[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
[quote]stokes1989 wrote:
[quote]spk wrote:
^^^^^
great job…
and i agree…
pussys… an ego thing i guess. cant do pullups so they put a ton of weight on the bar and do the lat pulldown with horrible form… practice pullups AND THE CORRECT WAY TO DO LAT PULLDOWNS…
real men do pullups!!![/quote]
Thats an undisputible fact! I freaking LOVE pull-ups, they are by far my favorite exercise. I prefer to do them with legs elevated to parallel to incorperate some core into them (plus try doing 15 pull ups with feet elevated and a 20lb weight vest on, absolute murder!)
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The thing alot of people don’t realize is that most people dont do pullups because they cant. Most people dont deadlift or back squat either. They can’t do them. People do things they are good at as a general rule. The same reason they don’t do pullups is the same reason they can’t do lat pulldowns correctly.
Form is so often discussed in the forums. Working on form when doing exercises is secondary for most people, most people are not at the “form” level. If you are at the “form” level that means you CAN do the exercise your attempting, you are just working on doing it properly.
Make sure you pull through your elbows, hollow body, blah, blah, blah… It’s all DESCRIBING functions that are working, you can play with these WHEN your body is working properly.
People read Ben Bruno’s new article with all the exotic pullup variations or some sexy new programming scheme. Dumb motherfuckers skipped like 50 steps. Like running for president after you graduate middle school.
The VAST majority of people are at the corrective exercise level and they are worried about special exercises and programming. Makes me laugh sometimes they will never get anywhere.
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While what you say about most people being unable to do proper pull-ups is true, the reasoning is not generally because they need “corrective” exercises in order to be able to do so. In most cases people can’t do them due to a lack of strength in the correct muscles. So what most people need are proper regressions of pull-ups are an understanding of how to correctly “scale up” the exercises towards pull-ups. If that was what you meant by “corrective”, though, then yeah I agree.[/quote]
Many people struggle with pullups because of bad proprioception. They have a very rounded back and shoulders and try to pull with their arms.
While weakness in the key muscles groups is an issue, doing arm dominant pullups and pulldowns will not strengthen the key back muscles. Many of these people need to do corrective exercises for learning to activate the lats, lower/mid traps, and rhomboids[/quote]
Totally agree with your first comment.
Also agree that doing more arm dominant pull-ups and pull-downs won’t fix the problem. I was never arguing otherwise.
But, properly regressed pull-ups are among the best back exercises; you don’t need to do fancy corrective exercises if you know how to cue correctly.[/quote]
Have an average person who isn’t overweight try to do a pullup. Let’s say for the sake of argument this particular person cannot do one.
The first mistake is to assume they are not strong enough in the primary pulling muscles.
And that this pullup failure was a demonstration of weakness in the pulling muscles. That is not the case 99 times out of 100.
Now there is a sliding scale, some of what you saw is weakness in the primary pulling muscles. But that is the main problem in VERY few people.
The main issue is that the patterns that have the capacity to generate the most force are not being used by the body period.
Cues are descriptions of things the body can do. For instance. Using the lats on deadlifts. That is worthless. Completely and utterly worthless. UNLESS. You have the ability to do this.
If you can take cues and effectively use them to get stronger on exercises, you don’t have any issues. Which is rare. The main problem usually, is that people have issues and cannot make use of these cues.
You’ve said in other posts you agree the hips are important. Have you ever seen what happens if you try to progress pullups without addressing the hips? Nothing really. No good progress can be made.
I’ve spent plenty of time training and the approach you mention is what I used to think when I first started training 9 years ago.
If it worked the way you make it sound everyone would be doing pullups.
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Gotta say that I totally disagree with most of what you said above.
The primary reason that most overweight (especially untrained people) cannot do pull-ups is not because they are using the wrong muscles, it’s because they lack the requisite strength in the right muscles. Yes, often times they need cuing (sometimes visual, sometimes, tactile, sometimes kinesthetic)/are utilizing incorrect movement patterns, but generally, even with correct cuing they cannot complete even a single rep of a good form pull-up due to their lack of strength.
And I have never said anything about the hips in regards to pull-ups; you seem to be a little too hung up on that topic to be honest. Case in point, most para amputees or even paraplegics can bang out tons of pull-ups and in the case of the paraplegics, their nerve impulses to their hips is nonexistent. Hips are not and never have been a limiting factor in pull-up performance.
And the type of pull-up progression that I am talking about produces perfect pull-ups and beyond pretty much every time for those actually willing to stick with it. In fact, it also produces world class gymnasts (obviously they go further along than the average person who starts in their 40’s will get in their lifetime). The reason most people fail in achieving the goal of being able to perform perfect pull-ups (and harder variations) is a combination of a lack of knowledge about how to properly build up to that point, and a lack of discipline to be able to stick to the program for long enough to actually reach their goals. Instead everybody wants results NOW, and the thought of putting in the required time is less “sexy” than looking for shortcuts/get rich quick schemes or just picking easier goals.[/quote]
It’s ok that you disagree, I’m just arguing my point is all. I know I’m right. Your seeing what you want to see because you don’t understand it fully.
There are people that are not overweight that cannot do 1 pullup. This is not a weakness in the primary pulling muscles it’s the body not using the correct pattern that primarily involves the primary pulling muscles.
Not being able to do pullups is an issue that ties in to whole body dysfunction.
Parapalegic is a different issue, I haven’t worked with any so I don’t know. But the issue with normal people is improper hip tension, so if you have no hip tension maybe that nets the same difference.