Early Gear Use to Reach Goals

Training
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[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I can print out a copy of a painting and hang wonderful artwork on my wall. Or I could learn practice and paint (probably not as nice) artwork and hang that up. Both get you from point A to point B, so why would you ever paint? The printer is just a tool…

If we are really talking about just the destination, why not synthol from day 1? Why diet when you can liposuction?

To some of us, the journey means something and missing it is stupid.

Zraw, do you get upset with guys that use synthol or implants or other surgery to look better than you?[/quote]

Are steroid users “missing the journey”? I feel like this is a huge misconception. I’ll echo what others have mentioned. Serious bodybuilders who use are still reaping all the benefits of the journey. They just happen to get better results to go along with it. If 2 trainees train hard every day, eat right, etc, but one is natty and one isn’t, what’s the difference in the journey? Results and that’s it.

FTR, the only reason I don’t use is the legality factor. As hard as it is to get caught, I still can’t bring myself to take that risk. And money too I guess, but that’s secondary.

As to ZRAW’s original question. My opinion is that if a person’s done the proper research and knows how to safely use AAS, they should go for it. What I often see on message boards (like ones here) is poor education. That’s when I think young guys/ new trainees should tap the brakes. They post ridiculous protocols, no PCT, really weird amounts/combinations, etc. This, in my opinion, is where the bigger problem lies.[/quote]

The smart reason not to use is dependence. Why would you want to create an artificial infrastructure that is not only `temporary’ but requires constant maintenance (which by the way can have a hefty cost). The latter point is innate to bodybuilding because you will start losing muscle if you don’t keep training hard, eating right and recovering properly. However, steroids add a whole layer of complexity to that and have a steeper decline curve from ceases in maintenance.

It’s basically a case of, I can look really good, then settle for just good after I stop using or I can slowly keep on looking good without ever using. The end result is the same but some people find happiness in that period of use, and good for them. The best guys who use are the ones who know they will eventually deflate but they still keep on smiling (have a good attitude and don’t act holier than thou).

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If you don’t look like you take roids then you are loser. ~ general consensus among most butthurt Natties

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personal opinion:

you should only take drugs to improve your physique if you plan on either competing at a high level and/or obtain an income from your body. by high level comp i mean national amateur level at least.

you will almost certainly not know if you can do either of these straight off the bat/ extremely early in your training unless you have excellent genetics. therefore you should invest an appropriate amount of time first knowing it’s just not a fad for you, that you are dedicated to ‘the lifestyle’ imo that would be at least 3-5 years and not 6 months.

things that i think need to be considered:

  • steroids are illegal. you can get prosecuted over them. it does happen alot, just read other boards. ‘yeah they got involved in dealing or this or that etc’ maybe that will happen to you too. i doubt many of those guys set out with the aim of prosecution due to getting big muscles.
  • fake gear. how much can you really trust your sources? probably NEVER 100% all of the time for the rest of your life (if you stay on for the next 50 years). so you are willing to inject any old random shit into yourself not knowing what effect it could have?
  • becoming addicted and therefore taking more drugs/ longer periods. blasting/cruising is insanity imo unless you plan to be very serious over competing.
  • the stress this unnatural extra size causes from both drugs and over eating over the course of many years.
  • the strong likelihood you will want to eventually take harsher substances like gh, insulin, tren. sweating constantly all night while you sleep due to tren? does that sound healthy to you? injecting insulin can literally result in your death. gh making the bones in your skull grow? yes this is partially linked to abuse, how do you know you won’t become an abuser?
  • the effect on your self worth: becoming depressed and obsessed over the size of your arms, how lean you are etc. is this really worth it? just to bang a few extra women in your 20s?
  • the impact on your health: you can have blood tests etc but the body is extremely complicated and not black and white. a recent story on another board: young guy in his twenties getting blood test etc got ill for some other reason. dr found some tumour (which he would have had anyway), was growing massively as a result of him injecting hormones. guy quit immediately, pure luck it was found and he did not eventually die as a result. maybe this is 1 in 1000 and will never happen to you. how do you know? again, worth this risk just to look well built on the beach?

