Doing Pullups

Training
101

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]238 wrote:
Not able to watch the video at the moment, but…

[quote]spk wrote:
making you work harder, making the number of reps go higher. [/quote]

So the harder something is, the more reps of it you can do? If I’m reading this right then why is it that in every other movement the harder it is, the less reps I can do? E.g. if I squat 120 kg I get less reps than if I squat 100 kg.[/quote]

Yeah, I had the same reaction to that point.

Along the same lines, why is it that there are lots of videos of women doing their “1st pull-up” who perform a kipping pull-up, but very few of women doing a dead hang pull-up if kipping pull-ups are harder? Wouldn’t it make sense that if kipping pull-ups were indeed harder than dead hangs, that a whole lot of women would get a dead hang before getting a kipping pull-up? Just as you don’t see any videos of people getting their first pull-up performing a strict muscle-up or butterfly pull-up on rings. Why? Because those are harder variations of pull-ups, so people are going to have to achieve the easier variations first.

Another good counter example would be the fact that when you watch people do max sets of pull-ups, they all kip more the further into the set they go (as they start to fatigue and they therefore look for ways to make the exercise easier to allow them to continue going). If kipping were indeed harder, then you’d expect them to kip less the further into the set they went.[/quote]

Not advocating for kipping or Xfit particularly, however, in terms of WORK (as opposed to exertion): mathematically WORK = FORCE X DISTANCE. So if you must generate x amount of force to get your chin over the bar and you travel y distance in the process you will have done more total WORK if you do 30 kipping as opposed to 10 dead hang pullups as you will have travelled 3x the distance. In fact, you will have done significantly more work, as you will have generated much more force in accelerating yourself to the bar while kipping as opposed to from a dead hang.

Again, it’s the math. FORCE = MASS x ACCELERATION. So if your mass stays constant but you accelerate much faster you have generated more force. Of course, this doesn’t really tell the whole story because you have drastically changed how you are generating that force, thus making it much easier in terms of exertion. However exertion =/= work.

I still prefer dead hangs.

Edited[/quote]

Technically this is true, but that would be like someone doing “cheat curls” that more closely resemble underhand grip power cleans and claiming that since they were able to do three times as many with the same weight that this method was a superior way of curling. And, if by that they simply mean getting the bar from point A to point B as many times as possible with no concern for which muscles got the bar there, then they would technically be correct. But this method of curling still pales in comparison (and is much less impressive from a strength/performance perspective) to strict curling using only the arm flexors to move the weight in terms of strength development for those muscles; which is generally the reason people perform curls in the first place.
[/quote]

Yep, pretty much agree. As I said in my earlier response to Silyak, I was essentially playing Devil’s advocate here as I think dead hangs are generally more valuable for most people. I’ve noticed that xfitters like to toss physics around when explaining their methods/reasoning so I thought I’d give it a go. I agree that the primary point of resistance training is generally not to move weight from A to B any more than the primary purpose of running is transportation.

If your goal was simply to get up to the bar, jumping/kipping is obviously the way to go, but that’s not usually why we do pullups. Like I said, just messing around a little. Dead hangs FTW.

102

I can hit a dozen pull-ups from dead hang (military style) after a five mile run, but my back is super tight, meaning I’m rolling it with tennis balls twice a day.

However, the folks that I know that do solid pull-ups are the ones at the rock gym. I’m about a 5.9 climber at best.

Check out those grip boards for some seriously different approaches such as using only two fingers in each hand or pulling up from a weird angle. Really, hit the rock gym.

103

Nice that the pullups transfer to rock climbing. Finger boards and such are probably great for guys that want to increase their grip capacity, big grip usually means more transfer to the bar and better lifts.

I remember reading about the hollow pullup on these boards a while ago, has to do with keeping the back neutral, apparently engaging the abs and pointing the head, knees, toes slightly forward, arguably it puts the latissimus in a better position to take on the primary load.

Also, a lot of us are talking about stretch responses and where the bottom of the pullup is. I was always taught to keep tension in my shoulders in order to prevent grinding, wear and odd stresses on the sits muscles. There’s a second stretch response in your lats, when you say you are at the bottom, your lats should be stretching and your sits muscles should already be tight, keeping your shoulders broad, tight and high. Kroc isn’t doing a dead hang pullup, he’s keeping tightness in his shoulders and letting his lats stretch at the bottom, and utilizing the stretch response to get more pulls. You can see him flex his shoulders when he first hangs on the bar, and you can see him relax his shoulders towards the end of his set, you see his body drop a good couple of inches when he relaxes. That’s what I’m seeing, don’t know what ya’ll are looking at.

