[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
maybe you want to have a gay entourage
that would be the pinnacle of your manhood according to X lol [/quote]
…how old are you?
[quote]myosaurus wrote:
who’s to say that 20 yr old will not get sick of BB and start seeking other interest? many quit training before their 10 yr mark. [/quote]
This is another big reason why, imo, waiting until one is a bit older is advisable. This is not a knock on anyone’s intelligence or even dedication: zraw and Walkway, e.g., are both still quite young enough that they may decide that being serious about lifting doesn’t fit into their life plan/goals a few years from now. At that point, the AAS use will probably be regarded as a mistake.
Kids, a serious profession, etc. can really change a person’s view on what’s valuable, and a lot of those changes are still going on up to around age 30 or so.
yes always make it personal when you run out of shit to say
bro I give my point of view
you give yours
thats how forums work
you dont like mine thats fine just move along
old enough to kno better than to shamelessly promote roids for young lifters.
[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
yes always make it personal when you run out of shit to say
bro I give my point of view
you give yours
thats how forums work
you dont like mine thats fine just move along
old enough to kno better than to shamelessly promote roids for young lifters.[/quote]
way to miss the point of this thread…holy shit go to bbing.com ffs
[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
[quote]Waittz wrote:
Pretty cool thread, havrnt read all of it yet but here is my contribution. It is long, so here are the cliff notes. Vitamin S is only a catalyst, not a mircale solution. Anyone who has a problem with someone taking them is a hater and a hypocrit if they like fake boobies. Mind your damned business and worry about yourself.
Maybe this analogy will make sense, i am doing very well for my age financially. I work hard and smart, study and read alot in my spare time and perform my best building the business i run for the parent company. I started in entry level and worked my way up the ladder very fast and for five years. I happen to have contacts in the organization that opened all of my doors, contacts that others didnt have. Without those contacts, i wouldnt be where i am today, i would still be doing good, still over performing and doing things on my own time and rising up, but i wouldnt have had the same doors open for me. That being said, i am still jusged and paid based on my performance, not my contacts and would never be where i am if i didnt bust my ass.
[/quote]
good analogy bro
but when its time for a little penis stroking guess who those contacts are gonna call lol
at the end of the day you are their slave the same way steroid users are to their drugs.
you get something you give something away just a matter of weighting pro nd cons
and no matter how you slice it there are no overwhelming benefits to it
you can still build a decent physique and get pussy without the extra expense (both wallet and health) so wtf is the point
you want to be a PRO ? get ready of a real rough path
[/quote]
Did someone who takes steroids like beat you up or something?
[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
[quote]Waittz wrote:
Pretty cool thread, havrnt read all of it yet but here is my contribution. It is long, so here are the cliff notes. Vitamin S is only a catalyst, not a mircale solution. Anyone who has a problem with someone taking them is a hater and a hypocrit if they like fake boobies. Mind your damned business and worry about yourself.
Maybe this analogy will make sense, i am doing very well for my age financially. I work hard and smart, study and read alot in my spare time and perform my best building the business i run for the parent company. I started in entry level and worked my way up the ladder very fast and for five years. I happen to have contacts in the organization that opened all of my doors, contacts that others didnt have. Without those contacts, i wouldnt be where i am today, i would still be doing good, still over performing and doing things on my own time and rising up, but i wouldnt have had the same doors open for me. That being said, i am still jusged and paid based on my performance, not my contacts and would never be where i am if i didnt bust my ass.
[/quote]
good analogy bro
but when its time for a little penis stroking guess who those contacts are gonna call lol
at the end of the day you are their slave the same way steroid users are to their drugs.
you get something you give something away just a matter of weighting pro nd cons
and no matter how you slice it there are no overwhelming benefits to it
you can still build a decent physique and get pussy without the extra expense (both wallet and health) so wtf is the point
you want to be a PRO ? get ready of a real rough path
[/quote]
Ok… seriously… how old are you?
The mental block for me is that the gains made are all temporary, and things like heart lesions, benign liver tumor ruptures, and the unknowns around the kidneys can’t be monitored. Oh and of course, left ventricular hypertrophy and possible ejection fraction problems.
Regarding temporary:
on:
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5353/goldgym160a.jpg
off:
http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/blog/image.axd?picture=2011%2F10%2FIMG00028-20101113-1051a.jpg
It’s depressing in a way that the physiques at that level are simply all drugs.
