[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
But I still want my analogy to work, so I’ll change it a lil bit. How about using examples of a stock 3 series BMW versus a modified M3? You’ve juiced up (see what I did there) the base model, but it’s still the same car essentially… you’ve just done some things to it to improve the driving experience. Is that better?[/quote]
SMG or 6 speed?
[/quote]
We’ll go with SMG.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
So, who here thinks I should start at my current level?[/quote]
Go for it.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
If it makes you happy, do it… I don’t think it really matters in the end. Being a juice monkey doesn’t get you far in life.[/quote]
Got it.
So, what exactly is a juice monkey?
I’m guessing it’s anyone who’s bigger than you, lol.[/quote]
Haha. I train in a gym with a lot of young guys (18-20 years old) using huge amount of steroids.They are not bigger than me and don’t train hard. They are still steroid monkey to me
It’s all about the vibe and the acne.
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Are steroid users “missing the journey”? [/quote]
If I drive 2000 miles to get there and you find a shortcut and only have to drive 200 miles, you had to miss something.[/quote]
I don’t think that’s a good analogy. Again, both trainees in my scenario are doing the same shit in the gym. To me, it’s more like the difference between driving that 2000 miles in a ford escort versus doing it in a BMW convertible. Same distance traveled (same time put into training), but you’re getting more out of the ride in the BMW.[/quote]
Your analogy doesn’t hold. you have the same body at the start and end.
You could compare it to driving faster, but you still miss shit. [/quote]
I thought about the driving faster analogy too, lol. I kinda don’t hate that one. Driving fast is an experience in and of itself, and there are plenty of people who dig that more than driving slow and ‘taking it all in’ or whatever. So it ends up being a personal preference for what you want to experience.
But I still want my analogy to work, so I’ll change it a lil bit. How about using examples of a stock 3 series BMW versus a modified M3? You’ve juiced up (see what I did there) the base model, but it’s still the same car essentially… you’ve just done some things to it to improve the driving experience. Is that better?[/quote]
Consider that you have purchased the 3 series, but are renting the M3. Perhaps you had a great time; however you are going to have to pay a perpetual lease or return the M3 after the trip is over. You will also need an explination about what happened to the M3 if you choose return it; unless of course everbody knows you don’t own the car from the start.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
Consider that you have purchased the 3 series, but are renting the M3. Perhaps you had a great time; however you are going to have to pay a perpetual lease or return the M3 after the trip is over. You will also need an explination about what happened to the M3 if you choose return it; unless of course everbody knows it’s not really your car from the start. [/quote]
Or they could choose not to explain it so everyone can just think the M3 got sick.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
So, who here thinks I should start at my current level?[/quote]
Go for it.[/quote]
I’m going in for some blood work and planning on having a list of things checked. My biggest problem is a propensity for heart disease.
I base my level of respect toward other lifters on their work ethic and mastery of craft. There have been few occasions during my years in the gym when a junior lifter has demonstrated both. The vast majority of the youngsters I have known that chose to go the ASS route were not training/eating properly to begin with and were looking to avoid hard work, not augment it. There could be exceptions…but they are rare.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
I base my level of respect toward other lifters on their work ethic and mastery of craft. There have been few occasions during my years in the gym when a junior lifter has demonstrated both. The vast majority of the youngsters I have known that chose to go the ASS route were not training/eating properly to begin with and were looking to avoid hard work, not augment it. There could be exceptions…but they are rare. [/quote]
I’m sorry I didn’t get the memo telling me BBing was really hard to learn…
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
So, who here thinks I should start at my current level?[/quote]
Go for it.[/quote]
I’m going in for some blood work and planning on having a list of things checked. My biggest problem is a propensity for heart disease.[/quote]
Well gotta keep priority number one not dying of a heart attack obviously lol.
If I were in your shoes I would probably be looking about now. I don’t think I’ll ever do anything fancy though. Just something mild like low dosing some extra test. Who knows though, I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it.
[quote]optheta wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
I base my level of respect toward other lifters on their work ethic and mastery of craft. There have been few occasions during my years in the gym when a junior lifter has demonstrated both. The vast majority of the youngsters I have known that chose to go the ASS route were not training/eating properly to begin with and were looking to avoid hard work, not augment it. There could be exceptions…but they are rare. [/quote]
I’m sorry I didn’t get the memo telling me BBing was really hard to learn…[/quote]
Spoken like a youngster that still has the ‘someone else buys my shitpaper’ smile on their face.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Are steroid users “missing the journey”? [/quote]
If I drive 2000 miles to get there and you find a shortcut and only have to drive 200 miles, you had to miss something.[/quote]
I don’t think that’s a good analogy. Again, both trainees in my scenario are doing the same shit in the gym. To me, it’s more like the difference between driving that 2000 miles in a ford escort versus doing it in a BMW convertible. Same distance traveled (same time put into training), but you’re getting more out of the ride in the BMW.[/quote]
Your analogy doesn’t hold. you have the same body at the start and end.
