Thanks CT!
Have been taking off my headphones while doing the high pull to maximize my focus.
I gained about 4lbs of BW and have my high pull up at 225 for 2reps, my upper back has drastically thickened with muscle.
[quote]Floodzone004 wrote:
CT-
Would you recommend that once these explosive pulls have been been learned beyond a beginner level (Which I definitely have not progressed to yet) that they could/should be done from the floor? Or are the blocks more beneficial for layering purpose?[/quote]
Pulls from the floor are technically a lot more difficult if you do not have experience with the olympic lifts. They do not look like they are more difficult but they are. The reason is the when you do the pulls from the hang or blocks the bar can start closer to your center of mass (brushing against the thighs).
When you go from the floor, if you don’t know the proper first pull (from floor to knees) technique and transition from 1st to 2nd pull (passing the knees) then the bar will be further forward which will make it hard to do an efficient pull.
Clearing the knees is where most of the people screw up with any olympic lift from the floor variation. They pull in a straight line from the floor, which leaves the knees in the way and you have to let the bar move forward to clear the knees. This makes your weight shift forward which kills your pulling power. It also leaves the bar further away from your hips/center of mass which gives you a weaker lever arm.
During the first pull you knee to push the knees back while maintaining an optimal back angle. And when the bar passes the knees you must make sure that the bar stays close to the body (brushing the thighs).
It doesn’t sound a lot more complex, but the timing is more difficult and honestly from a mass-building perspective the high pulls from the floor will not build more size and power.
But if you goal is to learn the actual olympic lifts from the floor, they can be a useful progression tool.
How does this look CT?
I’m honestly a bit disappointed in myself because I should have started recording these earlier… This is a “good set” but other sets I have done FELT like I was pulling all the way to my chin, but really I was barely below the nipple line. I’m trying to drop the weight and really focus on getting these way higher up than they have been.
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
How does this look CT?
I’m honestly a bit disappointed in myself because I should have started recording these earlier… This is a “good set” but other sets I have done FELT like I was pulling all the way to my chin, but really I was barely below the nipple line. I’m trying to drop the weight and really focus on getting these way higher up than they have been.[/quote]
You lack thoracic extension… you have to throw your chest at the ceiling. It look like you are extending the lumbar area but not the thoracic idea. Look up and focus on rolling the chest to the ceiling.
Thanks CT, how does that height look?
[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Thanks CT, how does that height look?[/quote]
The height is irrelevant. Proper body positions and actions are what matters. The proper height should be the result of correct positions and actions. Height without these two things is worthless and if you only focus on height you risk never correcting your form (hey, I’m getting proper height anyway…)
Just did high pulls for the first time yesterday and now i find im sore in the traps and forearms. I knew it would beat up my traps but I dont understand whats with the forearms doms, ¿is it normal? I dont use straps or anything because im still too weak to use high weights,my 6 rep max was with 40kg
[quote]prometheus1 wrote:
Just did high pulls for the first time yesterday and now i find im sore in the traps and forearms. I knew it would beat up my traps but I dont understand whats with the forearms doms, ¿is it normal? I dont use straps or anything because im still too weak to use high weights,my 6 rep max was with 40kg[/quote]
Dude, the amount of force the hands/forearms must produce to hold on to a barbell during an explosive movement is very high… because of the sudden acceleration. A 80-90kg snatch-grip high pull without straps require the same grip strength as a 180kg deadlift
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]prometheus1 wrote:
Just did high pulls for the first time yesterday and now i find im sore in the traps and forearms. I knew it would beat up my traps but I dont understand whats with the forearms doms, �¿is it normal? I dont use straps or anything because im still too weak to use high weights,my 6 rep max was with 40kg[/quote]
Dude, the amount of force the hands/forearms must produce to hold on to a barbell during an explosive movement is very high… because of the sudden acceleration. A 80-90kg snatch-grip high pull without straps require the same grip strength as a 180kg deadlift[/quote]
That’s almost exactly the correlation I’ve noticed! I can do a 70kg SGHP without straps or hook grip and my heaviest strapless DL is probably 150-160kg. Well, I can do 80-85kg without straps, but it’s far from perfect.
