saddled with such a daunting set of challenges.
In essence, your GI status is forcing you to follow an eating program called Intermittent Fasting (IF), specifically, IF with a 2-3 hr feeding window. IF is usually employed by folks wanting to lose weight, not gain it. But as circumstances beyond your control have thrust IF upon you, you’ll have to make it work.
Assuming you work out vigorously for ~60 min/day, your BMR is probably in the ballpark of 15 cals/lb/d. At a BW of 155, that puts your current maintenance cals at 155 x 15 = 2325 cals/d. So to gain weight (but not too much fat!), your daily intake needs to be 100-200 cals/d above this. Let’s ballpark your ‘good gain’ cals at 2500/d. How does this number compare with what you’re currently consuming?
The advice is excellent and very appreciated! But of course, gave me some more questions. 
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
EyeDentist, when you gave us one of your diet examples, you stated that your “carb window had closed” (my apologies for not including the quote). How big is your carb window exactly? Is this based on specific carb-cycle timing or just preference? And do you also have a cut off for ANY consumption, be it proteins, carbs, or fats?[/quote]
Re timing of other macros: My rules of thumb (rule of thumbs?) are:
So nutritionally speaking, the day can be divided into three phases:
–The FAT phase commences upon awakening, and lasts as long as possible
–The CARB phase commences with weightlifting, and is fairly brief
–The PROTEIN phase commences upon completion of the carb phase, and lasts until the target is reached.[/quote]
Is there any particular reason NOT to add protein in the initial post-workout meal? While I understand the necessity of the carb intake during this window, being that the muscles are primed for nutrient absorption, wouldn’t it be advantageous to start going to town on protein as well, generally via protein shake (easier to digest). I also love my veggies and taters, but find they generally go best with a dead animal sharing the plate… along with chicken salads, tuna with pita chips and other forms of lean meat/carb mixes. If this is going to hinder my results for any reason, I would adjust accordingly. Breaking it up like you suggested does seem to be a simpler way to follow though.
I echo EyeDentist’s sentiments about getting back to it, MinusTheColon… and even more so with that name! Inspiring…
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
The advice is excellent and very appreciated! But of course, gave me some more questions.
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
EyeDentist, when you gave us one of your diet examples, you stated that your “carb window had closed” (my apologies for not including the quote). How big is your carb window exactly? Is this based on specific carb-cycle timing or just preference? And do you also have a cut off for ANY consumption, be it proteins, carbs, or fats?[/quote]
Re timing of other macros: My rules of thumb (rule of thumbs?) are:
So nutritionally speaking, the day can be divided into three phases:
–The FAT phase commences upon awakening, and lasts as long as possible
–The CARB phase commences with weightlifting, and is fairly brief
–The PROTEIN phase commences upon completion of the carb phase, and lasts until the target is reached.[/quote]
Is there any particular reason NOT to add protein in the initial post-workout meal? While I understand the necessity of the carb intake during this window, being that the muscles are primed for nutrient absorption, wouldn’t it be advantageous to start going to town on protein as well, generally via protein shake (easier to digest). I also love my veggies and taters, but find they generally go best with a dead animal sharing the plate… along with chicken salads, tuna with pita chips and other forms of lean meat/carb mixes. If this is going to hinder my results for any reason, I would adjust accordingly. Breaking it up like you suggested does seem to be a simpler way to follow though.
[/quote]
No reason you can’t consume protein along with the carbs. Bon appetit!
Appreciate the response. I’d almost say that it would be a misnomer to call it IF insofar as IF typically incorporates a 4-8 hour window. I’ve been doing this 2.5 hour window for the past couple of weeks on the weekdays with refeeds during the weekends, and having done IF in the past, I’ve just found the 2.5 window to be far different. It really leaves me time to do one meal.
RE: calories, I’ve been trying to essentially just keep them as high as I can stomach (literally), usually ending up in the 2500 range. I have to maintain a low residue diet, so I cannot eat highly fibrous foods. I was also instructed to avoid dietary fat to the degree I can.
I should have specified in my OP that I was primarily wondering what type of macro breakdown you’d suggest?
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
No reason you can’t consume protein along with the carbs. Bon appetit!
[/quote]
That’s GREAT to hear!