Also, the path is different for Kroc. He seems to come straight up with an arched back, elbows completely flared. The guy doing hollows has more of a 3/4 arm position and he doesn’t seem to keep his sits muscles tight at the bottom and he seems to come around the bar rather than straight up to it. I don’t know which path is better.

Seems like there is a medium between the hollow pull and what Croc is doing. I think ideally you can keep your sits muscles engaged while still going hollow. I imagine changing up elbow position from flared to 3/4 is a matter of preference and shoulder comfort.

104

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]238 wrote:
Not able to watch the video at the moment, but…

[quote]spk wrote:
making you work harder, making the number of reps go higher. [/quote]

So the harder something is, the more reps of it you can do? If I’m reading this right then why is it that in every other movement the harder it is, the less reps I can do? E.g. if I squat 120 kg I get less reps than if I squat 100 kg.[/quote]

Yeah, I had the same reaction to that point.

Along the same lines, why is it that there are lots of videos of women doing their “1st pull-up” who perform a kipping pull-up, but very few of women doing a dead hang pull-up if kipping pull-ups are harder? Wouldn’t it make sense that if kipping pull-ups were indeed harder than dead hangs, that a whole lot of women would get a dead hang before getting a kipping pull-up? Just as you don’t see any videos of people getting their first pull-up performing a strict muscle-up or butterfly pull-up on rings. Why? Because those are harder variations of pull-ups, so people are going to have to achieve the easier variations first.

Another good counter example would be the fact that when you watch people do max sets of pull-ups, they all kip more the further into the set they go (as they start to fatigue and they therefore look for ways to make the exercise easier to allow them to continue going). If kipping were indeed harder, then you’d expect them to kip less the further into the set they went.[/quote]

Not advocating for kipping or Xfit particularly, however, in terms of WORK (as opposed to exertion): mathematically WORK = FORCE X DISTANCE. So if you must generate x amount of force to get your chin over the bar and you travel y distance in the process you will have done more total WORK if you do 30 kipping as opposed to 10 dead hang pullups as you will have travelled 3x the distance. In fact, you will have done significantly more work, as you will have generated much more force in accelerating yourself to the bar while kipping as opposed to from a dead hang.

Again, it’s the math. FORCE = MASS x ACCELERATION. So if your mass stays constant but you accelerate much faster you have generated more force. Of course, this doesn’t really tell the whole story because you have drastically changed how you are generating that force, thus making it much easier in terms of exertion. However exertion =/= work.

I still prefer dead hangs.

Edited[/quote]

Technically this is true, but that would be like someone doing “cheat curls” that more closely resemble underhand grip power cleans and claiming that since they were able to do three times as many with the same weight that this method was a superior way of curling. And, if by that they simply mean getting the bar from point A to point B as many times as possible with no concern for which muscles got the bar there, then they would technically be correct. But this method of curling still pales in comparison (and is much less impressive from a strength/performance perspective) to strict curling using only the arm flexors to move the weight in terms of strength development for those muscles; which is generally the reason people perform curls in the first place.
[/quote]

Yep, pretty much agree. As I said in my earlier response to Silyak, I was essentially playing Devil’s advocate here as I think dead hangs are generally more valuable for most people. I’ve noticed that xfitters like to toss physics around when explaining their methods/reasoning so I thought I’d give it a go. I agree that the primary point of resistance training is generally not to move weight from A to B any more than the primary purpose of running is transportation.

If your goal was simply to get up to the bar, jumping/kipping is obviously the way to go, but that’s not usually why we do pullups. Like I said, just messing around a little. Dead hangs FTW.[/quote]

Yeah, I knew what you were doing. :slight_smile:

Good addition to the discussion.

105

[quote]tweaker wrote:
I can hit a dozen pull-ups from dead hang (military style) after a five mile run, but my back is super tight, meaning I’m rolling it with tennis balls twice a day.

However, the folks that I know that do solid pull-ups are the ones at the rock gym. I’m about a 5.9 climber at best.

Check out those grip boards for some seriously different approaches such as using only two fingers in each hand or pulling up from a weird angle. Really, hit the rock gym. [/quote]

Absolutely. Rock climbers tend to have insane pull-up strength.

