Happy Gringo,
I’ve done a few cycles of transdermal Dhea (with Pregnenolone + some “natural” AI) and it felt freaking fantastic. Rapid lean mass gains; bodyfat stripped away; mood and cognitive function went up; energy way up. Perhaps it effects different people differently. In any case, as far as I know, it is suppressive - so keep that in mind.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Ask me sometime about the nucleus accumbens.[/quote]
Doc, there’s a great deal in your post to think about. If you don’t mind, I might put up some other studies for your reaction. I’ll start my own thread.
In the meantime, if you “prefer to think of 'paracrine” effects" - or “end-organ effects” - what, in your view, are the practical implications of this way of thinking about all this?
Cheers, ~katz
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
what, in your view, are the practical implications of this way of thinking about all this?
Cheers, ~katz
[/quote]
Great question.
My prior response was a comment on the study.
What we do is to question further and I will try not to be pedantic.
Practical application of isolated studies is just a step above anecdote.
In your case, transdermal DHEA “caused” desirable effects. Or was it something else that you were doing? I can’t know.
In the more general case, the study which you cited, contrary results were obtained. So i guess, practically speaking, I would not recommend DHEA based on your experience alone; and I might recommend against young men using it based on the cited study.
These threads are full of inconsistencies, and misapplications of physiology. But they have been adopted–wholesale–as dogma. For example:
So, practically speaking, where does that leave our neglected OP?
I guess he took DHEA unnecessarily, elevated his estrone and E2 (see your cited article, KJ), further depressing T production. (Now all sorts of blood tests will be subject to question.)
Here is my heretical dogma.
The only surrogate measurement of “total body aromatase activity” that we have is the measurement of E2 (or estrogen, or estrone). But the tissue effects of E (on and by fat, on bone, muscle, brain) may not always be reflected by high serum E2. So many posters have a obsessive respect for small changes in T or E. It really doesn’t matter whether blood or urine is measured–we all rely on the test numbers to the exclusion of the effect on the “end-organ.”
For purposes of the foregoing discussion, the “end-organ” is the pituitary.
Practical lesson:
–The Pituitary: figure out why it is unhappy, then fix it. (If the LH is low or normal, and E is “normal,” that does not exclude the utility of an AI.)
–The Balls: if the Pituitary is happy, figure out what ails the Balls. Use what makes sense, allow for errors of judgment, use supplements only very carefully.
So Doc, what is your favorite AI?
I was surfing aimlessly and I found this:
I guess it’s time to add seaweed or kelp tablets to my white button mushrooms to clean out more of the estradiol.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
So, practically speaking, where does that leave our neglected OP?
I guess he took DHEA unnecessarily, elevated his estrone and E2 (see your cited article, KJ), further depressing T production. (Now all sorts of blood tests will be subject to question.)[/quote]
Ack. Well, I was planning on asking my doc for a new baseline blood test, anyway, according to what Dr. John Crisler recommends:
My insurance company uses LabCorp, and since LC is now using the more accurate measuring methods for E2 (“ultra sensitive” from what I read in another thread within the past few days), I’m sure I can get my doc to write the request for it.
[quote]Happy Gringo wrote:
So Doc, what is your favorite AI?
I was surfing aimlessly and I found this:
I guess it’s time to add seaweed or kelp tablets to my white button mushrooms to clean out more of the estradiol.[/quote]
That’s an interesting article. Kelp, bladderwrack like in the article, is available from health food stores and is not very costly, from what I’ve seen. Anyone have any links to further studies about this? I may search later, but if anyone has any that they know of, please post them.
[quote]RhunDraco wrote:
Happy Gringo wrote:
So Doc, what is your favorite AI?
I was surfing aimlessly and I found this:
I guess it’s time to add seaweed or kelp tablets to my white button mushrooms to clean out more of the estradiol.
That’s an interesting article. Kelp, bladderwrack like in the article, is available from health food stores and is not very costly, from what I’ve seen. Anyone have any links to further studies about this? I may search later, but if anyone has any that they know of, please post them.[/quote]
Favorite AI?
In women, I choose based on side effects. Exemestane (Aromasin) has an arguably–and marginal–rap with regard to bone and lipid side effects.
In men:
No one knows. The dose and schedule is a little better developed for anastrazole (Arimidex), but…The Great Cy Willson used to think that the dose of letrozole (Femra) in men might be as little as 100 mcg (1/25th of a pill!).
