[quote]Professor X wrote:
I was just talking to one of the guys who competes superheavy in the NPC (he was at the gym training and I recognized him from the videos on the repetrope website). His response to me was that he would often get close to 20% body fat in the off season (he specifically said, “about 18%”)and has been over 300lbs.
.[/quote]
The discussion is clearly focused on NATURALS. What in the world does a super heavy NPC guy’s dieting habits have to do with this?
[quote]crazyj23 wrote:
[quote]2020Wellness wrote:
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
You never said how you know this guy is on steroids.[/quote]
It’s clear in his physique, he competes in only untested shows, and he’s seriously aiming to be an IFBB pro. I know his history, and it’s very clear.[/quote]
You can tell someone is on steroids just by looking at them? Does he have track marks? Or is he jsut way more advanced than you? Maybe you should tell your client or whoever it is to talk to the guy on “steroids” for advice.[/quote]
Track marks? Are you making a joke?
the guy competes in untested shows. He’s clearly not natural. Is this really a point of contention for some people? Let’s refer back to Occam’s razor please.
[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
That being said, show me the studies that say someone grows better while fatter than when slightly leaner. Especially given the fact that we are talking about competitive bodybuilders here, something I think which is important to remember, if you can grow at a similar rate while being closer to your competition weight rather than being 10, 20, or even 30 lb heavier, than I think that’s a better approach. It’s not to say that you won’t gain some muscle if you are slightly fatter, but will that really offset the weight you will have to lose to get into competition shape? For a natural, those are serious considerations.
[/quote]
Show you the studies? You mean the billions of studies done on healthy bodybuilders looking to gain the most mass possible who pushed their weights well past 200lbs of lean body mass? Those studies? Are you joking?..or do you really think there is some stack of studies out there like this?
Further, why would anyone assume the guy halting progress to check for abs will grow faster than the guy simply working on growing the fastest?
This isn’t about someone proving it to you. This is about real progress people have made over years using the route they took to get there. What is stupid is looking at guys who clearly grew way more than even more serious trainers and assuming they did it wrong.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I was just talking to one of the guys who competes superheavy in the NPC (he was at the gym training and I recognized him from the videos on the repetrope website). His response to me was that he would often get close to 20% body fat in the off season (he specifically said, “about 18%”)and has been over 300lbs.
.[/quote]
The discussion is clearly focused on NATURALS. What in the world does a super heavy NPC guy’s dieting habits have to do with this? [/quote]
We were discussing how he ate to build most of his foundation. Ignoring the advice of someone at that stage is ridiculous.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I was just talking to one of the guys who competes superheavy in the NPC (he was at the gym training and I recognized him from the videos on the repetrope website). His response to me was that he would often get close to 20% body fat in the off season (he specifically said, “about 18%”)and has been over 300lbs.
.[/quote]
The discussion is clearly focused on NATURALS. What in the world does a super heavy NPC guy’s dieting habits have to do with this? [/quote]
We were discussing how he ate to build most of his foundation. Ignoring the advice of someone at that stage is ridiculous.
[/quote]
Well, this is not what I’m talking about.
I’m talking about experienced bodybuilders, not beginners. I explicitly said.
[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I was just talking to one of the guys who competes superheavy in the NPC (he was at the gym training and I recognized him from the videos on the repetrope website). His response to me was that he would often get close to 20% body fat in the off season (he specifically said, “about 18%”)and has been over 300lbs.
.[/quote]
The discussion is clearly focused on NATURALS. What in the world does a super heavy NPC guy’s dieting habits have to do with this? [/quote]
We were discussing how he ate to build most of his foundation. Ignoring the advice of someone at that stage is ridiculous.
[/quote]
Well, this is not what I’m talking about.
I’m talking about experienced bodybuilders, not beginners. I explicitly said.
[/quote]
Dude, the ONLY people who need to be worried about staying at some exact weight over contest shape…are guys signed up for a contest in the near future who are in the process of getting in shape for it.
That’s it.
No one else even fits into that.
Outside of that, the OP was not speaking to an advanced bodybuilder who was already freaking huge.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I was just talking to one of the guys who competes superheavy in the NPC (he was at the gym training and I recognized him from the videos on the repetrope website). His response to me was that he would often get close to 20% body fat in the off season (he specifically said, “about 18%”)and has been over 300lbs.
.[/quote]
The discussion is clearly focused on NATURALS. What in the world does a super heavy NPC guy’s dieting habits have to do with this? [/quote]
We were discussing how he ate to build most of his foundation. Ignoring the advice of someone at that stage is ridiculous.
[/quote]
Well, this is not what I’m talking about.
I’m talking about experienced bodybuilders, not beginners. I explicitly said.
[/quote]
Dude, the ONLY people who need to be worried about staying at some exact weight over contest shape…are guys signed up for a contest in the near future who are in the process of getting in shape for it.
That’s it.
No one else even fits into that.