There was a former professional rock climber at the old gym I worked at who could do several reps of 1 arm chins with either arm (real 1 arm chins, from a dead hang) with an additional 45 lbs of weight (he would sometimes use a weight belt and sometimes hold the plate in the non working hand). And this was several years after he had retired from professional climbing. He told me that when he was climbing seriously he could bang out close to 10 reps with that weight or do a single with 70 lbs of added weight on his good arm. He also used to have fun betting people at bars that he could do a pull-up and drink a beer at the same time.

For any of you who have read “The Monky Maker: Developing Absurd Pull-up Power” article by John Allstadt, this individual could also do the final progression in that article (that the author only talks about) which is jumping several bars using only 1 arm. When I told him about the exercise he was like “oh, that? Yeah, there is a rock climbing system of training that is based around that. I used to do those all the time when I was climbing seriously.” Like it was old hat to him.

106

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Absolutely. Rock climbers tend to have insane pull-up strength.

There was a former professional rock climber at the old gym I worked at who could do several reps of 1 arm chins with either arm (real 1 arm chins, from a dead hang) with an additional 45 lbs of weight (he would sometimes use a weight belt and sometimes hold the plate in the non working hand). And this was several years after he had retired from professional climbing. He told me that when he was climbing seriously he could bang out close to 10 reps with that weight or do a single with 70 lbs of added weight on his good arm. He also used to have fun betting people at bars that he could do a pull-up and drink a beer at the same time.

For any of you who have read “The Monky Maker: Developing Absurd Pull-up Power” article by John Allstadt, this individual could also do the final progression in that article (that the author only talks about) which is jumping several bars using only 1 arm. When I told him about the exercise he was like “oh, that? Yeah, there is a rock climbing system of training that is based around that. I used to do those all the time when I was climbing seriously.” Like it was old hat to him.[/quote]

Definitely. I just need to breathe some life into this thread beyond crossfit and military style deadhang pull-ups. It’s really all about what you’re trying to achieve.

107

as we all can see, there are different styles of pullups. deadhangs, and the kind kroc did in his videos, and the kipping kind the xfit guys do, and i imagine other styles where the is more movement than the dead hang.i wish i could find it , but i seen one video on an old russian guy doing 70 dead hangs, but he paused a few seconds at the bottom, fully extended… that was amazing…his grip strength was just amazing, taking that long for each rep…everybody does them their way for their own training. i do dead hangs my way and want to try and get a pr this fall doing dead hangs…i will incorporate a bit of swinging, cause i cant swing a lot because of the kind of pullup bar i have, i will do weighted pullups, and long pause pullups… maybe all that will help me reach 35, my goal…

108

Does anyone know what the heaviest weighted pullup ever is? I’ve heard of extremistpullup’s 400 lbs. total, but considering the amount of weight some elite rock climbers can one arm chin themselves with, I suspect that it would be surpassed by multiple climbers if it was something they cared to challenge. Has a 3X bodyweight pullup ever been performed to any of y’all’s knowledge?

109

Does anyone know what the heaviest weighted pullup ever is? I’ve heard of extremistpullup’s 400 lbs. total, but considering the amount of weight some elite rock climbers can one arm chin themselves with, I suspect that it would be surpassed by multiple climbers if it was something they cared to challenge. Has a 3X bodyweight pullup ever been performed to any of y’all’s knowledge?

110

FUUUUUUCK this thread. I guess I can do somewhere between like 8 and 18 pullups then… depending on who’s judging.

111

[quote]Andrewdwatters1 wrote:
FUUUUUUCK this thread. I guess I can do somewhere between like 8 and 18 pullups then… depending on who’s judging. [/quote]

Depending on what you’re trying to accomplish.

Are you trying to increase your back strength and the overall amount of pullups you can do?

Are you into Xfit and want to, “train your body” or, “mimic the bar path” then I don’t get it.

If you want to finish off your back workout with a kipping pullup, which works both lats and trap (Vertical and Horizontal pulling back muscles) then I’m cool with this.

What I’m complaining about, and the reason I call the kipping pullup an abomination is because people are forgoing regular pullups, or using regular pullups as a warmup for kipping pullups, which to me is like doing heavy deadlifts in order to work your rack pull. I guess it makes sense if you want a great rack pull, but isn’t the point of a rack pull to supplement your deadlift? I’m saying the philosophy behind xfit pullup translates as backwards reasoning to me since I see no real carry over to oly lifts or “clients getting used to their own bodies” whatever that means. I think a lot of people, if they are very honest with themselves will say the same. I’m just coming out and being honest.

