Draco's Quest for Peace of Mind

Training Over 35 Lifter
1

Hi All,

Well, my 35th birthday was in June, so now I qualify for posting here. :wink:

Just let me start off by saying that I’m not looking for anyone to do my work for me. I’m trying to become more knowledgeable about T, estradiol, and all that, but it’s difficult for me and it’ll take time.

Like many guys who suffer from low T, I’m experiencing a myriad of problems.

I’m fatigued all of the time, despite good amounts of sleep. Training is very difficult, I can only train 2 days a week, with at least 3 days in between as my recovery is in the toilet, and even those training days aren’t that productive. Also, I have, dare I say it, very bad depression.

I’ve been to the doc several times in the past 6 months and I can say this about my current situation:

I’ve got varicoceles, bilateral, but worse on the right side, and I know that this is contributing to the low T, even though the urologist don’t seem so sure.

He suggests against getting surgery, even though there are some studies that show doing so may help reverse the low T issue.

I do have another thread about the varicoceles and I’m still considering the feedback I’ve gotten from responders. I will probably let that thread die and focus on this one.

In the last six months, I’ve gained some weight, as my T has dropped, the weight has gone up. And my training time has gone down as the fatigue and needed recovery time has increased.

Hell, even just walking on the off days is difficult because each weight-training session totally lays me out (and believe me, these sessions are not that intense).

The info that great guys like KSMan and HappyDog, and others, have been posting is greatly appreciated and I’m slowly working my way through it all but I honestly admit that it makes for hard reading sometimes.

With the way I’ve been feeling, for a long time, learning is not coming easy and I was hoping that I could get some direction.

Without further ado, the results of the tests I’ve had so far:

12/19/2007:

Around the same time I was diagnosed with varicoceles. Free T wasn’t tested.

DHEA-S: 170 ug/dL
T, Serum: 336 ng/dL
Estradiol: 21 pg/mL

06/30/2008:

After 25mg of DHEA supplemented each day for the prior 3-4 months.

DHEA-S: 211 ug/dL
T, Serum: 231 ng/dL
T, Free: 7.1 pg/mL
Estradiol: 48 pg/mL

09/05/2008, 08:20am:

Bioavailable T w/o SHBG
T, Serum: 282 ng/dL (350-1030)
Bioavailable T, Serum: 148 ng/dL (128-430)

Thyroid Panel
Thyroxine (T4): 8.7 ug/dL (4.5-12.0)
T3 Uptake: 36 (24-39)
Free T4 Index: 3.1 (1.2-4.9)

T, Free and Total
T, Serum: 233 ng/dL (241-827)
Free T, Direct: 6.3 pg/dL (8.7-25.1)

FSH and LH
LH: 3.3 mIU/mL (1.5-9.3)
FSH: 1.1 mIU/mL (1.4-18.1)

Prolactin: 11.4 ng/mL (2.1-17.7)

Dihydrotestosterone: 22 ng/dL (30-85)

DHEA-Sulfate: 179 ug/dL (120-520)

Estradiol: 40 pg/mL (0-53, <54)
Estradiol, Sensitive: 10 pg/mL (3-70)

Cortisol - AM: 23.5 ug/dL (4.3-22.4)

01/09/2009, 8am:

After about 6-8 weeks on 5mg Androgel daily. The E2 test was the same “sensitive assay” that I used for the last test, that I had to specifically ask for; LabCorp’s new sensitive assay for men.

DHT: 60ng/dL
FSH: <0.3mUI/mL
LH: <0.3 mIU/mL
T, Free (Direct): 11.7pg/mL
T, Serum: 294ng/dL
DHEA-Sulfate: 226ug/dL
Estradiol, Sensitive: 24pg/mL
SHBG: 16nmol/L

3/20/09 @ 8am:

I had gotten up at 4am to apply 10mg Androgel.

Had included 50mg DHEA daily for the week prior to the test.

T, Free (Direct): 50.5 pg/mL
T, Total: 1290 ng/dL
DHT: 117 ng/dL
DHEA-S: 435 ug/dL
E2, Sensitive: 43 pg/mL

2

Draco - You’re in a tough spot - there’s no doubt about.

