Double Tap Marine!

[blacksheep]

Grimnuruk made the statement,
“…the guy who has to make the split second decision that can mean life or death for him, his fellow Marines, or an unknown/insurgent/civilian/foreign fighter, etc. No one here can say what they would have done in his place unless they have been through almost exactly the same…situation,…”
The key words are “…split second decision…”

I am a Vietnam Veteran, 1969, 11th ACR and an OIF Veteran, 2004, 124th Cav, 36th ID, TXANG, and am presently retired.

During all of my training and in training others in fighting the enemy, the key word was to make sure that it was a “Catastrophic” kill. That the enemy could not rise and kill you.

While the Double Tap was a scenario many had to deal with, may I give another scenario that was dealt with on many occasions with the “…split second decision…” in mind.

While on QRF (Quick Reaction Force), we were called out to secure an area where a civilian convoy had been ambushed. We were to set up a hasty road block and wait for the Area Security Teams to come out and investigate the ambush. My team had set up south of the area and had about eight to nine vehicles in line when all of a sudden the rear vehicle about 100 meters away pulls out of line and at a high rate of speed moves towards our location. Thoughts come to mind:
VBIED (VECHICLE BORNE IED).
It’s getting closer.
Insurgent forcing civilians to drive.
It’s getting closer.
Civilians doing stupid.
It’s getting closer.
Fellow troopers on ground.
It’s getting closer.
Do we take them out.
It’s getting closer.
Do we take car’s engine out only.
It’s getting closer.
I jump behind the open door of our vehicle and fire at the engine block and direct my gunner to do the same with his Cal. 50. The vehicle is stopped, the two civilians are shook up, and after checking we find that they were not a threat, just doing stupid. Go figure. Was this the right action to take? In this instance it was but what about the next time.

As to Double Tap or Catastrophic Kill, in that split second you do what it takes to protect your fellow troopers and yourself.

[Grimnuruk]

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
…
Libertarians know that war is the largest government program of all and it has been used throughout history to scare populations into compliance and empower tyrants.

----Do you think this may be in part be a response to the fragmenting of American culture? We don’t really have a solid cultural identity as Americans in the way that many smaller countries do? Certainly the concept of US vs THEM has been around since long before we became sentient.

The war industry in America was set in motion by WWII and was largely sustained by inertia until September the 11th, 2001, which gave it another hefty push

----Agreed

Neo-Conservatives and Libertarians also take different interpretations of past military conflicts, particularly the two world wars. Libertarian doctrine holds that the U.S. involvement in each of them was unnecessary and ultimately detrimental to the U.S. Libertarians readily accept the idea, as do neocons, that we are where we are today largely as a result of WWII. And that’s where they part company, since the latter group sees U.S. involvement in that conflict to be justified and the former does not.

I don’t think that anyone can build a case to refute the claim that what this country has been doing since the Spanish-American war amounts to imperialism. The only things left to discuss, then, are whether or not imperialism is justified, for whom, and on what grounds.

Absolutely. However, I must admit that I’d rather be discussing our own imperialism, its justification, etc., rather than Iran’s or China’s…
Criticizing our own government and its past and present policies are all well and good but we are in a global community now with many neighbors who have no qualms whatsoever about seeking power for powers sake. Some quite willing to put to the sword all who oppose their worldview/religious beliefs.

I don’t think that neocons do a good enough job of explaining their strategy to their opponents. They could, perhaps, win some converts by improving in this area. What they ought to realize is that nobody (save for a tiny and neglible minority) genuinely “hates” America and wants to see it defeated. People, quite understandably, simply don’t see how invading places like Grenada and Kuwait is “making the world [or America] safe for democracy”. Neocons ought realize that every new invasion is NOT Operation D-Day – there has been and continues to be a boatload of corruption and profiteering associated with America’s global conflicts.[/quote]

An excellent post. Very informative and I’m going to read through it again.
I would like to comment on the last sentence though. I believe that smartest of them (those in power) realize this just fine and are just playing along with the script for the general apathetic public…It sure worked great after 9-11.
I’d be interested to hear you expound on the expected outcome of such isolationism as you mention, both during the World Wars and in the current global situation. Frankly, I’ve never been able to keep a firm mental grasp on this both because it always seems to me that we were “right” to “interfere” as it were in Euro/world politics during the early half of the 20th century, as well as the what seems to me anyways, often armed and dangerous rest of the world to include: China, North Korea, Iran, the various nuclear armed former members of the Soviet Union, and the exporters of terrorists and criminals worldwide.