What are you trying to accomplish? There are many ways to get many pullups, from olympic style and training that push the hollow pullup, there are mountain/ rock climbers who probably have the best, strongest upper backs on the planet as well. You see what the powerlifters are doing and the reasoning behind what they do.

I’ll back off what I said about the kipping pullup, it’s not an abomination. I just don’t agree at all with the way Xfit utilizes it, and I probably have a strong opinion because kipping pullups are frowned upon, and don’t count back where I come from.

112

The thing is if one has never done pull ups and are overweight. If said person has a weight issue that doesn’t seem to rectify itself without a death camp diet. Kipping pull ups are the way to go. Before I listened to you drones and hurt my shoulder trying to do full rom pull ups, I was up to 6 kipping pull ups which translated to 4 good ones with no kipping.

I’ve lost untold months of progress by having to take two weeks off so far. At my age, 49, two weeks off is like it never happened.

Full rom is the thing of fools who other than to enrich his Orthopedic Surgeon has no other good reason to go all the way down and tranfer the weight from the arms and back to the shoulder capsule.

113

what i have noticed, or really what i have heard,and seen, is MOST pure bodybuilders look down on the xfit guys…kipping pullups have been around a hunderd years, but the marketing xfit has done these last dozen years really brought xfit mainstream… i think the pure bodybuilders look down at kipping pullups, and xfit in general, is cause they cant do them…

most of the bigger pure bodybuilders i have seen these past 40+ years in gyms, the more elite guys walk around like statues, and are not agile at all… MOST OF THEM. so an agile xfit guy that does this movement is look down upon from the bodybuilders, from wht i seen. and they also comment on how they are not that good for you… lol!!! they need to research the value of this movement…

114

I can’t say that the kipping pullup has no value. But the crossfit party line on them is dishonest. The reason crossfit focuses on kipping pullups is that probably less than 10% of adult males can do more than 10 strict pull-ups and probably less that 10% of adult females can even do 1. When the whole idea of your system focuses around doing lots of reps quickly, you can’t well prioritize an exercise that finishes most people in 3 reps or less. Obviously I’m not talking about top crossfitters here, who can certainly do a good number of strict pull-ups as well. But when your program is for the masses you have to make it accessible.

As I said before, the whole idea of total work done being the critical quantity is completely ridiculous and even crossfitters know it. If it was true, the snatch would have no value. There would be no reason to try and push for a new PR. You could just get in extra reps at a low weight and have the same effect.

115

[quote]Silyak wrote:
I can’t say that the kipping pullup has no value. But the crossfit party line on them is dishonest. The reason crossfit focuses on kipping pullups is that probably less than 10% of adult males can do more than 10 strict pull-ups and probably less that 10% of adult females can even do 1. When the whole idea of your system focuses around doing lots of reps quickly, you can’t well use an exercise that finishes most people in 3 reps or less. Obviously I’m not talking about top crossfitters here, who can certainly do a good number of strict pull-ups as well. But when your program is for the masses you have to make it accessible.

As I said before, the whole idea of total work done being the critical quantity is completely ridiculous and even crossfitters know it. If it was true, the snatch would have no value. There would be no reason to try and push for a new PR. You could just get in extra reps at a low weight and have the same effect. [/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head, the kipping pullup is part of the program because it’s for the masses, and there are people out there that can’t do a single regular pullup… So maybe the kipping pullup is good for building confidence in new clients, as well as building people to their first real pullup. I can TOTALLY dig that, and I’m a fan of people gaining the body strength to really be able to manipulate their own bodyweight. That’s real progress, but that’s not what Crossfit says they are doing with the kipping pullup. Worse, they keep it as a cornerstone in their workouts, like the deadlift in powerlifting.

It would allow for a transition from the kipping pullup to regular pullups, to maybe weighted pullups which is an outstanding direction to go if trying to build the upper back. But as is, the Kipping pullup is a permanent cornerstone of crossfit, and it’s like a primary lift… It’s not like you graduate from kipping pullups and move on, you do those suckers all the time, even if you could pull 100 lbs dumbell for 15 at 165 lbs.

