Snatch Grip Deadlift, Squat or Hinge?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
1

Hi thibs,

Love your new article about strength-skill and thinking about giving the programme a whirl

I have found in the snatch grip deadlift a lift I can do without injuring my knees and lower back, which have given me lots of problems. I do them with a very wide grip and hips in a low starting position.

Could you see any problems arising from me using these as the knee-centric/ or squat exercise in conjunction with another hinge movement for the programme? Would I be overloading the hinge pattern?

If so, what would you recommend? Only doing snatch grip deadlifts for lower body but upping volume? Or maybe using single leg exercises for the squat movement in this programme (some variations don’t aggravate my knees or lower back).

Would love your opinion on this exercise which doesn’t seem to clearly fall into either the hinge or squat camp (when performed with low hips).

Keep up the excellent work coach!

2

[quote]rabidshrimp wrote:
Hi thibs,

Love your new article about strength-skill and thinking about giving the programme a whirl

I have found in the snatch grip deadlift a lift I can do without injuring my knees and lower back, which have given me lots of problems. I do them with a very wide grip and hips in a low starting position.

Could you see any problems arising from me using these as the knee-centric/ or squat exercise in conjunction with another hinge movement for the programme? Would I be overloading the hinge pattern?

If so, what would you recommend? Only doing snatch grip deadlifts for lower body but upping volume? Or maybe using single leg exercises for the squat movement in this programme (some variations don’t aggravate my knees or lower back).

Would love your opinion on this exercise which doesn’t seem to clearly fall into either the hinge or squat camp (when performed with low hips).

Keep up the excellent work coach!

[/quote]

Snatch-grip deads should be performed with lowish hips (as low as possible while still having the shoulders above, NOT behind, the barbell). And during the first pull (from floor to bar just above knees) you should focus on maintaining the same (or close to) torso angle. So in that regard it is a “squatting” movement, not a hip hinge.

Look at one of my crossfit athlete’s snatch (best to see it in slow motion), you see that the torso stays fairly upright from floor the knees and it’s mostly a quads exercise.

Personally I would do more volume of SGDL if you can do them without pain with maybe some bulgarian split squats.

3

Thanks for the lightening-fast reply CT - you’re a champ!

Good to know the low hips position is correct - I was intuitively doing them that way to increase focus on my quads but it’s comforting to know this is actually standard form.

One question though: If, like you say, the exercise is predominantly a squatting movement (the first portion at least), wouldn’t it be better to pair it with a hinge movement as opposed to bulgarians which i thought was a quad destroyer? hope this is not a silly question!

4

[quote]rabidshrimp wrote:
Thanks for the lightening-fast reply CT - you’re a champ!

Good to know the low hips position is correct - I was intuitively doing them that way to increase focus on my quads but it’s comforting to know this is actually standard form.

One question though: If, like you say, the exercise is predominantly a squatting movement (the first portion at least), wouldn’t it be better to pair it with a hinge movement as opposed to bulgarians which i thought was a quad destroyer? hope this is not a silly question!

[/quote]

Sure, I thought that hip hinge movements were problematic. However if you do split squats with a “longer” stance, it hits the posterior chain nicely.

5

excellent!

conventional deads/ low bar squats give me lower back pain and squatting with high bar/ bar in front gives me knee pain my podiatrist thinks these issues are due to problems with my feet (valgus feet with bunions). I was glad and surprised that i could hit SG deads, i think due to less forward knee tracking and weight used.

The long stance bulgarians sounds like it would work nicely - thanks for the tip. Would it be okay to do the bulgarians for higher reps at the end of the group 1 workouts to supplement SG deads? I’m assuming you wouldn’t recommend following the programme for bulgarians (singles at 85%, triples at 75%)

6

So would you say that the pull of a snatch is primarily quad movement instead of a hinge for most (or all) people?

I’m just wondering if this varies from person to person, or between different exercises with snatch grip (I.e., deadlift, high pull, power snatch, blocks vs hang, etc). In the article where it suggests to pick one press, one hinge, and one squat movement it looks like the power snatch/clean are presented as hinges.

I ask because I have been doing a snatch grip high pull blitz the past two weeks and to me I feel much more powerful if I think “hinge” when I do it rather than “quads.” And definitely athletes in the vertical jump vary between being quad dominant and hip dominant.

I know that Olympic lifting is reliant mostly on quads, but I had kinda figured that was do to the squatting portion of both events being a more common bottleneck. I only went for one coaching session but the coach wanted me to set up for the snatch with very high hips and tight hamstrings.

7

[quote]Clypher wrote:
So would you say that the pull of a snatch is primarily quad movement instead of a hinge for most (or all) people?

I’m just wondering if this varies from person to person, or between different exercises with snatch grip (I.e., deadlift, high pull, power snatch, blocks vs hang, etc). In the article where it suggests to pick one press, one hinge, and one squat movement it looks like the power snatch/clean are presented as hinges.