[quote]Adren wrote:
Regarding temporary:
on:
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5353/goldgym160a.jpg
off:
http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/blog/image.axd?picture=2011%2F10%2FIMG00028-20101113-1051a.jpg
It’s depressing in a way that the physiques at that level are simply all drugs. [/quote]
all hypertrophy gains are “temporary”…
stop training, guess what happens?
and all the side effects u mentioned happen as a result of irresponsible dosages of irresponsible drugs without responsible monitoring…
no idea wtf a “heart lesion” is though… first ive heard of that one
and guess what? assuming u lift with any intensity (or even at all), which is questionable… ur heart has hypertrophied…
better head to the doc’s office
so glad I put that ronald guy on ignore
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
so glad I put that ronald guy on ignore[/quote]
bout to put a lot of these fucks on ignore.
they shouldnt even be here lmao
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]Adren wrote:
Regarding temporary:
on:
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5353/goldgym160a.jpg
off:
http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/blog/image.axd?picture=2011%2F10%2FIMG00028-20101113-1051a.jpg
It’s depressing in a way that the physiques at that level are simply all drugs. [/quote]
all hypertrophy gains are “temporary”…
stop training, guess what happens?
and all the side effects u mentioned happen as a result of irresponsible dosages of irresponsible drugs without responsible monitoring…
no idea wtf a “heart lesion” is though… first ive heard of that one
and guess what? assuming u lift with any intensity (or even at all), which is questionable… ur heart has hypertrophied…
better head to the doc’s office[/quote]
Cardiac lesions induced by testosterone: protective effects of dexrazoxane and trimetazidine.
worth a read also:
High-Dose Testosterone Propionate Treatment Reverses the Effects of Endurance Training on Myocardial Antioxidant Defenses in Adolescent Male Rats
And no those sides don’t happen with irreponsible dosages…they can happen with TRT doses. In fact, the insert on pharm test warns against liver tumors as a possible side effect. Are they likely with TRT doses? No, but possible…but no one here is discussing TRT doses anyway. Benign tumors are fairly common according to doctors, but the risk is them enlarging to uncommon size due to AAS and bursting…they also do not shrink once enlarged. A guy over at PM had to call it quits after one protruded enough to cause some severe stomach pain and ended up in ER. His max dosage in his career was 1.5 grams with minimal to no oral use or GH…not TRT level, but not exactly shocking dosages for a competitor.
Heart enlargement due to AAS is different than lifting. The difference can be seen by a doctor on an echo.
I used to believe AAS could be used safely over time, but not so much anymore. There will always be an effect on your body at supraphysiological doses used repeatedly over lengths of time, the question is will you ever see or feel that effect to know? Hopefully not.
[quote]Adren wrote:
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
[quote]Adren wrote:
Regarding temporary:
on:
off:
http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/blog/image.axd?picture=2011%2F10%2FIMG00028-20101113-1051a.jpg
It’s depressing in a way that the physiques at that level are simply all drugs. [/quote]
all hypertrophy gains are “temporary”…
stop training, guess what happens?
and all the side effects u mentioned happen as a result of irresponsible dosages of irresponsible drugs without responsible monitoring…
no idea wtf a “heart lesion” is though… first ive heard of that one
and guess what? assuming u lift with any intensity (or even at all), which is questionable… ur heart has hypertrophied…
better head to the doc’s office[/quote]
Cardiac lesions induced by testosterone: protective effects of dexrazoxane and trimetazidine.
worth a read also:
High-Dose Testosterone Propionate Treatment Reverses the Effects of Endurance Training on Myocardial Antioxidant Defenses in Adolescent Male Rats
And no those sides don’t happen with irreponsible dosages…they can happen with TRT doses. In fact, the insert on pharm test warns against liver tumors as a possible side effect. Are they likely with TRT doses? No, but possible…but no one here is discussing TRT doses anyway. Benign tumors are fairly common according to doctors, but the risk is them enlarging to uncommon size due to AAS and bursting…they also do not shrink once enlarged. A guy over at PM had to call it quits after one protruded enough to cause some severe stomach pain and ended up in ER. His max dosage in his career was 1.5 grams with minimal to no oral use or GH…not TRT level, but not exactly shocking dosages for a competitor.
Heart enlargement due to AAS is different than lifting. The difference can be seen by a doctor on an echo.
I used to believe AAS could be used safely over time, but not so much anymore. There will always be an effect on your body at supraphysiological doses used repeatedly over lengths of time, the question is will you ever see or feel that effect to know? Hopefully not.
[/quote]
rat and rabbit studies…one doesnt mention dose, the other is 80mg/kg of bodyweight… in other words, for someone my weight… roughly 7.2 grams of testosterone a week, DEFINITELY trt…
you sure know ur shit lmao.
and for the poor sob at PM, yeah ive read about his deal… there’s more to it than he is letting on to btw
whenever ur done with ur rodent studies, have a look at that japanese girl who was given anadrol for numerous years and developed tumors on her liver, that went away upon cessation.
what exactly do you think androgen-dependent tumors are dependent upon the presence of? ill give you a hint… it’s in the same
[quote]optheta wrote:
So your telling me a guy who takes AAS spends hundreds of dollars on the stuff wouldn’t want to figure out what works for him? Your kidding me? Just because you hear of people cycling and doing Fckall to make progress is hardly representative of majority of steroid users.
Its no different then the countless Natties who dump money into supplements and make no gains either.
[/quote]
Speaking only for myself…NO that is not what I am saying.