THIS IS NOT MEANT TO START AN ARGUMENT

just my opinion people can do what they want but injecting hormones is a serious business and should only be undertaken after a long period of training and thinking, if at all.

of course chances are you will be fine. young people take tons and tons of rec drugs and alcohol and drive too fast etc and dont end up dead.

however some do, and some will get seriously ill as a result of one day thinking im gonna take drugs so my muscles look good.

i would advise those thinking of taking drugs to read other boards where legal and health problems are discussed at length.

someone deciding to take drugs straight off the bat is a fucking moron as far as i am concerned.

125

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:

[quote]Cron391 wrote:

Can you post any link for that? That’s THE only thing preventing me from hoping on forever…
Fuck I’d just stay on tren forever if I could :smiley:

[/quote]

there are no documented cases of aas use (and even long-term abuse I.E. staying on for a decade at high doses) causing permanent sterility… every case of infertility has been reversed.

trust me, i researched it extensively as i was in the same boat as you are in currently[/quote]

Walkway I could fucking kiss you man

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Isn’t this all goal dependent? I would like to use eventually, but I don’t want to do harsh cycles and be “on” for the rest of my life. However, if my goal was to look like Evan Centopani, you be I’d have to take anabolics, GH, and insulin in big doses starting early on. I think there’s a night and day difference between the commitment I’d make vs the commitment someone with pro ambitions would make.

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[quote]browndisaster wrote:
Isn’t this all goal dependent? I would like to use eventually, but I don’t want to do harsh cycles and be “on” for the rest of my life. However, if my goal was to look like Evan Centopani, you be I’d have to take anabolics, GH, and insulin in big doses starting early on. I think there’s a night and day difference between the commitment I’d make vs the commitment someone with pro ambitions would make.[/quote]

doses/compounds/duration are goal-dependent yes

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I’ve been thinking about using for ages even though i have modest goals. I would be happy to reach 200lb at 10% BF at almost 6’2. I’m currently 197lbs and probably like 18% having bulked up from 135lbs in 2 years. I started lifting pretty late at 23. The biggest problem is because i started so anorexic, my gains have pretty much just made me a more normal size. If i started at an average 180lb or something i would be pretty big by now with 2 years work. I also look a lot smaller for my weight because i have really narrow clavicles, and i just want my look to represent the amount of hard work i put in. I want to look like someone thats obsessed with lifting, not just be one. I don’t know if i will ever get that look naturally with my frame, but gear would sure speed it up and help me find out a lot quicker. I’m also fairly certain i have poor hormones for muscle building, so would probably respond massively to a modest dose of test.

The only reason i haven’t started yet is because im worried about the long term effects and that once i start i will never want to train natural again.

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Everyone is so different.

There are no two individuals whose physiology reacts exactly the same to any substance be it food, supplements, or the “special stuff”. There are some guidelines that are great to follow when starting up, but in the end each individual has to find what works best for them. And to do this, one often has to take that risk of “just do it”.

With everything, I believe one has to carefully approach each encounter with something new cautiously and with a mindset for learning from that experience. This is the only way one can determine if something is working proper for them, or if some negative effects are beginning to manifest. Smart (but expensive) approaches to most things would be to get as much baseline information about oneself BEFORE embarking on ANY intake or injection of new foods, supplements, or drugs.

It has been my observation that the “general” (note: I did not say EVERYONE here)“late” user of anabolics (late defined as roughly at least 5 years of legit training/diet)who decide to take the assisted route end up remaining in the iron game whether they continue using or not. This is not the case with the “general” newbie who starts rather early.

Note again I did not say EVERYONE. And this is simply my personal observation which I realize is not even a smidgeon value compared to the overall lifting population out there.