The good news is that you’ve actually conquered the biggest hurdle and you’re actually DOING SOMETHING to get yourself better. So many are never able to get over that hurdle.

From my experience, I can tell you that what you’re doing is one of the most difficult things you can possibly do. You’re changing your life and your lifestyle. That is something that is quite literally impossible for most people, so be proud of yourself and feel good about your commitment to change. Bravo!

Numbers - Your T to E ratio right now is 4.8:1 and that really sucks. I didn’t start to feel human again until I got mine in the 15:1 range and once I got into the 40:1 range, I started feeling like superman. So don’t despair, you can get it all back, it just takes time and work.

The simple truth is that you feel like shit because your biochemistry is messed up and you aren’t going to feel any better until you get it sorted out. This isn’t a mental problem and don’t let anyone tell you that it is.

Here’s what you can do to help yourself along.

  1. Get your eating habits under control. Fat makes estradiol and aromatase and both are working against you. I know how difficult it is to get your eating habits under control because I’ve been there, but you simply have to make a commitment to it and stay with it no matter what.

You will have bad days. You will have failures. You will feel like shit and crave bad foods. Don’t let those things stop you.

  1. Get on an aromatase inhibitor like anastrozole. This will help stop the DHEA from converting to estradiol and will help stop your testosterone from converting as well. Start slow, one or two drops a day and do that for a couple of months and then re-evaluate.

There is no reason to discuss this with your doctor. Buy it from a research chemical house and do it on your own. It’s your life and your body and you have to take control of your health.

  1. If/when doctors try to push anti-depressants on you, tell them that you want to exhaust all other avenues first and so you want to be sure you get a full blood panel to check for thyroid and adrenal issues.

  2. Don’t give up!

Best of luck!

3

Thanks much for the input, happydog. I’m currently reading through your “Estradiol: Why You Should Care” thread. Ugh, my brain is about to explode from all the info. I think I’ll need to read it a couple of times. Other threads, too.

4

I don’t know shit about low T, high T, or any of that, but I would like to say hello and welcome to the old dudes club. Best of luck to you Draco!

6

[quote]RhunDraco wrote:
Hi All,

Well, my 35th birthday was in June, so now I qualify for posting here. :wink:

Just let me start off by saying that I’m not looking for anyone to do my work for me. I’m trying to become more knowledgeable about T, estradiol, and all that, but it’s difficult for me and it’ll take time.

Like many guys who suffer from low T, I’m experiencing a myriad of problems.

Without further adieu, the results of the tests I’ve had so far:

12/19/2007:

Around the same time I was diagnosed with varicoceles. Free T wasn’t tested.

DHEA-S: 170 ug/dL
T, Serum: 336 ng/dL
Estradiol: 21 pg/mL

06/30/2008:

After 25mg of DHEA supplemented each day for the prior 3-4 months.

DHEA-S: 211 ug/dL
T, Serum: 231 ng/dL
T, Free: 7.1 pg/mL
Estradiol: 48 pg/mL
[/quote]

  1. Varicocoeles reduce spermatogenesis. Testosterone production is not generally effected.

  2. Stop the DHEA. Your own “experiment of one” shows that DHEA lowers T and raises E in men. It has been demonstrated, many times, that the fate of DHEA in intact men is uncertain, and very often it is converted to estrogen.

For example:
[i]
Changes in serum sex hormone profiles after short-term low-dose administration of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) to young and elderly persons.

Yamada Y, Sekihara H, Omura M, Yanase T, Takayanagi R, Mune T, Yasuda K, Ishizuka T, Ueshiba H, Miyachi Y, Iwasaki T, Nakajima A, Nawata H.
Department of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Yokohama City University Graduate School of Medicine.
In man, serum concentrations of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and DHEA sulfate (DHEAS) decrease with age after the twenties. For this reason, the decline in DHEA and DHEAS concentrations may be related to the development of some chronic diseases that are prevalent in the older age population. In this study, we evaluate the benefit and safety level of DHEA administration to men as a hormone replacement therapy. Twenty-two healthy Japanese males (age 26-63; mean +/- SD, 41.0 +/- 10.0 yrs.) received 25 mg DHEA once a day orally in the morning for two weeks. Serum concentrations of steroid hormones and cytokines were measured before and after the DHEA administration. Glucose tolerance and insulin resistance were also assessed before and after the DHEA administration using a 75 g oral glucose tolerance test and homeostasis model assessment (HOMA-R), respectively. Serum DHEA and DHEAS levels were significantly elevated after the DHEA administration for all ages of test subjects. In subjects who were older than 41 yrs. (older group) serum androstenedione and estradiol levels were elevated after the DHEA administration. Significant negative correlations were observed between the serum DHEA concentration and the serum concentration of fasting insulin, HOMA-R, leptin, and high-sensitivity C-reactive protein for all subjects. Daily administration of 25 mg DHEA increased the serum DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione, and estradiol levels of the subjects of the older group to the same level as that of younger subjects.[/i]

