Double Tap Marine!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
derek wrote:
Regarding the news blurb about the Marine who put two rounds (“doubletap”) in a wounded insurgent’s head in Fallujah, here’s a response from a Marine:

"It’s a safety issue, pure and simple. After assaulting through a target, we put a security round in everybody’s head. Sorry al-Reuters, there’s no paddy wagon rolling around Fallujah picking up “prisoners” and offering them a hot cup a joe, falafel, and a blanket. There’s no time to dick around on the target. You clear the space, dump the chumps, and move on.

Are Corpsmen expected to treat wounded terrorists? Negative. Hey Libs, worried about the defense budget? Well, it would be waste, fraud, and abuse for a Corpsman to expend one man-minute or a battle dressing on a terrorist. Its much cheaper to just spend the $.02 on a 5.56mm FMJ.

By the way, in our view, terrorists who chop off civilian’s heads are not prisoners, they are carcasses. Chopping off a civilian’s head is another reason why these idiots are known as “unlawful combatants.” It seems that most of the world’s journalists have forgotten that fact.

Let me be very clear about this issue. I have looked around the web, and many people get this concept, but there are some stragglers.

Here is your typical Marine sitrep (situation report): You just took fire from unlawful combatants (no uniform – breaking every Geneva Convention rule there is) shooting from a religious building, attempting to use the sanctuary status of their position as protection. But you’re in Fallujah now, and the Marine Corps has decided that they’re not playing that game this time. That was Najaf. So you set the mosque on fire and you hose down the terrorists with small arms, launch some AT-4s (Rockets), some 40MM grenades into the building and things quiet down. So you run over there, and find some tangos (bad guys) wounded and pretending to be dead. You are aware that suicide martyrdom is like really popular with these idiots, and they think taking some Marines with them would be really cool. So you can either risk your life and your fire team’s lives by having them cover you while you bend down and search a guy that you think is pretending to be dead for some reason. Most of the time these are the guys with the grenade or a vest made of explosives. Also, you don’t know who or what is in the next room. You’re already speaking English to the rest of your fire team or squad, which lets the terrorist know you are there and you are his enemy. You are speaking loud because your hearing is poor from shooting people for several days. So you know that there are many other rooms to enter, and that if anyone is still alive in those rooms, they know that Americans are in the mosque. Meanwhile (3 seconds later), you still have this terrorist (who was just shooting at you from a mosque) playing possum. What do you
do? You double tap his head, and you go to the next room, that’s what!

What about the Geneva Convention and all that Law of Land Warfare stuff? What about it? Without even addressing the issues at hand, your first thought should be, “I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.”

Bear in mind that this tactic of double tapping a fallen terrorist is a perpetual mindset that is reinforced by experience on a minute-by-minute basis. Secondly, you are fighting an unlawful combatant in a Sanctuary, which is a double No-No on his part. Third, tactically you are in no position to take “prisoners” because there are more rooms to search and clear, and the behavior of said terrorist indicates that he is up to no good. “No good” in Fallujah is a very large place, and the low end of no good and the high end of no good are fundamentally the same … Marines end up getting hurt or killed. So there is no compelling reason for you to do anything but double tap this idiot and get on with the mission.

If you are a veteran, then everything I have just written is self evident. If you are not a veteran, then at least try to put yourself in the situation. Remember, in Fallujah there is no yesterday, there is no tomorrow, there is only now. Right NOW. Have you ever lived in NOW for a week? It is really, really not easy. If you have never lived in NOW for longer than it takes to finish the big roller coaster at Six Flags, then shut your hole about putting Marines in jail for “War Crimes.”

First, THANK YOU for defending me and my family. We WILL NOT forget you and all the wonderful guys there.

Secondly, you are an excellent writer; I could almost see it happening as I read. Wow!

Third, please put as many bullets as possible into each one of these sons-of-bitches.

God Bless You, and our country.

[/quote]

Aren’t you one of the guys that promised this marine a “cake walk” and that he would be welcomed and showered with flowers?

62

[quote]tme wrote:
And trust me, if I did what needed to be done and turned around and saw your dumb ass holding a camera phone, I’d very gladly double-tab you too.
[/quote]

You talk like you speak from experience. Are you a Marine or have you otherwise served in comat yourself?

I can’t tell because your profile is private (which speaks for itself). Nice to see you have no reservations to murdering a fellow Marine.

You go girlfriend!