This thread has given me invaluable advice, especially pertaining to my diet. Today is the first day in that regard. Enjoying the PB, looking forward to the post-workout caloric intake!
I’m starting this change in overall regimen, both diet and exercise, but in hopes to avoid the ‘New Year Crowd’, I will be starting the workouts in my little home gym (picture attached). Unfortunately, this leaves me without a rack, press machines, bars, etc., basically DBs. My question to you and the rest of this thread, if you had to design a workout around those restrictions, what would it look like?
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
I should have specified in my OP that I was primarily wondering what type of macro breakdown you’d suggest?[/quote]
Protein: I’m of the opinion that 1 g/lb is plenty.
Fat: This is tricky in your case. Fats (especially cholesterol) are important for strength/muscle gains, in that they promote endogenous androgen production. So low-fat diets are not conducive to gaining LBM. However, given your physician’s admonition to keep fats to a minimum, I’m reluctant to suggest anything other than ‘as much as your physician considers OK.’
Carbs: I’d fill in the rest of your cal allotment with carbs. (Can’t say how much this is until your doc gives you specific guidance with respect to how much fat you can have.)
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
I’m starting this change in overall regimen, both diet and exercise, but in hopes to avoid the ‘New Year Crowd’, I will be starting the workouts in my little home gym (picture attached). Unfortunately, this leaves me without a rack, press machines, bars, etc., basically DBs. My question to you and the rest of this thread, if you had to design a workout around those restrictions, what would it look like?[/quote]
The New Years’ Crowd is definitely a thing, and a thing worth avoiding.
What specific equipment do you have available? (You said more about what you don’t have than what you do.)
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
I’m starting this change in overall regimen, both diet and exercise, but in hopes to avoid the ‘New Year Crowd’, I will be starting the workouts in my little home gym (picture attached). Unfortunately, this leaves me without a rack, press machines, bars, etc., basically DBs. My question to you and the rest of this thread, if you had to design a workout around those restrictions, what would it look like?[/quote]
The New Years’ Crowd is definitely a thing, and a thing worth avoiding.
What specific equipment do you have available? (You said more about what you don’t have than what you do.)[/quote]
Fair enough. Equipment as follows…
-Variety of DBs ranging from 5-50 lbs.
-Pull up bar with varying grips
-Adjustable bench (no leg extensions available unfortunately)
-Treadmill
-Heavy bag
-Misc fitness equipment- balance board, light bands, stability ball, push up handles, etc.
Was looking to shed fat these first 2 months or so (hence all of my diet questions), then get back to the gym once that crowd diminishes since I can’t really put the load on my muscles for the lifting related gains I’m looking for (regarding the big lifts especially). And I’m obviously trying to keep the muscle I have in the process…
IIRC, your basic strategy is to do fasted LISS cardio in the AM, and HIIT/weightlifting stuff in the evenings. Is that correct?
I’m trying a low intensity core workout, fasted, in the AM (don’t have much time in the morning to do a brisk walk for a significant amount of time), then the HIIT/Weight training in the evening.
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
I’m trying a low intensity core workout, fasted, in the AM (don’t have much time in the morning to do a brisk walk for a significant amount of time), then the HIIT/Weight training in the evening. [/quote]
Gotcha. What specifically have you been doing as of late? (Lay it out day-by-day.)
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
I’m trying a low intensity core workout, fasted, in the AM (don’t have much time in the morning to do a brisk walk for a significant amount of time), then the HIIT/Weight training in the evening. [/quote]
Gotcha. What specifically have you been doing as of late? (Lay it out day-by-day.)[/quote]
I will get on this ASAP and hopefully have something for later today or tomorrow.
In the mean time, you said that you sip on coffee throughout the day and sometimes at night… I assume this is creamer and sugar free so as to keep insulin levels from rising. Would green tea be an acceptable substitute to consume throughout the day? My cojones apparently haven’t dropped enough for me to be able to put away black coffee, but I can do the tea just fine, though I obviously don’t want it to hinder results for any reason.
I know this is Eye’s thread, but I just wanted to ask why the coffee/tea thing matters particularly? This seems like a really high degree of majoring in the minors unless you’re actually prepping for something.