You could compare it to driving faster, but you still miss shit. [/quote]
I thought about the driving faster analogy too, lol. I kinda don’t hate that one. Driving fast is an experience in and of itself, and there are plenty of people who dig that more than driving slow and ‘taking it all in’ or whatever. So it ends up being a personal preference for what you want to experience.
But I still want my analogy to work, so I’ll change it a lil bit. How about using examples of a stock 3 series BMW versus a modified M3? You’ve juiced up (see what I did there) the base model, but it’s still the same car essentially… you’ve just done some things to it to improve the driving experience. Is that better?[/quote]
Consider that you have purchased the 3 series, but are renting the M3. Perhaps you had a great time; however you are going to have to pay a perpetual lease or return the M3 after the trip is over. You will also need an explination about what happened to the M3 if you choose return it; unless of course everbody knows you don’t own the car from the start. [/quote]
Absolutely. All of those paints are legit. Especially the perpetual lease point. That’s pretty much what Walkaway indicated in his own experience. It sounds like he expects to be on a pretty long-term lease. It’s not a decision I would have wanted to make at his age, and really not something I would want to commit to now (I’m almost 30).
I just don’t see anything inherently wrong with someone else who has fully educated themselves on the subject making that sort of commitment. They have to live with the consequences, and any potential regrets in the future.
Like I said in the other thread, nobody gives a fuck if some 185lb kid used chemical assistance to reach his current level.
We care when that kid starts to open his mouth.
If it took steroids to get you to 185lbs, you don’t know training, and should never give advice, especially to the majority of us who are non-aided.
Nobody judges a silent man.
[quote]gregron wrote:
I think people trash newbs who want to use because either A. They are haters or jealous.
[/quote]
[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
personally I hope they get really bad side effects.
I am tired of working hard only to see a bunch of retards who don’t know the first thing about bb’ing cycle all year long and get the physiques they want.
Every natty hates assisted lifters especially newbie lifters, I don’t care what they say on here to maintain their forum image. [/quote]
I rest my case.
This thread is great so far
[quote]lemony2j wrote:
[quote]niksamaras wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]zraw wrote:
What if one doesnt want to put in much effort but still wants to lool good naked? Do ppl feel that you need to really “earn” your body? Is that.the prpblem?[/quote]
From the OP, just so we’re all on the same page. [/quote]
I believe that anybody needs about 2 years in order to learn the basics on nutrition,training and steroids. So, the first two years of his training he should just experiment with training methods and nutrition, while learning as much as he can on steroids. Then, whenever he feels he is ready, he can jump on the juice, just so his money does not go down the toilet.
But, if someone wants to start steroids since day one in the gym, it is none of my business, but I sure as hell won’t help him, because if anything goes wrong, he is going to blame me. Besides that, he is going to always going to ask me anything that comes to mind about this or that, since he has done no reserch on his own.[/quote]
I think this ^ sums it up nicely
Zraw, I would be interested to know your personal opinion on the point in question and if this was the case for you?
[/quote]
I think there are different factors that needs to be considered, in priority orders
I do not think training and nutritionnal knowledge is very important though… sadly.
Here’s why
a) Natty training and assisted training arent the same (recovery, volume, etc)
b) Nutrition shouldnt be the same either (think increased protein synthesis, ability to use more cals, etc)
Training natty for a while will teach you what works best for you… when natty.
It will not apply like some people seem to think to assisted users, imo
So back to my 3 points in which cases i’d say going on is ok
Long term goals : -If someone wants to hop on at some point, waiting is silly
-If someone sees this as a shortcut, wants to have a better body for a couple of months/years and then knows he might very well lose a lot of the gains he made
-If someone wants to become a competitive bodybuilder
THE ONLY PROBLEM HERE would be for someone thinking “oh man ill do a couple cycles just to fast gain 20 pounds to be where im at forever and then i’ll stop”
Basic understanding of the risk : I think this is fairly easy to understand… But young (and older) people do stuff much more idiotic without thinking… Im not so sure mdma is well understood when ppl consume that, same goes for amphetamine, same goes for massive drinking, same goes for smoking etc etc. If you are at least “aware” of the risks and its still something you are ok with well more power to you
Short term goals : As long as you are being reallistic with your goals vs your time/effort investment vs expectations
As far as the “take roids still look like crap” thing is concerned well see it this way
The guy doing : Pizza + shitty training + not much sleep + 500mg test + 300mg tren
Will also look better than the guy doing Pizza + shitty training + not much sleep
He might not look as good as the guy doing Perfect eating + recovery + perfect training …
But he also might…
So I guess my opinion is : It depends 
This wasnt the case for me no
I did use NO Xplode 6months after starting to workout though 
[quote]iVoodoo wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, nobody gives a fuck if some 185lb kid used chemical assistance to reach his current level.
We care when that kid starts to open his mouth.
If it took steroids to get you to 185lbs, you don’t know training, and should never give advice, especially to the majority of us who are non-aided.