63

[quote]Wreckless wrote:

Aren’t you one of the guys that promised this marine a “cake walk” and that he would be welcomed and showered with flowers?[/quote]

They were welcomed, until scumbag libs like you started ranting about an ‘occupying force’ and ‘Bush lied’ and other such stupidities. Guys like you embolden the enemy, then rip on the Marines when they fight back.

64

[quote]Wreckless wrote:

Aren’t you one of the guys that promised this marine a “cake walk” and that he would be welcomed and showered with flowers?[/quote]

By Nick Wadhams
ASSOCIATED PRESS

12:05 p.m. January 10, 2006

MOSUL, Iraq ? When Capt. Pat Flynn and his squad knock on doors in Mosul in search of intelligence tips, Iraqis often welcome them inside with chocolate candy and tea in tiny glasses.

(tme, this is ME typing now ok?)

Why is it that of all the literally thousands of good, heartwarming, positive stories that I read and hear about in e-mails from active members of the Armed Services in Iraq and thier families NEVER get told on the networks?

Oh. Never mind.

65

[quote]hedo wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I dare you to spout this crock of shit near anyone you just grossly insulted…

Right, so that I can be viciously assaulted.

And this will surely refute my claim that the military is a bunch of fascist goons.

You say your a scientist…consider it field testing. Plus getting some common sense beat into you would be a big plus.

You don’t have any trigger time but you lecture those that do. Mix it up with a couple of Soldiers or Marines then you can report back on how charitable you were to your opponents.

[/quote]
Why is it military personnel feel they speak for all the military? You do not. You do make the military look exactly like a bunch of hired goons.

BTW, the military is not strictly voluntary. It’s voluntary like all paid jobs are voluntary except you can be thrown in prison if you try to quit. That makes you prisoner mercenaries–robotic prisoner mercenaries. Obey your orders robots!

66

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:

My sources have told me that your claim about “not fighting Iraqi citizens” is a neocon myth, created in order to bolster the “fighting over there so that we don’t have to fight here” mythology. There are foreign fighters in Iraqi, yes, but they don’t outnumber the native insurgents. So it’s been reported. Another example of neocon type A neurosis - I thought that America, as the greatest country on earth, shouldn’t have to abide by any international laws. So why use this “lawful vs. unlawful” combatant paradigm to justify your actions?

Your sources?
[/quote]

The DoD says:

Terrorists and Foreign Fighters
“Although a combination of Iraqi Sunni and
Shi’a groups are responsible for the majority
of violence against the Iraqi people and
Coalition forces, a few foreign operatives are
responsible for the majority of high-profile
attacks. Sunni terrorist organizations, such as
al-Qaeda in Iraq and Ansar al-Sunnah, are
engaged in a religiously motivated conflict to
end ‘foreign occupation’ and to marginalize
the Shi’a”

Makkun

67

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
BTW, the military is not strictly voluntary. It’s voluntary like all paid jobs are voluntary except you can be thrown in prison if you try to quit. That makes you prisoner mercenaries–robotic prisoner mercenaries. Obey your orders robots![/quote]

OK, let’s stipulate to your drivel. I’d like to see you have the guts to admit that these prisoner-robot-mercenaries have paid the price in blood for your ability to live in peace and luxury.

You may hate the military and it’s individual soldiers but man up and pay tribute to those men and women who put thier lives on the line, been wounded and killed for your freedom (to be an asshole).

I personally thank God that they exist and have existed since the Revolutionary War and beyond.

I also thank God that there are very few of you ungrateful losers around. You can take pride in the fact that you are a minority. If that were not the case, we’d all be fleeing to Cuba.

68

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

BTW, the military is not strictly voluntary. It’s voluntary like all paid jobs are voluntary except you can be thrown in prison if you try to quit. That makes you prisoner mercenaries–robotic prisoner mercenaries. Obey your orders robots![/quote]

Yeah, they also know that going in and they also realize that they may die in combat yet join up anyway. You are such a pansy.

Let me guess, you’re a lover, not a fighter?

One volutneer soldier has more balls than you and I put together (the females included).

69

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
hedo wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I dare you to spout this crock of shit near anyone you just grossly insulted…

Right, so that I can be viciously assaulted.

And this will surely refute my claim that the military is a bunch of fascist goons.

You say your a scientist…consider it field testing. Plus getting some common sense beat into you would be a big plus.

You don’t have any trigger time but you lecture those that do. Mix it up with a couple of Soldiers or Marines then you can report back on how charitable you were to your opponents.

Why is it military personnel feel they speak for all the military? You do not. You do make the military look exactly like a bunch of hired goons.