DHEA was once “fashion.” Drop it.

7

Thanks for the input DrSkeptix. I actually found a study that showed a correlation between varicoceles and androgen deficiency. I gave the print out to my urologist and he didn’t seem too impressed (he seemed surprised at first, and then kinda dismissed it as not applying to me). If you want the PDF, PM me your email address and I’ll shoot it over to ya.

So far, it seems like the fundamental supps I absolutely should be taking are:

  1. Fish Oil + Vitamin E
  2. Zinc
  3. Multi-Vitamin

I recently ordered Flameout and I still have some ZMA left over, so I’m good there, but I’ll need to get a good vitamin again, as I ran out several months back and never got more.

More later, as it’s getting pretty late and I’m heading off to sleep.

8

[quote]RhunDraco wrote:
Thanks for the input DrSkeptix. I actually found a study that showed a correlation between varicoceles and androgen deficiency. I gave the print out to my urologist and he didn’t seem too impressed (he seemed surprised at first, and then kinda dismissed it as not applying to me). If you want the PDF, PM me your email address and I’ll shoot it over to ya.

So far, it seems like the fundamental supps I absolutely should be taking are:

  1. Fish Oil + Vitamin E
  2. Zinc
  3. Multi-Vitamin

I recently ordered Flameout and I still have some ZMA left over, so I’m good there, but I’ll need to get a good vitamin again, as I ran out several months back and never got more.

More later, as it’s getting pretty late and I’m heading off to sleep.[/quote]

Now you’re talkin’.

I wrote that varicocoeles are “not generally” a cause of low testosterone. The ideal experiment is to measure, in male humans, T before and after correction of varicolcoele. Here ya go:

[i]Pábio Firmbach Pasqualotto1, 3 , Antônio Marmo Lucon2, Plínio Moreira de Góes2, Bernardo Passos Sobreiro2, Jorge Hallak2, Eleonora Bedin Pasqualotto1 and Sami Arap2

(1) University of Caxias do Sul, Brazil
(2) University of São Paulo, Brazil
(3) Divisão de Clínica Urológica, Hospital das Clínicas da Faculdade de Medicina da Universidade de São Paulo, and Centro de Ciências Biológicas e da Saúde, Universidade de Caxias do Sul, RS, Brazil
Received: 29 March 2004 Accepted: 17 February 2005

Abstract Purpose: Correlate semen analysis, hormones, and testicular volume with the number of veins ligated.
Methods: Patients were divided into three groups: Group 1 (�?�5 veins), Group 2 (6�??10 veins), and Group 3 (> 10 veins). We evaluated testicular volume, hormonal levels, sperm concentration, and motility before and after the surgical procedure.
Results: In Group 1, even though there was an improvement in both testicular volume and sperm concentration; testosterone levels and sperm motility did not improve with surgery. In Group 2, no changes were detected in the both testicular volumes, in sperm concentration, motility, and testosterone levels. In Group 3, an improvement was seen in the right testicle volume, testosterone levels, and sperm concentration. Follicle-stimulating hormone levels decreased following the surgical procedure in all groups.
Conclusion: Patients with more than 10 ligated veins have better chances to improve sperm concentration. FSH levels decreased in all groups of patients.
[/i]

Seems that only those poor suckers with wheelbarrows and >10 veins benefitted, in terms of T improvement, from surgical correction.

Oh, and Fawkes, in your other thread, should be advised to re-study his anatomy books before taking the boards again.