I frankly think that the choice of which drug in men is not important.
In so saying, I provide another problem. No one has methodically established dose/response curves for men, as were established for women. This will not be done, since the medications are going to turn generic over the next few years, and at least one company has pulled its interest in developing their drug for use in men. (Oh, Lord, you gave them eyes and they do not see!)
Second problem: in men, what is the “therapeutic endpoint?” E2 reduction? T elevations? Fat metabolism or aromatase expression?
What about toxicity? Would a study measure Apoliprotein levels? LH suppression?
Can’t establish a “therapeutic ratio.”
While I am on the subject, here is a frightening thought.
Do any of the guys on “adex” know if they are increasing their risks of coronary artery disease, drop by drop? Dementia? Oh…you mean your sources never mentioned that possibility?
We do not yet know–even for women–what the risks of AIs are in that respect. My worry for younger men is men are at higher risk than women, and that theoretically, estrogen reduction may put them at risk for atherosclerosis and possibly dementia.
(OK…put that worry aside for a few months. I haven’t even seen animal studies that investigate this piece of pharmacoparanoia.)
Regarding kelp and mushrooms: Be skeptical. One woman had a reduction of her estrogen? What else was she doing? And if a mouse were a 100 kg man, how much kelp extract would it take?..oh.
I did share with Cy Willson a botanical: there is a south Indian legume that has natural AI activity. Otherwise…zilch on the herbals.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
While I am on the subject, here is a frightening thought.
Do any of the guys on “adex” know if they are increasing their risks of coronary artery disease, drop by drop? Dementia? Oh…you mean your sources never mentioned that possibility?
We do not yet know–even for women–what the risks of AIs are in that respect. My worry for younger men is men are at higher risk than women, and that theoretically, estrogen reduction may put them at risk for atherosclerosis and possibly dementia.
(OK…put that worry aside for a few months. I haven’t even seen animal studies that investigate this piece of pharmacoparanoia.)
[/quote]
But the key is achieving balance, not to drive E2 into the ground - right? After all, high E2 is also strongly associated with health risks.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
While I am on the subject, here is a frightening thought.
Do any of the guys on “adex” know if they are increasing their risks of coronary artery disease, drop by drop? Dementia? Oh…you mean your sources never mentioned that possibility?
We do not yet know–even for women–what the risks of AIs are in that respect. My worry for younger men is men are at higher risk than women, and that theoretically, estrogen reduction may put them at risk for atherosclerosis and possibly dementia.
(OK…put that worry aside for a few months. I haven’t even seen animal studies that investigate this piece of pharmacoparanoia.)
But the key is achieving balance, not to drive E2 into the ground - right? After all, high E2 is also strongly associated with health risks. [/quote]
Oh? For men, can you name them? Not how someone feels, but how the “health risks” are effected.
(Leave out the ridiculously high levels that can only be achieved through the self-administration of testosterone or estrogen in transsexuals.)
(My concerns about coronary artery disease have nothing to do with low measured levels of E2. What if local estrogen synthesis is important to maintaining the health of the heart’s arteries?)
But you make a valid point, one that TC has impressed on me. A flaw in my thinking is that I consider the pathological–what is normal or abnormal. What men on this website seek is the optimal.
You seek to achieve balance–the optimal–I agree and I think it can be defined better by studies and by knowing the balance between benefits and risks.
Doing the V-Diet is killer, and I’m almost done with week 1, so I’m definitely gonna stick with it.
As an experiment, I stopped the DHEA and so far have not noticed any changes to mood, etc, though it may be too soon to tell. Next Thursday is my next appt with my doc, so I’ll talk to him about some of the thoughts I have and I’ll ask what he thinks about prescribing an AI. If he isn’t keen on the idea, then I’ll probably go ahead and order some liquid anastrozole myself.
And just in case others haven’t seen this, here’s a good page that contains links to more info:
Thanks happydog! 
Ok, so I’m just ending week 2 on the Velocity Diet. I’ve lost about 7 lbs total in the last two weeks, and I’ll be doing the skinfold measurements tomorrow morning, so hopefully there will be some fat loss. Been 100% compliant with the V-Diet, so far.
No big news to report on the subjective measurements front, after stopping the DHEA. Nothing blatantly obvious.
Now, time for sleep.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Oh? For men, can you name them? Not how someone feels, but how the “health risks” are effected.