Nobody judges a silent man.
[/quote]
This is bullshit. and pulling a random ass number with out giving details is retarded, 185lbs can LOOK DAM good.
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]optheta wrote:
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
I base my level of respect toward other lifters on their work ethic and mastery of craft. There have been few occasions during my years in the gym when a junior lifter has demonstrated both. The vast majority of the youngsters I have known that chose to go the ASS route were not training/eating properly to begin with and were looking to avoid hard work, not augment it. There could be exceptions…but they are rare. [/quote]
I’m sorry I didn’t get the memo telling me BBing was really hard to learn…[/quote]
Spoken like a youngster that still has the ‘someone else buys my shitpaper’ smile on their face. [/quote]
Srs question what is Mastery of the Craft of BBing?
[quote]zraw wrote:
[quote]lemony2j wrote:
[quote]niksamaras wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]zraw wrote:
What if one doesnt want to put in much effort but still wants to lool good naked? Do ppl feel that you need to really “earn” your body? Is that.the prpblem?[/quote]
From the OP, just so we’re all on the same page. [/quote]
I believe that anybody needs about 2 years in order to learn the basics on nutrition,training and steroids. So, the first two years of his training he should just experiment with training methods and nutrition, while learning as much as he can on steroids. Then, whenever he feels he is ready, he can jump on the juice, just so his money does not go down the toilet.
But, if someone wants to start steroids since day one in the gym, it is none of my business, but I sure as hell won’t help him, because if anything goes wrong, he is going to blame me. Besides that, he is going to always going to ask me anything that comes to mind about this or that, since he has done no reserch on his own.[/quote]
I think this ^ sums it up nicely
Zraw, I would be interested to know your personal opinion on the point in question and if this was the case for you?
[/quote]
I think there are different factors that needs to be considered, in priority orders
I do not think training and nutritionnal knowledge is very important though… sadly.
Here’s why
a) Natty training and assisted training arent the same (recovery, volume, etc)
b) Nutrition shouldnt be the same either (think increased protein synthesis, ability to use more cals, etc)
Training natty for a while will teach you what works best for you… when natty.
It will not apply like some people seem to think to assisted users, imo
So back to my 3 points in which cases i’d say going on is ok
Long term goals : -If someone wants to hop on at some point, waiting is silly
-If someone sees this as a shortcut, wants to have a better body for a couple of months/years and then knows he might very well lose a lot of the gains he made
-If someone wants to become a competitive bodybuilder
THE ONLY PROBLEM HERE would be for someone thinking “oh man ill do a couple cycles just to fast gain 20 pounds to be where im at forever and then i’ll stop”
Basic understanding of the risk : I think this is fairly easy to understand… But young (and older) people do stuff much more idiotic without thinking… Im not so sure mdma is well understood when ppl consume that, same goes for amphetamine, same goes for massive drinking, same goes for smoking etc etc. If you are at least “aware” of the risks and its still something you are ok with well more power to you
Short term goals : As long as you are being reallistic with your goals vs your time/effort investment vs expectations
As far as the “take roids still look like crap” thing is concerned well see it this way
The guy doing : Pizza + shitty training + not much sleep + 500mg test + 300mg tren
Will also look better than the guy doing Pizza + shitty training + not much sleep
He might not look as good as the guy doing Perfect eating + recovery + perfect training …
But he also might…
So I guess my opinion is : It depends
This wasnt the case for me no
I did use NO Xplode 6months after starting to workout though :D[/quote]
Ha! Good post I feel like you redeemed yourself a bit there as I wasn’t sure where the OP was going exactly.
Gotta get me some of that Canadian NO Xplode!
[quote]optheta wrote:
[quote]iVoodoo wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, nobody gives a fuck if some 185lb kid used chemical assistance to reach his current level.
We care when that kid starts to open his mouth.
If it took steroids to get you to 185lbs, you don’t know training, and should never give advice, especially to the majority of us who are non-aided.
Nobody judges a silent man.
[/quote]
This is bullshit. and pulling a random ass number with out giving details is retarded, 185lbs can LOOK DAM good.[/quote]
CT just said in another thread that in his last contest he competed at 192. That’s only 7lbs off from this hypothetical 185er. If that guy is short (5’8 or less) then 185 could look amazing.
Some people are just seen to not realize that in BBing weight doesn’t matter. It’s all about how you look.
[quote]optheta wrote:
[quote]iVoodoo wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, nobody gives a fuck if some 185lb kid used chemical assistance to reach his current level.
We care when that kid starts to open his mouth.
If it took steroids to get you to 185lbs, you don’t know training, and should never give advice, especially to the majority of us who are non-aided.
Nobody judges a silent man.
[/quote]
This is bullshit. and pulling a random ass number with out giving details is retarded, 185lbs can LOOK DAM good.[/quote]
The point is, if you haven’t done anything remarkable, regardless of how you did the unremarkable, don’t give advice.