9

[quote]daddyzombie wrote:
I don’t know shit about low T, high T, or any of that, but I would like to say hello and welcome to the old dudes club. Best of luck to you Draco![/quote]

Thanks, daddyzombie. I’m looking forward to improving things.

10

[quote]daddyzombie wrote:
I don’t know shit about low T, high T, or any of that, but I would like to say hello and welcome to the old dudes club. Best of luck to you Draco![/quote]

Same here.

11

[quote]Chushin wrote:
It can be a long, confusing, hard road at times, but things will gradually get better.

Hang in there, and keep doing the work you are doing.

Best of luck.[/quote]

Thanks Chushin. I’m truly going to fight the good fight here. Life has been rocky, and staying focused has never been easy for me.

12

[quote]happydog48 wrote:
2) Get on an aromatase inhibitor like anastrozole. This will help stop the DHEA from converting to estradiol and will help stop your testosterone from converting as well. Start slow, one or two drops a day and do that for a couple of months and then re-evaluate.[/quote]

So, I went digging and found a company that sells anastrozole drops (same company as mentioned in another thread, as it turns out). At such few numbers of drops as suggested, it’d only be cents per day. That could be a damn good thing, seeing as I’m getting pretty stretched on finances these days.

However, my doc has said that he’s fairly open to doing whatever it takes to help his patients. His specialty is male health and longevity, so he may actually be willing to write me a script for Adex. My next appt is in a few weeks, so I’ll find out then.

13

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

DHEA was once “fashion.” Drop it.

[/quote]

Hey Doc,

I’ve read that transdermal DHEA has a more androgenic effect than oral - raises testosterone and other androgens (E too of course.) There are quite a few studies along the lines of the following:

[quote]1: Physiol Res. 2001;50(1):9-18.Links

Effects of transdermal application of 7-oxo-DHEA on the levels of steroid hormones, gonadotropins and lipids in healthy men.

Sulcová J, Hill M, Masek Z, Ceska R, Novácek A, Hampl R, Stárka L.
Institute of Endocrinology, Prague, Czech Republic. jsulcova@endo.cz
The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of 7-oxo-DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) on the serum levels of steroid sexual hormones, gonadotropins, lipids and lipoproteins in men. 7-oxo-DHEA was applied onto the skin as a gel to 10 volunteers aged 27 to 72 years for 5 consecutive days. The single dose contained 25 mg 7-oxo-DHEA. Serum concentrations of testosterone, estradiol, cortisol, androstenedione, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), total cholesterol, HDL- and LDL-cholesterol, triglycerides, apolipoprotein A-I and B and lipoprotein(a) were measured before the beginning and shortly after the end of the steroid application. After the treatment, we noted the following significant changes: a decline of testosterone and estradiol levels, increase of LH, HDL-cholesterol and apolipoprotein A-I levels. The decrease of total cholesterol levels was of the borderline significance. A slight but significant increase was found in apolipoprotein B and lipoprotein(a). The most expressive was the fall of the atherogenic index. We suggest that the gel containing 7-oxo-DHEA might be a suitable drug for improving the composition of the steroid and lipid parameters in elderly men.[/quote]

What dost thou thinkest?

14

Well, now that I think more about it, would it be “good” to stack TRIBEX Gold with anastrozole (starting at 1-2 drops per day), along with taking ZMA, Flameout, and HOT-ROX, and not bother with anything else at the current time? I would love to be able to take REZ-V, or at least some kind of resveratrol supplement, but I can’t drop that much cash, yet.

I know that adding too many variables is not the best way to test a scientific hypothesis, but I’m a little impatient. :slight_smile:

15

One of my fellow coloradans!

16

[quote]rfish1966 wrote:
One of my fellow coloradans![/quote]

Indeed. I’m in Colorado Springs. And today we have yet more rain. Good for the lawn and my bank account. :slight_smile:

And we both do system administration? This is getting weird. :wink:

17

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:

DHEA was once “fashion.” Drop it.

Hey Doc,

I’ve read that transdermal DHEA has a more androgenic effect than oral - raises testosterone and other androgens (E too of course.) There are quite a few studies along the lines of the following:

1: Physiol Res. 2001;50(1):9-18.Links

Effects of transdermal application of 7-oxo-DHEA on the levels of steroid hormones, gonadotropins and lipids in healthy men.

