Do This Routine Instead of That Dumb One

[Cephalic_Carnage]

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]eyegainweightbig wrote:
EDIT: I notice that when you ramp, all your sets have fairly high reps like 10 the first, 10 the second, and 8 to failure the third.
When I ramp, for example, I do 5 reps first set, 3 reps second set, and the third set however many to failure. Weight increases each set. Is this ok? I feel like I can get more weight with less reps on the previous sets.[/quote]

Strictly speaking that is not ramping, that is simply doing two warmup sets and then 1 work set (which in my opinion isn’t all that great for hypertrophy). Ramping is all about priming the muscle for heavier loads than would normally be handled when lifting the usual way. So instead of just 2 warmup sets, you’d ramp (the muscle) by making smaller increments per set and more lower rep sets (typically at least 4-6 sets and going as high as 10).

For a decent growth stimulus you need a fair amount of volume in the 70-90% 1RM range. Or even as low as ~50% of 1RM if speed is utilised (increasing force and therefore fatigue).

Doing 2 warmup sets and 1 work set is not enough volume with a decent load (unless you’re genetically respondent to this). At least with proper ramping, many of the sets prior to the last one counts towards growth. Same principle applies to wave loading (you get enough volume done before failure/performance drops off dramatically).

As a general rule of thumb, I’d say you need at the VERY LEAST 12-15 total reps at a decent intensity/amount of fatigue per exercise
[/quote] Uh, why per exercise? If I do 5 exercises for 4-10 reps each, will I not grow? If I hit the bodypart 3 times a week via 2 exercises each time for less than 12-15 total under work-load per individual exercise, will I not grow?
What if I do 10 reps per exercise under work-load but use slower negatives than you do?
Thinking of volume requirements that way makes no sense to me.
If that were true, doing 20 singles with a 2-3 RM load ala Waterbury would be the best method for size, ever.

[quote]
for growth (which usually translates to at least 2 “working” sets - 1st set close to failure, 2nd set at or very near failure).

Much of all this confusion often lies in the definition of “working set”. Some would only class the last set as the working set, whereas the sets leading up to that one may have been growth inducing.[/quote]

You do realize that people using this method do more than just one exercise per bodypart, right?

-Flat Bench
135x12
225x8
315x5
355x3
405xwork set

+Paused Bench
365xwork set

+Incline Bench
255x3
325xwork set

(plus maybe DB or hammerstrength)

For example…

I call that ramping because you ramp up the weight (and nervous system if you will), same as with a regular flat pyramid, you just drop the reps to conserve energy for the last all-out set.

Some guys like to do more heavy sets per exercise and may end up with (this is closer to what you describe):

135x12
225x8
315x5
355x3
405x, say, 8
425x, say, 5
435x, say, 4

Others like to do the same reps on all sets
135x12
225x12
315x12
365x8

But that does not allow for the same max poundagexreps combination as the first method.

Some do stuff like
135x12
225x12
255x12
275x12
295x12
315x12
325x12

But I don’t think that’s useful as a primary method at all. Better for exercises done at after the big movements just to get a pump or add volume…

, or mix everything together or whatever… The concept is still the same… You add weight each set usually.

We brought the various flat pyramids/ramping methods up years ago on here when everyone thought that Ronnie doing 4x8-12 according to muscle and fitness meant 4 sets of 8-12 with 500 on the bench press, followed by another 4 sets of 405x8-12 on the incline and the same on the decline and people all thought that bodybuilding routines were really that crazy in volume and could never work for a natty… When in fact the majority of pros simply start light and add weight each set.

Most guys on here were doing stuff like
1-2 warm-ups at half working weight, then 3-20 sets at the same weight (depending on whether they were doing Waterbury stuff or everyone else’s… Authors were just writing down “3x12” either actually meaning same weight sets or simply not specifying if they meant ramped sets, such as Thibs).
Or even worse, no warm-ups haha.

[its_just_me]

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]eyegainweightbig wrote:
EDIT: I notice that when you ramp, all your sets have fairly high reps like 10 the first, 10 the second, and 8 to failure the third.
When I ramp, for example, I do 5 reps first set, 3 reps second set, and the third set however many to failure. Weight increases each set. Is this ok? I feel like I can get more weight with less reps on the previous sets.[/quote]

Strictly speaking that is not ramping, that is simply doing two warmup sets and then 1 work set (which in my opinion isn’t all that great for hypertrophy). Ramping is all about priming the muscle for heavier loads than would normally be handled when lifting the usual way. So instead of just 2 warmup sets, you’d ramp (the muscle) by making smaller increments per set and more lower rep sets (typically at least 4-6 sets and going as high as 10).