[Grimnuruk]

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Grimnuruk made the statement,
“…the guy who has to make the split second decision that can mean life or death for him, his fellow Marines, or an unknown/insurgent/civilian/foreign fighter, etc. No one here can say what they would have done in his place unless they have been through almost exactly the same…situation,…”
The key words are “…split second decision…”

I am a Vietnam Veteran, 1969, 11th ACR and an OIF Veteran, 2004, 124th Cav, 36th ID, TXANG, and am presently retired.

During all of my training and in training others in fighting the enemy, the key word was to make sure that it was a “Catastrophic” kill. That the enemy could not rise and kill you.

While the Double Tap was a scenario many had to deal with, may I give another scenario that was dealt with on many occasions with the “…split second decision…” in mind.

While on QRF (Quick Reaction Force), we were called out to secure an area where a civilian convoy had been ambushed. We were to set up a hasty road block and wait for the Area Security Teams to come out and investigate the ambush. My team had set up south of the area and had about eight to nine vehicles in line when all of a sudden the rear vehicle about 100 meters away pulls out of line and at a high rate of speed moves towards our location. Thoughts come to mind:
VBIED (VECHICLE BORNE IED).
It’s getting closer.
Insurgent forcing civilians to drive.
It’s getting closer.
Civilians doing stupid.
It’s getting closer.
Fellow troopers on ground.
It’s getting closer.
Do we take them out.
It’s getting closer.
Do we take car’s engine out only.
It’s getting closer.
I jump behind the open door of our vehicle and fire at the engine block and direct my gunner to do the same with his Cal. 50. The vehicle is stopped, the two civilians are shook up, and after checking we find that they were not a threat, just doing stupid. Go figure. Was this the right action to take? In this instance it was but what about the next time.

As to Double Tap or Catastrophic Kill, in that split second you do what it takes to protect your fellow troopers and yourself.
[/quote]

An excellent post. Thank you for sharing your experience.

[Grimnuruk]

[quote]blacksheep wrote:

As to Double Tap or Catastrophic Kill, in that split second you do what it takes to protect your fellow troopers and yourself.
[/quote]

Thank you for getting us back on track for this thread. While we all may have tremendously different opinions on the nature, origins, legality/legitimacy of our current state of affairs we should probably try to keep this thread on the subject of the double tap to a perceived threat vs “war crime” or whatever the other take on it is being called.
My opinion, as I have stated, is that whatever your political opinions, religious beliefs, world views personal likes/dislikes, etc., if you are a trained U.S. combatant engaging the enemy, you damned well better do what you have to do to achieve the objective with minimal lose to your side, while still obeying the laws of war as you understand them.

[Wreckless]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Aren’t you one of the guys that promised this marine a “cake walk” and that he would be welcomed and showered with flowers?

They were welcomed, until scumbag libs like you started ranting about an ‘occupying force’ and ‘Bush lied’ and other such stupidities. Guys like you embolden the enemy, then rip on the Marines when they fight back.
[/quote]

Oh, you give me way to much credit.

Anyway, let’s not forgot who started attacking whom here. And also, let’s not forget who warned you about what would happen. So don’t blame the libs when it really happens. Blame your own stupid ignorant self.

You’re a stupid mofo and a coward hiding behind marines HH. You shouldn’t be thanking them. You should simply shut up. You’re partly responsible for every single person that got killed in that conflict.
Don’t try to shift the blame on the libs.

[Wreckless]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
MisterAmazing wrote:
Anybody who bitches about our soldiers using a double tap should be double tapped themselves, shut the fuck up and let them do their job so you still have yours.

Abso-fucking-lutely!!

[/quote]

Are those brave marines dying so you can have a job HH?

Is that why you lied to them and promised them a cake walk? And they would we welcomed as liberators and showered with flowers?

Did you lie to them so you can keep your job?

And that makes you a patriot?

[Headhunter]

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
MisterAmazing wrote:
Anybody who bitches about our soldiers using a double tap should be double tapped themselves, shut the fuck up and let them do their job so you still have yours.