It is also my observation that the ones who make the best progress off of anabolics are those who have hemmed and hawed about it for years, studied up on it (maybe going overboard on this study)because these are the ones who do take a scientific approach to usage. They will avoid the side effects (there ARE side effects), and have a wonderful long training life that is assisted appropriately.

IF a new trainer decides to use anabolics to help get to their goal faster, I have NO issues with this. My only thought would be concern that they understand what they are doing, and concern that they may not realize how their own physiology works by experimenting 1st with proper training and nutrition (unassisted). But if they don’t care, then who am I to say or judge their decisions?

Steroids are NOT evil. As so many have indicated on this thread, they are a tool. In my opinion, steroids are no different than the latest new bodybuilding or health supplement out there.

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[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
It has been my observation that the “general” (note: I did not say EVERYONE here)“late” user of anabolics (late defined as roughly at least 5 years of legit training/diet)who decide to take the assisted route end up remaining in the iron game whether they continue using or not. This is not the case with the “general” newbie who starts rather early. [/quote]

I agree. You have to really love this at its base to stick with it throughout an entire life time…and dear God, I know tons of guys who were so loud and in your face about how serious they were and what contests they were doing…who ten to twenty years later don’t even lift regularly that I personally see it as a hindrance on that basis alone.

Life doesn’t get easier after you get out of school and if you were taking the easy way out when times were less difficult, honestly, what will happen when the shit hits the fan?

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[quote]optheta wrote:
If you don’t look like you take roids then you are loser. ~ general consensus among most butthurt Natties[/quote]

isn’t it true though?

i don’t understand why some steroid users want people to be impressed with their natty looking physiques?

steroids let you make gains without having to worry so much about recovery time or nutrition or that their routine sucks.

but if you are using it to get to a physique faster, maybe it’s okay, but not impressive or anything. don’t see why it would be when there are bigger natties around

132

[quote]Mr. Walkway wrote:
real talk tho…

if you are going to juice (at any age really), be prepared to be on trt for the rest of your life once you hit a certain age… it becomes almost an inevitability.

having said that, it actually IS better to juice in your 20’s than it is in your 30’s… why? as ive said before…

-easier to recover health indicators
-less side-effects
-your life is probably going to be more complicated in your 30’s than it is right now

[/quote]
Not sure what you mean by “Once you hit a certain age”, but I ran probably 10-12 cycles throughout my 20’s and I’m 44 with test levels of a 25 year old. No TRT here man. That’s where educating yourself properly before doing a cycle comes in. You couldn’t be more wrong here Walkway.

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[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
For the guys who take steroids - do you feel better on cycle as compared to off cycle? Not physique related, but your actual quality of life?[/quote]

I’ve never used but I would imagine that you feel great when you’re on lol.

Increased strength.
Increased size.
Loss of body fat.
Increased libido.
Increased vascularity.
Increased ability to recover.

Sounds friggin awesome lol.

I would also imagine that you would feel like your normal/before self when you come off but that feeling this way, which you always accepted as normal, would suck after experiencing things from the other side.

But guys with some actual experience with AAS use can comment because I could be way off in left field with my thoughts lol[/quote]

Not sure about the friggin Awesome part, but yes you feel pretty good most of the time. Kind of an overall self of well being. I have been down both roads after coming off though. I crashed when my pct was shitty and had the smoothest ride back to normal when my PCT taper was dead on. Like Walkway said… Everybody will have a different experience.

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[quote]optheta wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
I base my level of respect toward other lifters on their work ethic and mastery of craft. There have been few occasions during my years in the gym when a junior lifter has demonstrated both. The vast majority of the youngsters I have known that chose to go the ASS route were not training/eating properly to begin with and were looking to avoid hard work, not augment it. There could be exceptions…but they are rare. [/quote]

I’m sorry I didn’t get the memo telling me BBing was really hard to learn…[/quote]

Spoken like a youngster that still has the ‘someone else buys my shitpaper’ smile on their face. [/quote]

Srs question what is Mastery of the Craft of BBing? [/quote]

Mastery - Comprehensive knowledge or skill in a subject or accomplishment.
Craft - Skill in doing or making something.