BTW, the military is not strictly voluntary. It’s voluntary like all paid jobs are voluntary except you can be thrown in prison if you try to quit. That makes you prisoner mercenaries–robotic prisoner mercenaries. Obey your orders robots![/quote]

Actually, numbnuts, I haven’t been in the military for 12 years.

Sarcasm is actually a lower form of wit that is lost on you. Your buttbuddy made a stupid comment and I mocked it…get it now.

Your sweeping statement was way out in left field as I am sure you now realize.

As to being robotic I have a graduate degree and a successful business. Lot’s of guys I know in business were in the service. You shouldn’t feel proud for being a washout son.

Maybe T Nation isn’t a good fit for you?

70

[quote]hedo wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
hedo wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I dare you to spout this crock of shit near anyone you just grossly insulted…

Right, so that I can be viciously assaulted.

And this will surely refute my claim that the military is a bunch of fascist goons.

You say your a scientist…consider it field testing. Plus getting some common sense beat into you would be a big plus.

You don’t have any trigger time but you lecture those that do. Mix it up with a couple of Soldiers or Marines then you can report back on how charitable you were to your opponents.

Why is it military personnel feel they speak for all the military? You do not. You do make the military look exactly like a bunch of hired goons.

BTW, the military is not strictly voluntary. It’s voluntary like all paid jobs are voluntary except you can be thrown in prison if you try to quit. That makes you prisoner mercenaries–robotic prisoner mercenaries. Obey your orders robots!

Actually, numbnuts, I haven’t been in the military for 12 years.

Sarcasm is actually a lower form of wit that is lost on you. Your buttbuddy made a stupid comment and I mocked it…get it now.

Your sweeping statement was way out in left field as I am sure you now realize.

As to being robotic I have a graduate degree and a successful business. Lot’s of guys I know in business were in the service. You shouldn’t feel proud for being a washout son.

Maybe T-Nation isn’t a good fit for you?
[/quote]

I thought I remember LIFTICVSMAXIMVS saying he was a marine who fought in Vietnam…or maybe that was someone else…

71

[quote]40yarddash wrote:
hedo wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
hedo wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I dare you to spout this crock of shit near anyone you just grossly insulted…

Right, so that I can be viciously assaulted.

And this will surely refute my claim that the military is a bunch of fascist goons.

You say your a scientist…consider it field testing. Plus getting some common sense beat into you would be a big plus.

You don’t have any trigger time but you lecture those that do. Mix it up with a couple of Soldiers or Marines then you can report back on how charitable you were to your opponents.

Why is it military personnel feel they speak for all the military? You do not. You do make the military look exactly like a bunch of hired goons.

BTW, the military is not strictly voluntary. It’s voluntary like all paid jobs are voluntary except you can be thrown in prison if you try to quit. That makes you prisoner mercenaries–robotic prisoner mercenaries. Obey your orders robots!

Actually, numbnuts, I haven’t been in the military for 12 years.

Sarcasm is actually a lower form of wit that is lost on you. Your buttbuddy made a stupid comment and I mocked it…get it now.

Your sweeping statement was way out in left field as I am sure you now realize.

As to being robotic I have a graduate degree and a successful business. Lot’s of guys I know in business were in the service. You shouldn’t feel proud for being a washout son.

Maybe T-Nation isn’t a good fit for you?

Does anyone really think this clown was a Marine, let alone a Viet-Nam vet?
I get the impression he is Euro, anti-American.

72

Wow, what a great argument! I don’t know where to begin. First, I served in the Corps back in the day so I know that perspective.

Second, I am an “intellectual” or scholar of sorts, having been forced to stop my graduate education (anthropology/archaeology) by severe health problems. I have seen things from both sides and of course am quite opinionated myself.

It can be very difficult to argue on the internet because you are relying on a very narrow medium and have a sort of “one shot, one kill” mentality with each post instead of an ongoing flow as with a face to face conversation.
So, I have mentally lubricated myself with a few pints of cider and will try to weigh in in such a way as to contribute something positive to this conversation.

First, my own biases on this subject are: 1) the guy on the ground is in a very different position than the rest of us. He is (was in this case)in the here and now, which for the Marines clearing Fallujah was some of the dirtiest, horrifying and mind numbingly “wrong” MOUT since Stalingrad.

This CANNOT be overemphasized. Each and every one of us on this forum have the luxury of being in a totally different EXISTENCE at this point than the guy who has to make the split second decision that can mean life or death for him, his fellow Marines or an unknown/insurgent/civilian/foreign fighter, etc. NO ONE here can say what they would have done is his place unless they have been through almost exactly the same fucked up situation, and then MAYBE.