Abso-fucking-lutely!!

Are those brave marines dying so you can have a job HH?

Is that why you lied to them and promised them a cake walk? And they would we welcomed as liberators and showered with flowers?

Did you lie to them so you can keep your job?

And that makes you a patriot?[/quote]

Yeah, I send 19 year olds to their deaths so I can teach and so you can continue to be an engineer.

Tell me, do you consider ANYTHING worth fighting for? Would you favor removing a dictator who you thought was about to unleash WMDs on Belgium? Should you wait until you see little children dying from bio-agents before you, in your infinite wisdom, decide to take action?

You, sir, are a coward, hiding behind an umbrella provided by the United States of America. You spit on your protectors. Perhaps your self-loathing is so manifest that you simply want everyone to die. Well, tell you what: if that’s your motive, then you start.

[orion]

[quote]derek wrote:
I just realized I’ve been breaking two of my cardinal rules of debate;

1. Never debate American patriotism with non-Americans… they’ll never get it.

2. Never discuss politics with whiny, ungrateful brats.

My bad.[/quote]

1. They do get it. They just do not enjoy being the “them” in “us vs them”.

When did patriotism shift from being the home of the brave and the land of the free to blindly following goverment, whorshipping your military and masturbating over a flag?

Wait a second, as an Austrian I actually do get THAT kind of “patriotism” very well.

Americans are special aren`t they.

God`s own country.

The chosen people.

Destined for greatness.

You?re not all blond and blue eyed but neither were we.

2. Your definition of everyone who does not agree that the moral purity of US foreign policy is up there with the Virgin Mary?s.

[pat]

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Oh, you give me way to much credit.

Anyway, let’s not forgot who started attacking whom here. And also, let’s not forget who warned you about what would happen. So don’t blame the libs when it really happens. Blame your own stupid ignorant self.

You’re a stupid mofo and a coward hiding behind marines HH. You shouldn’t be thanking them. You should simply shut up. You’re partly responsible for every single person that got killed in that conflict.
Don’t try to shift the blame on the libs.[/quote]

I don’t. You are a typical Euroweenine who displays his stupidity by tremendous arrogance. I have shit more enlightened things then yourself.

[pat]

[quote]orion wrote:
derek wrote:
I just realized I’ve been breaking two of my cardinal rules of debate;

1. Never debate American patriotism with non-Americans… they’ll never get it.

2. Never discuss politics with whiny, ungrateful brats.

My bad.

1. They do get it. They just do not enjoy being the “them” in “us vs them”.

[/quote]

No they don’t anymore than we get the notion of Austrian Patriotism.
BTW, I did enjoy Klestil’s attempt to get rid of all the gypsies in Austria around 2000. Did it succeed? I know a lot of them ended up in Canada, but I believe EU pressure won in the end, even though the vast majority of them were illegal aliens.

[JeffR]

Pat, HH, Hedo,

I wanted to point out that in between the usual “we hate America” crap, there are some pretty solid posts.

Yes, it’s painful to read nominal prospect, reckless, and orion. However, I wanted to welcome Griminurik and Blacksheep.

By the way, Griminurik, I’ve having a hard time believing that you are a liberal on the order of nominal prospect. You sound more like a seasoned thinker.

To my friends, Derek/Pat, please do not get so worked up about the Anti-Americans. They love making you upset. Just think of them as the ultimate expression of free speech. If there weren’t people protecting them, they could never spout such nonsense. In a way, they are a miracle of the U.S.’ system. They are like extra fat that couldn’t exist if there wasn’t protection.

Remember they cannot wrap their minds around the concept that without voluntary laws and people upholding those laws, the strong would erase them and take all their things.

JeffR

[derek]

[quote]JeffR wrote:

To my friends, Derek/Pat, please do not get so worked up about the Anti-Americans. They love making you upset. [/quote]

You are absolutely right. On the last page, I had commented “Whew! You just became much less important to me”.

That’s when I realized my errors. National patriotism will never be understood by a weak mind.

Niether will sacrifice.

Niether will fighting for a belief.

Oh, well you cannot win them all.

[Grimnuruk]

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Pat, HH, Hedo,

I wanted to point out that in between the usual “we hate America” crap, there are some pretty solid posts.