116

[quote]Krinks wrote:
The thing is if one has never done pull ups and are overweight. If said person has a weight issue that doesn’t seem to rectify itself without a death camp diet. Kipping pull ups are the way to go. Before I listened to you drones and hurt my shoulder trying to do full rom pull ups, I was up to 6 kipping pull ups which translated to 4 good ones with no kipping.

I’ve lost untold months of progress by having to take two weeks off so far. At my age, 49, two weeks off is like it never happened.

Full rom is the thing of fools who other than to enrich his Orthopedic Surgeon has no other good reason to go all the way down and tranfer the weight from the arms and back to the shoulder capsule. [/quote]

Since I started doing full RoM, I’ve noticed my shoulder feels much better than before. I have more control over the actions of my shoulders, and strength movements that involve the entire shoulder girdle work much better.

I also happen to be 25 years old, so maybe I wouldn’t get as injured as easily?

But, frankly fucking speaking, what you’re saying makes no sense. If you are untrained, then doing any sort of pull/chin-ups is dangerous. You’re basically asking your entire upper body to hold up mass that it has never held up before. It’s like asking someone who’s never squatted before to suddenly squat their body weight; except it’s worse because your shoulders have to deal with the downward pull of your body.

If you are untrained in pull/chin-ups, then you start with the only method of training - negatives. Who the fuck has you start training pull-ups with kippers? It’s stupid. Kipping pullups require you to use the swinging motion effectively so that the upward motion comes mostly from momentum rather than any real pull, and the only real way to use the swinging motion effectively is to put your body into it; which only occurs when you are in close to a deadhang if not in it.

Look. Every one of them are getting into the deadhang position. Every single one. At that point, the only functional difference is whether they actually kip properly or not. Most people cannot.

A proper kipping pullup will have no real effect on building upper body strength, and it really won’t help strengthen your pullup. If you don’t actually kip, then you’re just doing a pullup with a swing that adds a bit of momentum and lightens the load on the upper body muscle. If you actually kip, then it is a good, explosive movement that engages your core and lower body to a great degree.

I’ll say it one more time- The kipping pullup is not really a pullup. It is an explosive movement, and something people properly should be doing on some consistent level, but it is not a pullup substitute.

And CERTAINLY not something an overweight/untrained person should be doing. The force generated from the swing alone will do more damage to your shoulder than any tension on your shoulder girdle from doing full ROM pull/chin-ups.

117

[quote]Krinks wrote:
The thing is if one has never done pull ups and are overweight. If said person has a weight issue that doesn’t seem to rectify itself without a death camp diet. Kipping pull ups are the way to go. Before I listened to you drones and hurt my shoulder trying to do full rom pull ups, I was up to 6 kipping pull ups which translated to 4 good ones with no kipping.

I’ve lost untold months of progress by having to take two weeks off so far. At my age, 49, two weeks off is like it never happened.

Full rom is the thing of fools who other than to enrich his Orthopedic Surgeon has no other good reason to go all the way down and tranfer the weight from the arms and back to the shoulder capsule. [/quote]

Sounds like you tried to jump too far too fast. Full ROM pull-ups are no more dangerous or injury inducing that full ROM squats, UNLESSS you are not ready to perform them due to mobility and/or joint instability (which seems to be your situation).

Your injuring yourself was not due the inherent danger of doing full ROM pull-ups, but instead a result of your own bodies strength and mobility deficiencies within your shoulder girdle. Unfortunately you have taken this to mean that full ROM pull-ups are bad, rather than that you obviously have serious strength and mobility deficiencies which you should remedy and use to build up to the point where you actually can perform full ROM pull-ups safely.

And, I agree with magick; thinking that kipping pull-ups would be a better/safer choice is misguided.

118

seen this online… amazing amazing amazing!!!

119

[quote]spk wrote:
seen this online… amazing amazing amazing!!!

Can’t see embedded vids on my phone, but copying and pasting the link to youtube brings up two videos. If this is the one of the older gentlemen doing 77 dead hang pull-ups (which takes him a little over 8 minutes to complete), then yeah, extremely impressive.

120

Totally agree with pull ups… I have gained the largest amount of growth through them hands down, I also like to switch up the grip to hit the back on different angles but wide grip is definitely my fav!

Heres a video of my most recent back workout… First 3 exercises are different forms of pull ups… Provides awesome stimulation and in my opinion makes the rest of your back workout far more effective.

let me know what you think.

Awesome forum btw, some real good stuff