A guy could be a stand up liberal who wanted to serve his country,speaks Iraqi, loves their culture, Hates Bush, wants to really help the Iraqi people, etc, etc, but after what these guys went through in
Fallujah, in the span of a second in a high adrenaline environment he had to make the decision and did so. I strongly recommend everyone interested in this to read up on the actual situation in Fallujah at the time. NO TRUE GLORY by Bing West is a good place to start.

73

Ok, second: I am viewed by my Neocon and Republican coworkers, family, associates, etc, as a pussy liberal for my views and at the same time as some kind of right wing nut job by my associates in the social sciences (the vast majority of whom tend to liberal, Marxist, touchy feely types).

A huge problem that I see in these arguments is the use of STRAWMEN (Straw man - Wikipedia) to divert and channel arguments for each side. It has been my experience that even the “high and mighty” types in the “Ivory Tower” of academia are not above using this technique regularly in their arguments with each other.

( which are just as dirty, hateful, hurtful and wrong as a drunken knife fight in a black alley). I must say that there are several layers to this discussion that each must be view BOTH separately and together. What “we”/our government/the power holders in the government are doing/are trying to do/thought they were doing in Iraq is in some ways irrelevant to what the foot soldier has to do to survive this conflict and that is what is at the core of this argument.

I don’t agree with the full scale invasion of Iraq for the reasons given, the time chosen and the methods used BUT…OUR guys are there and must do what they can to make it out alive, succeed in the immediate objectives (tactical day to day or minute to minute stuff) and try to succeed in the ultimate objectives ( strategic, whether or not this is actually possible given the geo-political-social situation)

74

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
I would like to say, while the thought is in my head, that I am grateful to the mods of this forum for letting such discussions as this one go on unfettered.

Ideological censorship is very common in today’s world. Regrettably, I see it all the time.

The internet is littered with discussion forums where post deletions and bannings occur on a daily basis. I find such practices to be distasteful and harmful to the quality of debate found therein.

I frequent many forums, but invariably return here due to the laissez-faire atmosphere enjoyed by T-Nation members.

Thankfully, this forum has not yet turned into a huge circle-jerking session, like so many others I’ve seen. We’re still at each others’ throats, and more fervently than ever. Praise be for that, and may the current state of affairs never change. (aha - stagnation!)

It’s easy to forget how great of a luxury freedom is until one is deprived of it.

I thank the other members of this forum for expressing their views without reservation and the mods for letting us to do it![/quote]

I second this. Thanks for the great discussion opportunities.

75

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
I’ve already addressed this in the other thread. What am I supposed to be thanking them for? Let’s get real specific here, as “defending freedom” won’t cut it.

I want to know exactly who I’m being protected from by the U.S. military. Let’s look at some of it’s recent conquests:

Panama
Grenada
Serbia
Afghanistan
Somalia
Philippines

What kind of crack are you smoking if you genuinely believe that any of these nations posed even a remote threat to our own?

There have been hundreds of U.S. military conflicts since 1950 (to say nothing of those that came before).

How can you neocons possibly reconcile the fact that 99% of the countries we attack couldn’t touch us if they wanted to with your ever-popular “defending freedom” line?

Give me a real, tangible, non-bullshit pie-in-the-sky reason to thank the military and I’ll do it.[/quote]

Ok, Here I gotta say that we are very lucky in that most of the people we need to be thanking are DEAD. Very few of my Grandfather’s generation are left who fought in WWII, a real honest war of aggression and conquest. History shows us that these kinds of conquest attempts are now much rarer than smaller, asymmetrical maneuvers designed to gain without much loss or be noticed by the rest of the world. The conflicts you list tend be those of deterrence, where we/the U.S. as a superpower, must flex our muscle as it were, to the rest of the primates to ensure that we remain in our high socio-economic-military status. It is essential to note that these “lesser” conflicts serve the same purpose as the Ragnorak like convulsions of a the World Wars, just in a more limited (time, space, gains, losses) fashion.
In this connected “flat world” that we find ourselves in, no one can afford to deny that all the different status factors of a nation are intertwined. Our western standard of living cannot be removed from our Alpha Male status as a military superpower anymore than our demand for equal rights among races and sexes can.

There has to be certain amount of affluence, security and maturity for these to occur and that can require the painful acceptance of past violence on our behalf to achieve it.