I ask because I have been doing a snatch grip high pull blitz the past two weeks and to me I feel much more powerful if I think “hinge” when I do it rather than “quads.” And definitely athletes in the vertical jump vary between being quad dominant and hip dominant.

I know that Olympic lifting is reliant mostly on quads, but I had kinda figured that was do to the squatting portion of both events being a more common bottleneck. I only went for one coaching session but the coach wanted me to set up for the snatch with very high hips and tight hamstrings.[/quote]

The “hinge” action in the olympic lifts occurs in the second pull/explosion. The first pull is more like a squat.

Actually if you want to break it down precisely… for most people a snatch or clean is:

1st pull (floor to knee): squat
Readjustment (knees to hips) hip hinge
Explosion (from hips to projection) “squat” (actually more like an explosive leg extension/jumping action)

Now, in people with long limbs a snatch/clean can be more hips dominant but it’s still 3 different actions when it’s done properly.

So a snatch/clean is hard to classify, The reason I put them as a hinge is that in a snatch or clean the “squat” portion is relatively underloaded. For example even if you are a good snatcher your power snatch will be about 60% of your squat or 70% of your snatch deadlift… if you aren’t super efficient it will be closer to 45-50 and 55-65%… so the first pull isn’t really challenging.

Now, a snatch deadlift would be more of a squat and a high pull from blocks/hang would be more of a hinge (even though it still have the explosive final leg extension).

8

Loving the info. I have copied and pasted my training days 1 & 2 for the Russian strength-skill program. Tips and comments of any nature from anyone welcomed

Workout 1
A) Snatch grip deadlift (Starting volume: 85% 8 x 1 // 75% 5 x 3)
B) Long-stance bulgarian split squat 2 x 10
C) Weighted chin ups ramp + 1 back off set
D) Dead-stop DB row 3 x 8
E) Face Pulls 3 x 12

Workout 2

A) Clean and push press 5 x 1// 3 x 3
B1) Bench Press 5 x 1// 3 x 3
B2) Bat wings for rhomboids
C1) Glute bridge 2 x 10
C2) American deadlift 2 x 12
D1) Kayak row (one side at a time) 3 x 10
D2) (Same arm) One-arm Cable row (with squeeze) 3 x 12
E) Rear delts

9

Perfect, that clears up a lot.

10

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Clypher wrote:
So would you say that the pull of a snatch is primarily quad movement instead of a hinge for most (or all) people?

I’m just wondering if this varies from person to person, or between different exercises with snatch grip (I.e., deadlift, high pull, power snatch, blocks vs hang, etc). In the article where it suggests to pick one press, one hinge, and one squat movement it looks like the power snatch/clean are presented as hinges.

I ask because I have been doing a snatch grip high pull blitz the past two weeks and to me I feel much more powerful if I think “hinge” when I do it rather than “quads.” And definitely athletes in the vertical jump vary between being quad dominant and hip dominant.

I know that Olympic lifting is reliant mostly on quads, but I had kinda figured that was do to the squatting portion of both events being a more common bottleneck. I only went for one coaching session but the coach wanted me to set up for the snatch with very high hips and tight hamstrings.[/quote]

The “hinge” action in the olympic lifts occurs in the second pull/explosion. The first pull is more like a squat.

Actually if you want to break it down precisely… for most people a snatch or clean is:

1st pull (floor to knee): squat
Readjustment (knees to hips) hip hinge
Explosion (from hips to projection) “squat” (actually more like an explosive leg extension/jumping action)

[/quote]

When you do high pulls off of benches, are you in starting with a hip hinge or just a straight up explosion portion?

11

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

When you do high pulls off of benches, are you in starting with a hip hinge or just a straight up explosion portion? [/quote]

There is a slight hip hinge, or what I call “opening up the torso”. Very brief… followed by the upward explosion.

12

Hi I had one more question about the SG deadlift!

Someone at my gym told me to perform these with a shrug at the top. Would you advise someone following the strength-skill programmme to do it this way? I have started doing this, and it feels more explosive but perhaps a bit less controlled.

13

[quote]rabidshrimp wrote:
Hi I had one more question about the SG deadlift!

Someone at my gym told me to perform these with a shrug at the top. Would you advise someone following the strength-skill programmme to do it this way? I have started doing this, and it feels more explosive but perhaps a bit less controlled.

[/quote]

That’s fine… he probably saw olympic lifters to do this (they do). But…

  1. It’s not really a shrug… what happens is that to simulate the mechanics of a snatch pulling phase, olympic lifters accelerate the bar at the top of the pull to create momentum. If momentum is created the bar “jumps upwards” and the shoulders go up into a shrug-like motion to allow the bar to go up to is momentum… it’s not an active shrug in the bodybuilding sense. There is some traps involvement, but the leg drive precedes the shrug, it’s not a deadlift with a shrug.

  2. It shouldn’t feel less controlled. If you are losing control it’s either that your are leaning backwards (or forward) instead of staying vertical at the top of the pull or you are changing the mechanics of the movement by starting too fast off the floor and raising your hips faster than the shoulders.