Not trying to be a dick, but this kinda raised my eyebrows. To me, mastery of the craft of bodybuilding means applying different training, diet, and recovery techniques/theories/approaches over weeks, months, years with the goal of gradually learning more and more about your body… and maybe even bodybuilding in general (tenants/principles that apply to other people too, not just you). Years of hard work, critical analysis, and experimentation lead to a large body (pun intended) of knowledge as to what works FOR YOU.
IMHO, when certain people use steroids, they have less incentive to master the craft of bodybuilding. Why take the time to figure out what works for your body when you can take some of the thinking/trial & error/hard work out of the equation with AAS? There is nothing inherently wrong with this approach; as zraw said, if a person’s goal is to “rent” a physique for a certain length of time, knowing that when they discontinue AAS they have to “return” most of what they rented, then it’s all good. To each their own. Personally however, I have more respect for and more in common with a “thinking man’s bodybuilder” - someone who desires to master their body and its potential, regardless of whether or not that person is using AAS.

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[quote]AzCats wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
For the guys who take steroids - do you feel better on cycle as compared to off cycle? Not physique related, but your actual quality of life?[/quote]

I’ve never used but I would imagine that you feel great when you’re on lol.

Increased strength.
Increased size.
Loss of body fat.
Increased libido.
Increased vascularity.
Increased ability to recover.

Sounds friggin awesome lol.

I would also imagine that you would feel like your normal/before self when you come off but that feeling this way, which you always accepted as normal, would suck after experiencing things from the other side.

But guys with some actual experience with AAS use can comment because I could be way off in left field with my thoughts lol[/quote]

Not sure about the friggin Awesome part, but yes you feel pretty good most of the time. Kind of an overall self of well being. I have been down both roads after coming off though. I crashed when my pct was shitty and had the smoothest ride back to normal when my PCT taper was dead on. Like Walkway said… Everybody will have a different experience.[/quote]

you are by no means the typical case.

what did your last bloodwork put your test levels at? and how long ago was it?

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As a kind of an off shoot of this question…

How would you guys feel about someone who is a little older, been in the iron game for a while, knows a few things about training and nutrition and has built a good physique.

What if said individuals life becomes much busier and they aren’t able to dedicate the same time and effort that they once were.

What if that person wasn’t able to “put in the work” anymore and decided to use in order to maintain/possibly improve their current physique with less effort?

How would you guys feel about that individual? Somewhat similar to the young kid but with just different circumstances.

137

[quote]gregron wrote:
As a kind of an off shoot of this question…

How would you guys feel about someone who is a little older, been in the iron game for a while, knows a few things about training and nutrition and has built a good physique.

What if said individuals life becomes much busier and they aren’t able to dedicate the same time and effort that they once were.

What if that person wasn’t able to “put in the work” anymore and decided to use in order to maintain/possibly improve their current physique with less effort?

How would you guys feel about that individual? Somewhat similar to the young kid but with just different circumstances.[/quote]

there’s nothing wrong with anyone using aas/gh/peptides/slin anything

anyone who gives a fuck is a fucking joke… this is supposed to be a fucking bodybuilding forum lmao…

these clowns have annoyed the shit out of every every poster here that went on to be an IFBB pro

a lot of people here should be ashamed of themselves and keep their fucking shit to themselves

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sorry^ roid rage

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dave draper

Just putting this here…I like this guy view on life and bodybuilding.

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no one needs justification/validation from others in order to use drugs

if you use, know that there are side effects, and be willing to accept them. It’s a personal choice…

whether people respect you or not because of your choice to use, that is a completely different topic. Using drugs obviously raises the bar

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I think that it does not matter if it is early in your training career or you are a vet. It all depends on personal goals and how fast you want to get there. I personally would have most likely jumped on a while ago if I was not almost positive that I would break out in acne. Same reason I do not eat dirty, or over processed food I honestly could not care less about how healthy it may or may not be but, it breaks me out and pimples means no work.