Outside of that, the OP was not speaking to an advanced bodybuilder who was already freaking huge.[/quote]
I was under the impression that OP was talking about a natural bodybuilder at an intermediate (or at least past beginner) stage.
Presumably a competitive bodybuilder does have some sort of schedule in mind.
I am not talking about guys that lift and ‘bodybuild’ but do not compete in ‘bodybuilding’. That’s an important distinction, one that I thought was made here.
We are ALL bodybuilding…the decision to compete comes AFTER the massive muscles get built, not before.
If this were some advanced bodybuilder, he should already know how his body responds. No one gets that swole without knowing how their body gains weight.
Further, unless already near your "peak, assuming you need to stay under some certain weight makes no sense. What if you can gain more than the limit you keep placing?
You are picking these numbers out of thin air when the MUSCLE GAINED should be dictating what someone does.
Just to say it…no one cares if you stayed super lean but you aren’t extreme at all in the size built…yet some posters here seem to think how lean they are is the main priority as if muscle gains are based on how lean you are.
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
It kinda frustrates me that a polite, seemingly smart and advanced guy like 2020wellness gets so many bullshit responses in a thread like this. I mean fuck, it’s not like he’s a 130 lbs 17 year old asking how to get big biceps (15"), or some cocky douchebag trolling tnation. People pretending like they don’t get what he’s asking/wanting to discuss, playing dumb just to try and make OP look silly, twisting words, etc.
So much for hallowed’s thinking most people are decent and stuff…shit.
About searching for another thread where this was discussed…shit guys, you all know how that almost always works. Person gets flamed for bumping it. [/quote]
[quote]hungry4more wrote:
It kinda frustrates me that a polite, seemingly smart and advanced guy like 2020wellness gets so many bullshit responses in a thread like this. I mean fuck, it’s not like he’s a 130 lbs 17 year old asking how to get big biceps (15"), or some cocky douchebag trolling tnation. People pretending like they don’t get what he’s asking/wanting to discuss, playing dumb just to try and make OP look silly, twisting words, etc.
So much for hallowed’s thinking most people are decent and stuff…shit.
About searching for another thread where this was discussed…shit guys, you all know how that almost always works. Person gets flamed for bumping it. [/quote]
I’m on the fence with this guy honestly. 2020. Some of his threads def seem geniuine… and if that’s him in the Avi which he says then shit he’s hyooje and that counts around here. However, he has made a bunch of threads lately and I can’t decide if he is genuinely attempting to spark some intelligent BB convo… Or if he’s being Uber condescending. There’s no tone on the internet of course… It’s the body of his new threads taken as a whole that make me wonder.
Also, to drop BB.com on here is Ridic. Why do that unless attempting for.response?
Well, I see the thread has moved on…
EDITING TO ADD: The posted premise of this thread was problematic to me also.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
We are ALL bodybuilding…the decision to compete comes AFTER the massive muscles get built, not before.
If this were some advanced bodybuilder, he should already know how his body responds. No one gets that swole without knowing how their body gains weight.
Further, unless already near your "peak, assuming you need to stay under some certain weight makes no sense. What if you can gain more than the limit you keep placing?
You are picking these numbers out of thin air when the MUSCLE GAINED should be dictating what someone does.
Just to say it…no one cares if you stayed super lean but you aren’t extreme at all in the size built…yet some posters here seem to think how lean they are is the main priority as if muscle gains are based on how lean you are.[/quote]
I agree.
I never have said that one shouldn’t ‘bulk up,’ but I think, especially as a natural, you reach a point where your gains in fat will outweigh your gains in muscle.
All I’m saying is that you should bulk up, but not forget what your goal is, which is two fold. Ultimately whether or not you are super fat or super lean, all that matter is how you look on contest day. That being said, I have seen plenty of natural bodybuilders that have been very bulked, thinking they would be a certain contest weight and in fact being 20 or more pounds less. The way I see it, there is no need to force feed calories once you have passed that initial beginner stage because nothing in the real world has showed me that that will result in significantly greater muscle gain.
I am not at all saying one should have shredded abs or even much in the way of abs year round, but I think some take it to heart that the offseason means eat a ton, watch the scale go up and that automatically = muscle gain when in fact it does not.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
as if muscle gains are based on how lean you are.[/quote]
bu-bu-but insulin sensitivity… fat cell formation… being too out of shape to lift weights…
you mean to tell me that small guy in the nutrition forum lied to me?!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
What’s wrong with not going 20 lbs over contest shape? :D[/quote]
Gee, how about the fact that the body needs to be built before the damned contest is even worried about?
LOL
Let’s see…I could see someone on this forum telling 150lbs me not to go 20lbs over contest weight. I am sure that would have got me to my goals.
That is advice for people who are already competing and are already SWOLE. It is not advice for 98% of the people on this forum.