Yes, it’s painful to read nominal prospect, reckless, and orion. However, I wanted to welcome Griminurik and Blacksheep.

By the way, Griminurik, I’ve having a hard time believing that you are a liberal on the order of nominal prospect. You sound more like a seasoned thinker.

To my friends, Derek/Pat, please do not get so worked up about the Anti-Americans. They love making you upset. Just think of them as the ultimate expression of free speech. If there weren’t people protecting them, they could never spout such nonsense. In a way, they are a miracle of the U.S.’ system. They are like extra fat that couldn’t exist if there wasn’t protection.

Remember they cannot wrap their minds around the concept that without voluntary laws and people upholding those laws, the strong would erase them and take all their things.

JeffR[/quote]

What a great post! I love the analogy!
I am trying to become seasoned thinker at any rate. I recognize my own biases and do my best to think around or through them to see what is “really” there anyways.

[Wreckless]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
MisterAmazing wrote:
Anybody who bitches about our soldiers using a double tap should be double tapped themselves, shut the fuck up and let them do their job so you still have yours.

Abso-fucking-lutely!!

Are those brave marines dying so you can have a job HH?

Is that why you lied to them and promised them a cake walk? And they would we welcomed as liberators and showered with flowers?

Did you lie to them so you can keep your job?

And that makes you a patriot?

Yeah, I send 19 year olds to their deaths so I can teach and so you can continue to be an engineer.

Tell me, do you consider ANYTHING worth fighting for? Would you favor removing a dictator who you thought was about to unleash WMDs on Belgium? Should you wait until you see little children dying from bio-agents before you, in your infinite wisdom, decide to take action?

You, sir, are a coward, hiding behind an umbrella provided by the United States of America. You spit on your protectors. Perhaps your self-loathing is so manifest that you simply want everyone to die. Well, tell you what: if that’s your motive, then you start.

[/quote]

Perhaps you can explain to us why you send 19 year olds to their death then?

And please, don’t give me that crap about WMD. We knew then that there weren’t any. We ALL know now that there weren’t any.

Is it your defence that you’re a stupid and arrogant mofo that believed the evidence Rummy fabricated? Is that what you’re saying.

And I really don’t see how you’re umbrella is protecting anybody. Are you still convinced that attacking Iraq was justified? Are you still convinced that it is helping in the war on terror? Because if you are, than you’re clearly in a state of denial.
Not stupid enough to enlist though.

How’s that cough going?

[Wreckless]

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Oh, you give me way to much credit.

Anyway, let’s not forgot who started attacking whom here. And also, let’s not forget who warned you about what would happen. So don’t blame the libs when it really happens. Blame your own stupid ignorant self.

You’re a stupid mofo and a coward hiding behind marines HH. You shouldn’t be thanking them. You should simply shut up. You’re partly responsible for every single person that got killed in that conflict.
Don’t try to shift the blame on the libs.

I don’t. You are a typical Euroweenine who displays his stupidity by tremendous arrogance. I have shit more enlightened things then yourself.[/quote]

I’m convinced your shit is more enlightened than yourself.

[Wreckless]

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Pat, HH, Hedo,

I wanted to point out that in between the usual “we hate America” crap, there are some pretty solid posts.

Yes, it’s painful to read nominal prospect, reckless, and orion. However, I wanted to welcome Griminurik and Blacksheep.

By the way, Griminurik, I’ve having a hard time believing that you are a liberal on the order of nominal prospect. You sound more like a seasoned thinker.

To my friends, Derek/Pat, please do not get so worked up about the Anti-Americans. They love making you upset. Just think of them as the ultimate expression of free speech. If there weren’t people protecting them, they could never spout such nonsense. In a way, they are a miracle of the U.S.’ system. They are like extra fat that couldn’t exist if there wasn’t protection.

Remember they cannot wrap their minds around the concept that without voluntary laws and people upholding those laws, the strong would erase them and take all their things.

JeffR[/quote]

Hey Eff0, what do you know about thinking? You haven’t had a thought in decades.

[orion]

[quote]pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
derek wrote:
I just realized I’ve been breaking two of my cardinal rules of debate;

1. Never debate American patriotism with non-Americans… they’ll never get it.

2. Never discuss politics with whiny, ungrateful brats.

My bad.