How much grip strength does a hook grip add? I really need to start getting used to it.
[quote]BiP wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]prometheus1 wrote:
Just did high pulls for the first time yesterday and now i find im sore in the traps and forearms. I knew it would beat up my traps but I dont understand whats with the forearms doms, �?�¿is it normal? I dont use straps or anything because im still too weak to use high weights,my 6 rep max was with 40kg[/quote]
Dude, the amount of force the hands/forearms must produce to hold on to a barbell during an explosive movement is very high… because of the sudden acceleration. A 80-90kg snatch-grip high pull without straps require the same grip strength as a 180kg deadlift[/quote]
That’s almost exactly the correlation I’ve noticed! I can do a 70kg SGHP without straps or hook grip and my heaviest strapless DL is probably 150-160kg. Well, I can do 80-85kg without straps, but it’s far from perfect.
How much grip strength does a hook grip add? I really need to start getting used to it.[/quote]
It depends on your hand size…but at least 30 if not 50%… my hook grip is almost as solid as when I’m using straps.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]BiP wrote:
How much grip strength does a hook grip add? I really need to start getting used to it.[/quote]
It depends on your hand size…but at least 30 if not 50%… my hook grip is almost as solid as when I’m using straps.
[/quote]
I guess that means it’s time to start using it. Thanks!
I found this video of doing snatch grip high pulls (SGHPs) from the floor ( https://www.T-Nation.com/strength-training-topics/snatch-high-pull-from-floor ), but I note that a most all the articles that I found from you, CT, on SGHPs only mention doing them from blocks or from the hang.
Why not aim to do them from the floor? Is it because that requires much more technique, or are there other factors to consider? The gym I mostly train at only has one set of stands (used for box jumps), the few movable benches are in high demand, and my snatch grip goes basically to the collars, which means my hands are right where the rack pins go on the bar… so the floor seems to be the best option. My grip (even with straps, it seems) needs to get stronger to keep a set going from the hang (or I need to improve my catch technique).
What would you recommend?
Thanks a ton for all your advice around T-Nation!
=> Shadowhawk
[quote]Shadowhawk wrote:
I found this video of doing snatch grip high pulls (SGHPs) from the floor ( https://www.T-Nation.com/strength-training-topics/snatch-high-pull-from-floor ), but I note that a most all the articles that I found from you, CT, on SGHPs only mention doing them from blocks or from the hang.
Why not aim to do them from the floor? Is it because that requires much more technique, or are there other factors to consider? The gym I mostly train at only has one set of stands (used for box jumps), the few movable benches are in high demand, and my snatch grip goes basically to the collars, which means my hands are right where the rack pins go on the bar… so the floor seems to be the best option. My grip (even with straps, it seems) needs to get stronger to keep a set going from the hang (or I need to improve my catch technique).
What would you recommend?
Thanks a ton for all your advice around T-Nation!
=> Shadowhawk[/quote]
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The fact that even with straps you have grip problems tell me that instead of looking for ways to avoid the issue you should work on correcting the problem hence why doing the lift from the ground is my recommendation.
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Any Olympic lift variation performed from the floor is technically more difficult. It might seem obvious: just pull in a straight line from the floor right? Not exactly. if you pull in a straight line from the floor the weight will be too far forward for optimal leverage and you will tend to move the hips too far forward when you explode and hyperextending your back. The first pull in weightlifting is done in a slight arc toward you because the knees must move back when you begin the lift, in such a way that when the bar reaches the knees, the tibia/lower leg is perpendicular to the floor (not angled forward which will happen if you pull in a straight line), then when you pass the knees the pattern changes. I’m not saying that it’s impossible to learn, it’s not. I have dozens of people doing pulls from the floor, but they practice the Olympic lifts 2-5 times a week.