76

Have you guys read any of the articles on Pat Tillman and his views on the war on terror vs/the invasion in Iraq? I’m thinking of the long one in S.I. (the only reason I bought it) Here was a guy that was both SERVING his country and an individual and a thinker at the same time. What a lose.

77

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:

A huge problem that I see in these arguments is the use of STRAWMEN (Straw man - Wikipedia) to divert and channel arguments for each side. It has been my experience that even the “high and mighty” types in the “Ivory Tower” of academia are not above using this technique regularly in their arguments with each other.
[/quote]

I’m always thoughtful and careful in my replies but all these damn dirty [insert “libs” or “fascists”] are capable of is gross characterizations and distortion to suit their crazy evil viewpoints. They would [insert “bow down before a triumvirate of Osama, Hitler, and Hillary” or “turn America into a fascists dictatorship and nuke the world”] if it weren’t for us courageous and right thinking heroes.

Welcome to the T-Nation politics forum. Why argue against a real person when it’s so much easier to argue against a bizarre and wholly imaginary caricature?

78

[quote]derek wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

BTW, the military is not strictly voluntary. It’s voluntary like all paid jobs are voluntary except you can be thrown in prison if you try to quit. That makes you prisoner mercenaries–robotic prisoner mercenaries. Obey your orders robots!

Yeah, they also know that going in and they also realize that they may die in combat yet join up anyway. You are such a pansy.

Let me guess, you’re a lover, not a fighter?

One volutneer soldier has more balls than you and I put together (the females included).
[/quote]

You shouldn’t make assumptions about people by what they write. Like me making the assumption that you are a teenager who believes everything he/she is told. That being said, your sentimental rhetoric doesn’t mean anything.

There has not been one war fought since the civil war that has been strictly about the safety of US soil, citizens, or interests. Am I sad that Americans lost there lives? I am but not because I think it was necessary for them to die in war.

How many 17 - 20 year old kids actually consider this when joining the military? I certainly didn’t. You probably don’t. Kids these days only get the glory of war spoon fed to them. It’s always about honor and core values. None of these vales can be criticized by their dissenters, by the way.

They are absolute, according to tradition; and this makes them dangerous for the average person. This is no different than the dogma of religious tradition.

If you want to have an opinion about the military and its traditions it is best to join and decide for yourself. Don’t let me or anyone (parents and relatives included) try to convince you of what it is–though I would consider an opinion from first hand knowledge more relevant than one that is not. Still, be skeptical and decide for yourself.

79

[quote]hedo wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
hedo wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I dare you to spout this crock of shit near anyone you just grossly insulted…

Right, so that I can be viciously assaulted.

And this will surely refute my claim that the military is a bunch of fascist goons.

You say your a scientist…consider it field testing. Plus getting some common sense beat into you would be a big plus.

You don’t have any trigger time but you lecture those that do. Mix it up with a couple of Soldiers or Marines then you can report back on how charitable you were to your opponents.

Why is it military personnel feel they speak for all the military? You do not. You do make the military look exactly like a bunch of hired goons.

BTW, the military is not strictly voluntary. It’s voluntary like all paid jobs are voluntary except you can be thrown in prison if you try to quit. That makes you prisoner mercenaries–robotic prisoner mercenaries. Obey your orders robots!

Actually, numbnuts, I haven’t been in the military for 12 years.

Sarcasm is actually a lower form of wit that is lost on you. Your buttbuddy made a stupid comment and I mocked it…get it now.

Your sweeping statement was way out in left field as I am sure you now realize.

As to being robotic I have a graduate degree and a successful business. Lot’s of guys I know in business were in the service. You shouldn’t feel proud for being a washout son.

Maybe T Nation isn’t a good fit for you?
[/quote]

Sarcasm doesn’t translate very well in written form. So if it is a case of misunderstanding, sorry. I still don’t see the sarcasm.

Having a graduate degree doesn’t make one less of a robot. I too have an advance degree that took years of dedication and discipline to achieve–discipline which I learned from the military. Don’t assume I am a “washout” because I don’t agree with the current status quo.

I believe I answered the OP with complete honesty and truthfulness. It is not my fault that my perspective of truth sometimes is unpleasant and or uncomfortable.

Buttbuddy? Grow up. Your military service has just been confirmed by that comment. Oh yeah, that was sarcasm!

80

I don’t mind being called a robot, a facist, a mercenary, a dumb 18 year old who doesn’t know better, a murderer, and a nazi, but being called a war criminal really hurts.