1. They do get it. They just do not enjoy being the “them” in “us vs them”.

No they don’t anymore than we get the notion of Austrian Patriotism.
BTW, I did enjoy Klestil’s attempt to get rid of all the gypsies in Austria around 2000. Did it succeed? I know a lot of them ended up in Canada, but I believe EU pressure won in the end, even though the vast majority of them were illegal aliens.[/quote]

Klestil was our president and that means that he had little to no power in day-to-day politics.

So, even if I knew what you are referring to, our president could not do it without triggering a constitutional crisis.

Plus, calling Klestil a nazi is wrong, you would not have to search hard to find them in Austrian politics but Klestil was never one of them.

[JeffR]

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Pat, HH, Hedo,

I wanted to point out that in between the usual “we hate America” crap, there are some pretty solid posts.

Yes, it’s painful to read nominal prospect, reckless, and orion. However, I wanted to welcome Griminurik and Blacksheep.

By the way, Griminurik, I’ve having a hard time believing that you are a liberal on the order of nominal prospect. You sound more like a seasoned thinker.

To my friends, Derek/Pat, please do not get so worked up about the Anti-Americans. They love making you upset. Just think of them as the ultimate expression of free speech. If there weren’t people protecting them, they could never spout such nonsense. In a way, they are a miracle of the U.S.’ system. They are like extra fat that couldn’t exist if there wasn’t protection.

Remember they cannot wrap their minds around the concept that without voluntary laws and people upholding those laws, the strong would erase them and take all their things.

JeffR

What a great post! I love the analogy!
I am trying to become seasoned thinker at any rate. I recognize my own biases and do my best to think around or through them to see what is “really” there anyways.
[/quote]

Grim,

Thanks. I wanted to let you know that most of us guys on the Right share your concerns. Each of us have done soul searching about Iraq in particular. In my case, I stated when the war started that this was a tremendous gamble.

However, I believe and still feel it was and is the right thing to do.

What you see from many of these posters is a fundamental lack of understanding regarding human nature. While civilization has made great strides since King Albert, unfortunately, the basest portions of our character remains unchanged. It just takes the right atmosphere for vicious dictators to thrive and subjugate. These dictators provide the spark that turns these combustible situations into full blown conflagrations.

Guys like nominal and jtf do not read neville chamberlins quotes. They don’t understand that in some cases they are repeating verbatim many of his principles. They cannot understand that sometimes it’s better to cut the cancer out early before it metastasizes.

I think it all started when they weren’t picked for dodge-ball. Ever since then, they’ve had trouble with the alpha males.

Seriously, the worst offenders are guys like reckless and orion whose countries were either overrun or were complicit in the horror of the prototype dictator. These posters have no excuse for their lack of understanding. They can go and see the ovens and battle scars in their own countries.

There are no valid excuses for these people. They should encourage staring down every tyrant or petty despot. It should be something that has been hammered into their subconsciouness.

Instead, you hear them dodging and trying to change the subject. They’ll deflect blame onto others.

It is just sickening and is the reason that the worst dictators survive.

Again, welcome to the forum. I think you’ll find that those of us on the Right respond much more favorably to your approach.

JeffR

[orion]

[quote]JeffR wrote:

Remember they cannot wrap their minds around the concept that without voluntary laws and people upholding those laws, the strong would erase them and take all their things.

JeffR[/quote]

Yes, that`s what really worries me.

That someone “strong” will take away all my belongings from poor, weak, pacifist me…

Someday you will explain to us why you are fighting for the rule of law abroad, while your constitution is pissed upon by judges and politicians in Washington, but I am sure in your mind it all works somehow.

[hedo]

[quote]orion wrote:
JeffR wrote:

Remember they cannot wrap their minds around the concept that without voluntary laws and people upholding those laws, the strong would erase them and take all their things.

JeffR

Yes, that`s what really worries me.

That someone “strong” will take away all my belongings from poor, weak, pacifist me…

Someday you will explain to us why you are fighting for the rule of law abroad, while your constitution is pissed upon by judges and politicians in Washington, but I am sure in your mind it all works somehow.[/quote]

You’ll love sharia law. Your guest workers will insist on it.

In your mind, it will all work somehow.