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You can try to learn the movement from the floor if you want, but until you become very explosive there is not many added benefits to doing the pulls from the floor (unless you are an Olympic lifter using them to improve your lifts). First from blocks you will be able to use about 10% more weight than from the floor, from the hang it normally is 5% more than from the floor (if you are doing the movement properly); if you can use more weight in the portion of the lift that counts when it comes to building the traps/upper back/shoulders then it will be more effective. Second with the weights you will be using in your high pulls, the first pull (from floor to above knees) will not contribute to strength or size gains. I’m more explosive than I am strong and my high pull technique is very efficient. Yet my best high pull is only about 70% of my deadlift. And that is actually an exception. Most of the people I know, who are pretty good at the Olympic lifts can use 50-60% of their deadlift on high pulls and more average people will be at around 30 or 40%. Doing the first pull with 50% of your ma deadlift will do nothing to build strength and size. So doing the high pull from the floor doesn’t give you anything more and can actually hurt your overall performance by being more complex and causing more fatigue per rep. Now if you are talking low pulls, yeah doing them from the floor might have some advantages because you can use a lot more weight which will make the “first pull” portion more effective.
Thanks for a fantastically detailed and thorough answer, CT!
Do you do this ramp to max with any exercise every week? For example day 2
incline bench press
Close grip bench
Bench press etc…
How do you set yourself up starting position for SGHPs (from blocks)?
As an example of the kind of details that I feel like I could benefit from, I’m coming from reading form and technique from Rippetoe on deadlifts, for instance, of (paraphrasing from memory) 1) standing with shins a small distance from the bar, 2) set your grip, 3) move knees forward only enough to touch shins to the bar, 4) rotate chest up to take all slack out of arms…
There’s also the expectation that the arms will actually be slanted back so that our shoulders are a little in front of the bar.
I assume we set up so that the bar is above our mid-foot. But for the rest, I’d love to hear more.
Hi CT,I train shoulders and traps once a week and was thinking of adding snatch grip high pulls from hang as I dont have blocks,to add size to traps and shoulders what set-reps you think I should try and would dumbell shrugs same workout be ok? Thanks
[quote]bubba_jack818 wrote:
Hi CT,I train shoulders and traps once a week and was thinking of adding snatch grip high pulls from hang as I dont have blocks,to add size to traps and shoulders what set-reps you think I should try and would dumbell shrugs same workout be ok? Thanks[/quote]
Dumbbells shrugs are nowhere near similar to high pulls…
[quote]Shadowhawk wrote:
How do you set yourself up starting position for SGHPs (from blocks)?
As an example of the kind of details that I feel like I could benefit from, I’m coming from reading form and technique from Rippetoe on deadlifts, for instance, of (paraphrasing from memory) 1) standing with shins a small distance from the bar, 2) set your grip, 3) move knees forward only enough to touch shins to the bar, 4) rotate chest up to take all slack out of arms…
There’s also the expectation that the arms will actually be slanted back so that our shoulders are a little in front of the bar.
I assume we set up so that the bar is above our mid-foot. But for the rest, I’d love to hear more.
[/quote]
That’s pretty much it (from blocks) except for one thing: the shins should be perpendicular to the ground (at the position you are in from blocks which has the bar just above the knees).
Since you are using a snatch-grip the shoulders might be slightly in front of the bar, but directly over it is fine (as long as they are not behind the bar). The only thing I should mention is that the arms should be relaxed, not tensed. The back is tight but the arms are loose. Otherwise you will pull the bar up with your arm right from the start which is both inefficient and dangerous. The explosion is done with the hips, legs and traps… the arms only pull on the bar when momentum has been transferred to it so it will be easy to accelerate it further with the arms.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]bubba_jack818 wrote:
Hi CT,I train shoulders and traps once a week and was thinking of adding snatch grip high pulls from hang as I dont have blocks,to add size to traps and shoulders what set-reps you think I should try and would dumbell shrugs same workout be ok? Thanks[/quote]
Dumbbells shrugs are nowhere near similar to high pulls…
[/quote]
I didnt mean instead of high pull but in same workout. Like my shoulder workout would be -standing millitry press,side latterals,rear latterals then high pulls.dumbell shrugs-also with the high pull was wondering what set-reps should I do.thanks