14

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Clypher wrote:
So would you say that the pull of a snatch is primarily quad movement instead of a hinge for most (or all) people?

I’m just wondering if this varies from person to person, or between different exercises with snatch grip (I.e., deadlift, high pull, power snatch, blocks vs hang, etc). In the article where it suggests to pick one press, one hinge, and one squat movement it looks like the power snatch/clean are presented as hinges.

I ask because I have been doing a snatch grip high pull blitz the past two weeks and to me I feel much more powerful if I think “hinge” when I do it rather than “quads.” And definitely athletes in the vertical jump vary between being quad dominant and hip dominant.

I know that Olympic lifting is reliant mostly on quads, but I had kinda figured that was do to the squatting portion of both events being a more common bottleneck. I only went for one coaching session but the coach wanted me to set up for the snatch with very high hips and tight hamstrings.[/quote]

The “hinge” action in the olympic lifts occurs in the second pull/explosion. The first pull is more like a squat.

Actually if you want to break it down precisely… for most people a snatch or clean is:

1st pull (floor to knee): squat
Readjustment (knees to hips) hip hinge
Explosion (from hips to projection) “squat” (actually more like an explosive leg extension/jumping action)

[/quote]

When you do high pulls off of benches, are you in starting with a hip hinge or just a straight up explosion portion? [/quote]

There is a slight hip hinge, but not so much that the hips push/bump the bar forward. It’s actually a fairly complex timing (start with leg drive until the bar is at the hips, then hinge to bring the torso vertical and then powerful drive with the legs so really you should only think about bringing the torso vertical then exploding up. If you focus too much on what happens in milliseconds you will lose all explosiveness.

15

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
That’s fine… he probably saw olympic lifters to do this (they do). But…

  1. It’s not really a shrug… what happens is that to simulate the mechanics of a snatch pulling phase, olympic lifters accelerate the bar at the top of the pull to create momentum. If momentum is created the bar “jumps upwards” and the shoulders go up into a shrug-like motion to allow the bar to go up to is momentum… it’s not an active shrug in the bodybuilding sense. There is some traps involvement, but the leg drive precedes the shrug, it’s not a deadlift with a shrug.

  2. It shouldn’t feel less controlled. If you are losing control it’s either that your are leaning backwards (or forward) instead of staying vertical at the top of the pull or you are changing the mechanics of the movement by starting too fast off the floor and raising your hips faster than the shoulders.[/quote]

Thanks - that helps a lot! I have a couple more Qs about this variation which the search function on T-Nation, google and youtube haven’t helped me with (maybe my research skills aren’t up to scratch - but I really tried!)

  1. Can/ do you let the momentum bring you up onto your toes too, or is it just the shoulders which shoot up?
  2. Would you say this technique is better for low-rep submaximal lifting since you can accelerate through the entirety of the movement?
  3. Does it have a name?
16

[quote]rabidshrimp wrote:

  1. Can/ do you let the momentum bring you up onto your toes too, or is it just the shoulders which shoot up?

  2. Would you say this technique is better for low-rep submaximal lifting since you can accelerate through the entirety of the movement?

  3. Does it have a name?
    [/quote]

  4. Yes you can… and you said it the right way… “let the momentum carry you up to your toes”… you do not actively try to go on your toes as if doing a calves exercise: you go on your toes simply because of the explosion you produced.

  5. Yes I would stay below 6 reps per set

  6. “Snatch pull” or “snatch extension”… The later is used by US coach Bob Takano and I like this name because a “snatch pull” can refer to several exercise variation depending on the coach.

17

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

  1. Yes you can… and you said it the right way… “let the momentum carry you up to your toes”… you do not actively try to go on your toes as if doing a calves exercise: you go on your toes simply because of the explosion you produced.

  2. Yes I would stay below 6 reps per set

  3. “Snatch pull” or “snatch extension”… The later is used by US coach Bob Takano and I like this name because a “snatch pull” can refer to several exercise variation depending on the coach.

[/quote]

Excellent. Another very helpful post!

I’ve linked a youtube vid (below) of me trying to apply some of your pointers. If you have time, do let me know if there are obvious issues that need addressing.

18

[quote]rabidshrimp wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

  1. Yes you can… and you said it the right way… “let the momentum carry you up to your toes”… you do not actively try to go on your toes as if doing a calves exercise: you go on your toes simply because of the explosion you produced.

  2. Yes I would stay below 6 reps per set

  3. “Snatch pull” or “snatch extension”… The later is used by US coach Bob Takano and I like this name because a “snatch pull” can refer to several exercise variation depending on the coach.

[/quote]

Excellent. Another very helpful post!

I’ve linked a youtube vid (below) of me trying to apply some of your pointers. If you have time, do let me know if there are obvious issues that need addressing.

[/quote]

It doesn’t look bad but that is the absolute worst angle to be able to see your technique and make recommendations… ideally I want to see at a 45 degrees angle from the front

19

Haha oops - thanks for giving it a watch anyway. I will upload a better video in 3 days (next lower body day).