Hoping some of you that have been around the block a few times can help an older guy out here (43 coming too soon). I am NOT calling this an injury (trying to stay positive), but the past couple of workouts I have experienced some right elbow pain.
I’m currently running the basic 5/3/1 format, four days per week with first set last and some assistance. I am badly in need of a weight reset (10 cycles without one), but I am so close to my 1,000 pound club goal on the big 3 that I’d like to push on just a couple more cycles before backing things down. I warm-up thoroughly before lifting each day.
I am wrapping up the 2nd cycle (deloading this week) doing the following:
Monday:
Press 5/3/1 + 1st set last AMRAP
Pull-ups (pronated) 3 sets AMRAP (5-6 normally) between press warm-up sets
Dips (parallel) BW 3 sets x 15
Chin-ups (supinated) 3 sets AMRAP (5-6 normally) alternated with dips
Tuesday:
Conventional Deadlift 5/3/1
T-Bar Swings 3 sets x 15 between deadlift warm-up sets
Stiff Leg Deadlift 3 sets x 10
Ab Wheel 3 sets x 15
Thursday:
Bench Press 5/3/1 + 1st set last AMRAP
Face Pulls 3 sets x 15 between bench press warm-up sets
Incline Dumbbell Press (pronated) 3 sets x 10
One Arm Barbell Row 3 sets x 15 alternated with incline dumbbell press
Friday:
Squat 5/3/1 + 1st set last AMRAP
Hip Thrust 3 sets x 10
Dumbell Curl (mostly supinated - slight twist) 3 sets x 10 alternated with hip thrust
Leg Press 40+ reps in 2 minutes
What assistance work would you suggest that might be more elbow-friendly for the next couple of cycles? I’ve noticed the elbow pain this week so far doing dips and ab wheel (was able to finish, but had to pause and/or reset to do it).
If your elbows ache more than just a little doing an asst. exercise, I would just not do it or try and find an arm position that doesn’t hurt. For example, chinups and pullups hurt my elbows if I am not very careful with grip positions and I won’t do them if I can’t find a grip that works for me. So far, I can get away with a wide grip pullup on and angled bar and a neutral grip chinup; other grips are out of the question. I stopped doing curls altogether because I can’t find a position that doesn’t hurt. If dips cause more than minor discomfort, try and find an arm position that works for you, i.e, different bar width, different body angle of the dip, different grip width, etc., and if nothing works, find something else. Close grip bench, rolling tris, anything that works but doesn’t hurt. Tendonitis-like issue can really get on top of you if you aren’t very proactive about preventing it.
The Monday session you described above can be tough on the elbows. I would replace the dips with close grip benches and the chin-ups with some form of row (barbell, t-bar or low pulley).
I love heavy weighted dips but they can definitely be tough on the elbows, chin-ups can be as well depending on hand placement on the bar and arm positioning. Doing these after OHP’s and pull ups may be the root cause of the problem.
The rest of the week looks fine to me in terms of assistance work.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
If your elbows ache more than just a little doing an asst. exercise, I would just not do it or try and find an arm position that doesn’t hurt. For example, chinups and pullups hurt my elbows if I am not very careful with grip positions and I won’t do them if I can’t find a grip that works for me. So far, I can get away with a wide grip pullup on and angled bar and a neutral grip chinup; other grips are out of the question. I stopped doing curls altogether because I can’t find a position that doesn’t hurt. If dips cause more than minor discomfort, try and find an arm position that works for you, i.e, different bar width, different body angle of the dip, different grip width, etc., and if nothing works, find something else. Close grip bench, rolling tris, anything that works but doesn’t hurt. Tendonitis-like issue can really get on top of you if you aren’t very proactive about preventing it. [/quote]
Damn. I really want to keep progressing on the pull-ups and chin-ups, but you may be on to something. I only have a straight bar to use. I used to be really good at dips at a young age, but now, weighing 220 or so, they may not be liking me so much.
[quote]DBasler wrote:
The Monday session you described above can be tough on the elbows. I would replace the dips with close grip benches and the chin-ups with some form of row (barbell, t-bar or low pulley).
I love heavy weighted dips but they can definitely be tough on the elbows, chin-ups can be as well depending on hand placement on the bar and arm positioning. Doing these after OHP’s and pull ups may be the root cause of the problem.
The rest of the week looks fine to me in terms of assistance work. [/quote]
Seems like a consensus is forming - the chin-ups (I only have a straight bar to use) and dips might be the culprits. A shame, since I know how effective they are. I think a swap for the dips with close-grip bench is in order. I would like to keep a vertical pull in the program, though. Maybe I should just stick to pull-ups (pronated wide grip).
High rep (20+) tricep pulldowns with super light weight on the cable machine before lifting -I take out the pin so I use lightest weight possible. More of the same after lifting, I think I go all the way “up” to 3 plates from 1; superset with high rep barbell curls, also light.
The super light reps before lifting noticeably helped me. The post-lifting reps I do (when I have time) because it makes “brosense” I guess.
Don’t know if you do skull crushers or the one-handed dumbbell overhead tricep extension thing, but those two are what affected my elbows. Also I feel tremendous stress on my elbows from dips so have always avoided those.
[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:
Chin ups/pull ups and dips are fine-If you SQUEEZE THE BAR as if your life depended on it.
When you relax your grip too just enough to do the lift the joint and tendons take all the strain instead of the muscles.–especially the elbow.
And slow down your exercises most elbow pain is caused by being sloppy/tired. [/quote]
Thanks for this. I use the thumb over the bar (false or suicide) grip on pull-ups and dips, thumb wrapped around the bar for chin-ups. Grip tension may be an issue on dips - that’s something I could concentrate on in the future. And I also tend to do dips quickly - another area of improvement possibly.