Further, if someone is that swole, I am sure they can figure out whether they are actually gaining mostly muscle from their practices so why would they need that “advice” anyway?[/quote]
I figured the smiley face would indicate that my statement was a joke. I agree with what you’ve said. How “fat” you need to get to gain muscle steadily is obviously going to depend on genetics. The genetically elite in the staying lean department can gain tons of mass while never losing abs and the rest will have to be a bit softer. Trust me, I grasp/understand this bodybuilding thing very well.
i dont know why 2020 wellness gets so much bs hes one of the only posters that trys to make topics
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]ElevenMag wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Robby Robinson = Natural
???[/quote]
If you read his book has states they all used in the 70’s but essentially they didn’t know what the stuff really was doing to them besides they got bigger. It was actually one of the biggest regrets of his life. What I meant was focusing after his time in bodybuilding shows up until now. I believe he is 64 now and is in great shape, better looking then 99% of anyone on these forums and he stays a very low body fat year round while gaining. It was just an example of this being possible naturally as he is no longer using. Prior drug use didn’t change his DNA and RNA
Check out his website if you curious on his current state, just reading through his blog gives a lot of great insights if you not down for an entire book.[/quote]
Dude, first off, Robby is nowhere near as built as he was in his prime…so making it seem like he is still “growing” is a tad facetious. Further, there aren’t too many guys in their 60’s capable of making gains anywhere near that of even someone just starting in their 40’s. I think you should get a free testosterone pass the moment you hit 55 years of age, but let’s get real here. if you see the average 60 year old “blowing up”…natural it ain’t.
Looking at some guy who trained all his life who is literally running twice as hard just to stay in the same place and claiming he is making gains while lean is ridiculous. he stays lean because lifting is in his soul and he wants to stay in shape after spending a life time being super swole…but I dare you to show me the GAINS being made from it with some before and after shots in his 60’s.
I like Robby…and think he deserved way more credit than he ever got…but I am not sure if you really think he is “making gains” or not.[/quote]
Your probably right with everything you said but I never said he was “making gains”. I said he stated when he was “gaining” or trying the reshape or re-proportion things or whatever someone who has really reached his limit on overall size does. “Gaining” just means a weight gaining phase that makes that goal a little easier and when hes in this phase you can’t even tell the difference when hes in clothes from his super ripped contest stage because his endocrine and metabolism is so effective the fat just goes on all over in a thin layer and doesn’t add in pockets. Sorry if you misunderstood that point. I wasn’t saying the mans still growing.
And I honestly get you needing to tell every newbie who reads this that yes you probably should stop worrying about your abs and get the muscles and then worry about seeing that group of muscles but the question was about a specific already pretty big guy who wants to be like a swole, ripped up 365 days of the year, steroid user he knows while still staying natural. I was merely providing a true example of someone who natural and stays at this very same body fat level year round.
Whether some guy who wants to be “jacked” year round because he sees some other guy on AAS who does it has the same discipline as robby robinson is the question? I’m guessing not but why tell him its impossible, just tell him its not worth the sacrifices he would have to make. Absolutely no junk, everything for nutritional value only, no alcohol, no other drugs, and going to see robby in italy and getting exact training instructions since I really don’t know anyone else who does this sort of thing. I thought it was worth mentioning him though
[quote]Blackaggar wrote:
i dont know why 2020 wellness gets so much bs hes one of the only posters that trys to make topics[/quote]
Some of them are a bit questionable. This one has been discussed but i actually like the discussion it actually prompted some new convo on this topic from some that I like to see in these. Ebomb being one as he is a natty competitor. But i dont agree with the OP as its stated.
And damn you kingbeef for your genetics
[quote]Dissection wrote:
Let him do what he wants.
Seriously, if it works out fine for him, you both win.
If he fucks himself over, he’ll have learned something.
/thread.[/quote]
Kind of glad the thread didn’t end, but at the same time… lol
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Further, why would anyone assume the guy halting progress to check for abs will grow faster than the guy simply working on growing the fastest?
[/quote]
ah the trademark strawman. It was only a matter of time…
Why would YOU assume that progress needs to be halted in order to avoid getting too fat?
Your reliance on that false premise makes this argument as silly as all the others that go down the exact same path.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I was just talking to one of the guys who competes superheavy in the NPC (he was at the gym training and I recognized him from the videos on the repetrope website). His response to me was that he would often get close to 20% body fat in the off season (he specifically said, “about 18%”)and has been over 300lbs.
.[/quote]
The discussion is clearly focused on NATURALS. What in the world does a super heavy NPC guy’s dieting habits have to do with this? [/quote]
We were discussing how he ate to build most of his foundation. Ignoring the advice of someone at that stage is ridiculous.
[/quote]
Taking the advice of someone who has the luxury to use steroids during his contest prep, essentially guaranteeing muscle tissue wont be lost during a long diet, is about as useful as taking advice from you on how to get stage ready.
The game is simply different for guys who use steroids. Trust me. Although you dabbled with some PH’s back in the day I think my experience with this sort of thing gives me a better perspective.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
We are ALL bodybuilding…the decision to compete comes AFTER the massive muscles get built, not before.
[/quote]
Says you.
How convenient that this apparent fact does nothing for the discussion except validate your entire lifting history.