[/quote]
I think so. If memory serves, I can cut and paste a quote from you yourself listing how excess estrogen is associated with a whole host of risks for men.
But yeah, again, it’s balance that’s important - the importance of getting the right levels for you.
[quote]RhunDraco wrote:
Ok, so I’m just ending week 2 on the Velocity Diet. I’ve lost about 7 lbs total in the last two weeks, and I’ll be doing the skinfold measurements tomorrow morning, so hopefully there will be some fat loss. Been 100% compliant with the V-Diet, so far.
No big news to report on the subjective measurements front, after stopping the DHEA. Nothing blatantly obvious.
Now, time for sleep. [/quote]
Good job dude!
On the DHEA: on the primordial forum (re: transdermal DHEA), it seems some guys experience suppression and some don’t. Mostly subjective stuff though. So it’s hard to say. I’ve heard some argue that theoretically it should - and others that it shouldn’t - be suppressive. Both have sounded convincing. So, who knows??
Cheers to all, ~katz
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
RhunDraco wrote:
Ok, so I’m just ending week 2 on the Velocity Diet. I’ve lost about 7 lbs total in the last two weeks, and I’ll be doing the skinfold measurements tomorrow morning, so hopefully there will be some fat loss. Been 100% compliant with the V-Diet, so far.
No big news to report on the subjective measurements front, after stopping the DHEA. Nothing blatantly obvious.
Now, time for sleep.
Good job dude!
On the DHEA: on the primordial forum (re: transdermal DHEA), it seems some guys experience suppression and some don’t. Mostly subjective stuff though. So it’s hard to say. I’ve heard some argue that theoretically it should - and others that it shouldn’t - be suppressive. Both have sounded convincing. So, who knows??
Cheers to all, ~katz [/quote]
Thanks katz! The results I’ve gotten so far make me feel more determined to finish the V-Diet strong.
About my DHEA experience: it is so hard to determine how I really feel. I still have mood swings, but it’s hard to tell if they are better or worse then before. As I’m writing this, I feel pretty normal. However, not much has happened today to really make me irritated, so hopefully nothing will. I get quite a bit of stress from my home life.
Ok, just got back from my Doc. He wrote the blood work request for just about damn near everything thinkable, plus he threw some stuff in that he wanted to see. He almost had to use the back of the paper to fit it all in. 
I’ll hit Labcorp tomorrow morning at 8, when they open, so I can get all this blood drawn.
I’ll post the results when I get em.
Ok, have the results of the latest blood work. Taken on 9/5/2008 at 08:20.
Bioavailable T w/o SHBG
T, Serum: 282 ng/dL (350-1030)
Bioavailable T, Serum: 148 ng/dL (128-430)
Thyroid Panel
Thyroxine (T4): 8.7 ug/dL (4.5-12.0)
T3 Uptake: 36 (24-39)
Free T4 Index: 3.1 (1.2-4.9)
T, Free and Total
T, Serum: 233 ng/dL (241-827)
Free T, Direct: 6.3 pg/dL (8.7-25.1)
FSH and LH
LH: 3.3 mIU/mL (1.5-9.3)
FSH: 1.1 mIU/mL (1.4-18.1)
With the FSH so low, my doc suggested we do an MRI on my brain, just to rule out a pituitary and/or hypothalamic tumor.
Prolactin: 11.4 ng/mL (2.1-17.7)
Dihydrotestosterone: 22 ng/dL (30-85)
DHEA-Sulfate: 179 ug/dL (120-520)
Estradiol: 40 pg/mL (0-53, <54)
Estradiol, Sensitive: 10 pg/mL (3-70)
Cortisol - AM: 23.5 ug/dL (4.3-22.4)
We also tested a bunch of other stuff. My kidney #'s were a little elevated, but that could be due to having just started the V-Diet? If any other numbers are useful, I may have it, there was just 5 pages of results, and I didn’t feel like typing everything in.
I had stopped taking a 25mg daily dose of DHEA about two weeks prior to this bloodwork.
I am copying these results into my original post, as well.
I suspected that my cortisol would be high, but I didn’t expect to see the low LH and FSH. It could be that the varicoceles and low T are just occurring at the same time, but not related.
My home life is pretty stressful and I probably don’t get as much sleep as I should. I’ll try to start working on reducing the stress.
We also did a full series of STD tests, and I can at least say that I’m clean.