What I am saying is that over the course of 27 years in the gym the overwhelming majority of junior lifters that I know of personaly that chose to use ASS were not training/eating/resting properly at the time they made the decision and did not do so during their use. Usually they didn’t even know enough about training or nutrition to direct/guide their progress, make adjustments, etc. Most of them just repeat the yo-yo a couple of times and disappear never to be seen again. When I recognize the symptoms I suggest caution.
If a lifter has done the work to educate themselves, takes a conservative/conventional approach to begin with, monitors progress, and makes appropriate adjustments over time; that is a different story altogether. I may not agree with the decision at that point in time, but I respect the work/discipline and ‘mastery of craft’.
[quote]tworkinhard wrote:
Mastery - Comprehensive knowledge or skill in a subject or accomplishment.
Craft - Skill in doing or making something.
Mastery of the craft of bodybuilding means applying different training, diet, and recovery techniques/theories/approaches over weeks, months, years with the goal of gradually learning more and more about your body… and maybe even bodybuilding in general (tenants/principles that apply to other people too, not just you). Years of hard work, critical analysis, and experimentation lead to a large body (pun intended) of knowledge as to what works FOR YOU.
…regardless of whether or not that person is using AAS. [/quote]
Well said…regardless.
[quote]myosaurus wrote:
who’s to say that 20 yr old will not get sick of BB and start seeking other interest? many quit training before their 10 yr mark. you’ve all seen those ‘‘jack of all trades’’ who seem to have new favorite song every week. those personalities lack passion and wont last in BB and soon grow to regret the choices they made. for those who aren’t, fuck it go for it. if you’re gonna go pro then start early and enjoy nice run in the career(Shawn Ray, levrone comes to mind). Just be realistic and make sure you’re cut out for BB.
BTW, Zraw, is that the avatar you’ve always had? you’re looking friggin jacked now![/quote]
But couldnt one argue that nowadays how one will know if he’s cut out for bbing will be by starting to use drugs and see how he responds to it? (not me saying ppl should jump on to see if they can turn pro here)
To me the muscle bellies and capacity to gain muscles are important factors but response to drugs and capacity to tolerate it are just as important factors in this sport, if not more
As far as my avatar is concerned ive had it for about 2-3 months 
thx!!
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
And think about this for a minute, if you are natural, then your joints and tendons are going to take a hammering. Chances are you are going to pick up some kind of major injury at some point, or wear your joints out to some extent. With the proper drugs, you will find it much much more difficult to get injured, esp if you throw in GH. You can get to the same level of strength you could have naturally without the wear and tear you accumulated doing it the hard way.[/quote]
I’ve actually heard the exact opposite from people who used.[/quote]
I should have emphasised “with the proper drugs”. It’s also possible to completely fuck yourself up if you use the wrong drugs.
[quote]The3Commandments wrote:
[quote]myosaurus wrote:
who’s to say that 20 yr old will not get sick of BB and start seeking other interest? many quit training before their 10 yr mark. [/quote]
This is another big reason why, imo, waiting until one is a bit older is advisable. This is not a knock on anyone’s intelligence or even dedication: zraw and Walkway, e.g., are both still quite young enough that they may decide that being serious about lifting doesn’t fit into their life plan/goals a few years from now. At that point, the AAS use will probably be regarded as a mistake.
Kids, a serious profession, etc. can really change a person’s view on what’s valuable, and a lot of those changes are still going on up to around age 30 or so.
[/quote]
Quality posts.
I would guess most guys enter into bodybuilding as a “hobby”, not a career path. Like other hobbies, one can still fully participate and enjoy the rewards of the activity without buying all the latest and greatest toys/gadgets/upgrades etc (this case being drugs). Sure, you are not going to be at the top of that hobby without these things, but again you can fully experience the great activity.
The thing is with other hobbies, once you lose interest you end up with a garage full of expensive crap, here you may have risked the quality and quantity of your life and perhaps some legal trouble as well, not to mention the cash investment. One could argue you get more bang for your buck vs supplements though.
Also young guys tend to have an air of invincibility, believing any negatives happen to other people and never themselves. Consider side effects from drug use as under-reported like STDs. No one wants to admit to an STD, it makes them look foolish, like they did something stupid to themselves. Same with steroids, unless I am totally honest and want to prevent someone else from making a potential mistake, I am going to hide/downplay any negative sides so I don’t look like a moron for ‘doing this to myself for the sake and being big and strong’, so one could assume the side effects are much more common than generally communicated. Along the same lines, if someone is bold/honest enough to admit taking 1 gram of something, assume double that dosage plus 3 other agents…again an attempt to not look stupid.
Time, age, family and world/life experiences can change one’s perspective on the importance of being huge and ripped, unfortunately beginners have none of that to reference. I recommend trying out the ‘hobby’ first for a period of time, get a real lay of the land, establish your goals and if your goals require steroids, be sure your goals are really worth that jump.
zraw is old as fuck im only 23 
[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
zraw is old as fuck im only 23 ;)[/quote]
Fml haha