[quote]punnyguy wrote:
High rep (20+) tricep pulldowns with super light weight on the cable machine before lifting -I take out the pin so I use lightest weight possible. More of the same after lifting, I think I go all the way “up” to 3 plates from 1; superset with high rep barbell curls, also light.
The super light reps before lifting noticeably helped me. The post-lifting reps I do (when I have time) because it makes “brosense” I guess.
Don’t know if you do skull crushers or the one-handed dumbbell overhead tricep extension thing, but those two are what affected my elbows. Also I feel tremendous stress on my elbows from dips so have always avoided those.[/quote]
Haven’t really ever tried an arm/elbow warm-up as you described - might be something to consider.
[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:
Chin ups/pull ups and dips are fine-If you SQUEEZE THE BAR as if your life depended on it.
When you relax your grip too just enough to do the lift the joint and tendons take all the strain instead of the muscles.–especially the elbow.
And slow down your exercises most elbow pain is caused by being sloppy/tired. [/quote]
Thanks for this. I use the thumb over the bar (false or suicide) grip on pull-ups and dips, thumb wrapped around the bar for chin-ups. Grip tension may be an issue on dips - that’s something I could concentrate on in the future. And I also tend to do dips quickly - another area of improvement possibly.[/quote]
don’t false grip the dip or pullup.
If you are not white-knuckled on these you are not gripping hard enough.
Put it this way: If you are doing a vertical pull and you have to release one hand and your grabbing the bar with a false grip - Do you think you can hang on with the grip you have? Compared to a full grip?
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
Can you describe the pain more fully and specifically? Exactly where does it hurt, and which movements aggravate it the most?[/quote]
It’s a pretty sharp “nervy” kind of pain, not an achy pain. I haven’t finished the weekly routine yet, but so far I felt it doing push-ups, dips, and the ab wheel. It seems that if I stop, reset, and try again that I can get through the exercise, but it is a bit distracting (I fell flat on my face/stomach on an ab wheel rep - LOL). It’s hard to pinpoint the exact location of the pain, other than to say it is throughout the elbow joint (outside and inside).
I put an old ace knee wrap on it to help keep it warm and slightly compressed, which seemed to help a LITTLE.
As suggested earlier, I think one thing I may do is dips with a full grip (vs false as I have been), or swapping it out for CGBP for awhile to see if that changes anything.
[quote]DBasler wrote:
The Monday session you described above can be tough on the elbows. I would replace the dips with close grip benches and the chin-ups with some form of row (barbell, t-bar or low pulley).
I love heavy weighted dips but they can definitely be tough on the elbows, chin-ups can be as well depending on hand placement on the bar and arm positioning. Doing these after OHP’s and pull ups may be the root cause of the problem.
The rest of the week looks fine to me in terms of assistance work. [/quote]
Seems like a consensus is forming - the chin-ups (I only have a straight bar to use) and dips might be the culprits. A shame, since I know how effective they are. I think a swap for the dips with close-grip bench is in order. I would like to keep a vertical pull in the program, though. Maybe I should just stick to pull-ups (pronated wide grip).[/quote]
I only have a straight bar also for pullups - but started using a close grip V handle (for rows) over the top of the bar to give a neutral grip. Helped a lot with my elbow pain. Also bought a pair of grips / handles that you can wrap and latch around the bar to allow your arms to rotate. $10 at walmart.
[quote]Grove wrote:
I only have a straight bar also for pullups - but started using a close grip V handle (for rows) over the top of the bar to give a neutral grip. Helped a lot with my elbow pain. Also bought a pair of grips / handles that you can wrap and latch around the bar to allow your arms to rotate. $10 at walmart. [/quote]
The pull-up bar I use is part of a standalone dip/pullup/leg raise station, if you know what I mean. Using a v handle and pulling up perpendicular to the bar isn’t possible in my case due to the back rest getting in the way on one side.
However, the handles wrapping around/latching onto the bar idea is an interesting possibility.
I see overuse in CAPS.
An overuse situation often occurs when a movement is not a proper fit for our particular structure.
Grip is often a key solution.
I had shoulder issues and elbow issues and correct grip was a great help.
In your situation i would rest a week then use rings or any device that allows free movement of the joints.
I bought a kit with a bar to install in a doorframe that came with 2 handles that move/turn freely with hooks.
Since i am tall i put the hooks on some stairs where i can do chinups, pullups… i even do reverse pushups or whatever is the correct name it is basically a mirrored pushup where the gravity factor is reversed and instead of pushing to get higher we pull because we are facing upwards.
For pushups i hold 2 7 pounds dumbbells to be in a neutral position(not round ones).
For pressing i use dumbbells so my joints (wrists, elbows and shoulders are not limited to a strict pattern and an overuse situation.
All the best !
I think based on what I’m hearing that the most likely culprits are dips and chin-ups (supinated) on a straight bar.
I am planning to swap out the dips for CGBP and the chin-ups (supinated) for more pull-ups (pronated). I like to predominantly pull vertically one day and horizontally on another, so I’ll give this a shot for a couple cycles (8 weeks total) unless the pain persists.
I may invest in some pull-up handles that wrap or hook around the straight bar in order to be able to use more of a semi-supinated (angled) or neutral grip in the future. I always felt torque on the wrists doing chin-ups (supinated) on the straight bar, but it took a number of months before this elbow thing popped up.
Just a quick follow-up: after replacing dips with CGBP and supinated chin-ups with pronated wide grip pull-ups, my elbow pain is completely gone. Didn’t even take a week.
I bought some handles that will allow me to do pullups and chin-ups more freely as far as grip goes, so we’ll see how that goes. And as far as dips - going to take a couple months off before possibly trying them again - this time using a full grip tightly clenched.