Sulcová J, Hill M, Masek Z, Ceska R, Novácek A, Hampl R, Stárka L.
Institute of Endocrinology, Prague, Czech Republic. jsulcova@endo.cz
The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of 7-oxo-DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) on the serum levels of steroid sexual hormones, gonadotropins, lipids and lipoproteins in men. 7-oxo-DHEA was applied onto the skin as a gel to 10 volunteers aged 27 to 72 years for 5 consecutive days. The single dose contained 25 mg 7-oxo-DHEA. Serum concentrations of testosterone, estradiol, cortisol, androstenedione, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), total cholesterol, HDL- and LDL-cholesterol, triglycerides, apolipoprotein A-I and B and lipoprotein(a) were measured before the beginning and shortly after the end of the steroid application. After the treatment, we noted the following significant changes: a decline of testosterone and estradiol levels, increase of LH, HDL-cholesterol and apolipoprotein A-I levels. The decrease of total cholesterol levels was of the borderline significance. A slight but significant increase was found in apolipoprotein B and lipoprotein(a). The most expressive was the fall of the atherogenic index. We suggest that the gel containing 7-oxo-DHEA might be a suitable drug for improving the composition of the steroid and lipid parameters in elderly men.

What dost thou thinkest? [/quote]

Wow.
Now this is a challenge, not just because I am a Cholesterol Agnostic, but because it provokes thoughts I never had. (And none of this could be of interest to anyone…but watch for a punch line.)
I am a skeptic and I habitually look for alternative explanations than those which the authors intend.

What does this study show? It says that it is about topical DHEA and hormones, but I think otherwise. It demonstrates some changes, most of which I might construe as estrogenic effects: for example, depression of T, (measured) E, and LH. Estrogen is a powerful hormone regulating the liver production of apolipoproteins. (Please, please, do not ask me about this…it gives me a headache.) And here, the topical application of DHEA leads to a “decreased atherogenic index”…just like an estrogen.

Punch line: DHEA, by this route as well, effects the target organs (liver and pituitary or hypothalamus) like an estrogen. However one measures E, is DHEA metabolized to compounds with mild estrogenic effects? What other estrogenic effects does DHEA have in young men?

Now then:

  1. Is this what young men want or need? I have evaluated a handful of young men with low T taking DHEA, and everyone of them recovered when the DHEA was stopped.
  2. Do you see why I am also skeptical of measured hormone levels, and prefer to think of “paracrine” effects, or as in this case, end-organ effects?

Ask me sometime about the nucleus accumbens.

18

[quote]RhunDraco wrote:
rfish1966 wrote:
One of my fellow coloradans!

Indeed. I’m in Colorado Springs. And today we have yet more rain. Good for the lawn and my bank account. :slight_smile:

And we both do system administration? This is getting weird. ;)[/quote]
I have family in the springs and pueblo…also very fond of mma ; ) and fighting in general, I do prefer mma though.

19

I looked around my kitchen last night and I realized that I had everything I need to do a run of the Velocity Diet (and I don’t wanna go food shopping, anyway), so I figured, why not? I’ve got to do something important, something big, to get this process of improving myself going or I think that I’ll end up just letting it slide.

So, I’m gonna do the V-Diet, starting today to try to dump as much fat as is possible in the next 4 weeks. My goal is 25 pounds, though my long term goal is 40 lbs. I’m sitting at 222 pounds as of this morning (I was at 206 earlier this year) so I wanna get below 200 by September 16th.

I’ll be training twice a week, with the other days being the walking, as described in the V-Diet thread.

I’ll be taking TRIBEX, Flameout, a men’s multi, ZMA, and HOT-ROX. If anastrozole would be a good choice here, as well, I’ll certainly get some ordered. Anyone have an opinion on that? Hell, I may just order it anyway, instead of waiting to talk to my doc.

20

Wow. I’ve been taking 50mg DHEA daily for the last five years and 25mg daily for the ten years before that… It had always seemed to give me a bit more drive and less depression, but I wasn’t lifting during that time. I’ll stop taking it for a couple of months and see what happens.