For a decent growth stimulus you need a fair amount of volume in the 70-90% 1RM range. Or even as low as ~50% of 1RM if speed is utilised (increasing force and therefore fatigue).

Doing 2 warmup sets and 1 work set is not enough volume with a decent load (unless you’re genetically respondent to this). At least with proper ramping, many of the sets prior to the last one counts towards growth. Same principle applies to wave loading (you get enough volume done before failure/performance drops off dramatically).

As a general rule of thumb, I’d say you need at the VERY LEAST 12-15 total reps at a decent intensity/amount of fatigue per exercise
[/quote] Uh, why per exercise? If I do 5 exercises for 4-10 reps each, will I not grow? If I hit the bodypart 3 times a week via 2 exercises each time for less than 12-15 total under work-load per individual exercise, will I not grow?
What if I do 10 reps per exercise under work-load but use slower negatives than you do?
Thinking of volume requirements that way makes no sense to me.
If that were true, doing 20 singles with a 2-3 RM load ala Waterbury would be the best method for size, ever.

for growth (which usually translates to at least 2 “working” sets - 1st set close to failure, 2nd set at or very near failure).

Much of all this confusion often lies in the definition of “working set”. Some would only class the last set as the working set, whereas the sets leading up to that one may have been growth inducing.[/quote]

You do realize that people using this method do more than just one exercise per bodypart, right?

-Flat Bench
135x12
225x8
315x5
355x3
405xwork set

+Paused Bench
365xwork set

+Incline Bench
255x3
325xwork set

(plus maybe DB or hammerstrength)

For example…

I call that ramping because you ramp up the weight (and nervous system if you will), same as with a regular flat pyramid, you just drop the reps to conserve energy for the last all-out set.

Some guys like to do more heavy sets per exercise and may end up with (this is closer to what you describe):

135x12
225x8
315x5
355x3
405x, say, 8
425x, say, 5
435x, say, 4

Others like to do the same reps on all sets
135x12
225x12
315x12
365x8

But that does not allow for the same max poundagexreps combination as the first method.

Some do stuff like
135x12
225x12
255x12
275x12
295x12
315x12
325x12

But I don’t think that’s useful as a primary method at all. Better for exercises done at after the big movements just to get a pump or add volume…

, or mix everything together or whatever… The concept is still the same… You add weight each set usually.

We brought the various flat pyramids/ramping methods up years ago on here when everyone thought that Ronnie doing 4x8-12 according to muscle and fitness meant 4 sets of 8-12 with 500 on the bench press, followed by another 4 sets of 405x8-12 on the incline and the same on the decline and people all thought that bodybuilding routines were really that crazy in volume and could never work for a natty… When in fact the majority of pros simply start light and add weight each set.

Most guys on here were doing stuff like
1-2 warm-ups at half working weight, then 3-20 sets at the same weight (depending on whether they were doing Waterbury stuff or everyone else’s… Authors were just writing down “3x12” either actually meaning same weight sets or simply not specifying if they meant ramped sets, such as Thibs).
Or even worse, no warm-ups haha.

I’m not getting into any particulars here

The main point (which you clearly pointed out) was getting enough total volume in for body parts (especially on the given routines).

[sayonara91]

Wow!!! the Max-Ot styled routine is tha bomb!!! just finished my first week of it and i realy enjoy it!

one thing tho, how long shud i rest between sets since im going to failiure on every set ? shud i rest 45-60 sec or even longer? what is adviceable

also after i finish my warmup sets shud i get right too the working sets or shud i rest there aswell ?

thanks in advance

[Cephalic_Carnage]

[quote]sayonara91 wrote:
Wow!!! the Max-Ot styled routine is tha bomb!!! just finished my first week of it and i realy enjoy it!

one thing tho, how long shud i rest between sets since im going to failiure on every set ? shud i rest 45-60 sec or even longer? what is adviceable

also after i finish my warmup sets shud i get right too the working sets or shud i rest there aswell ?

thanks in advance

[/quote]

Standard Max-OT rest periods between work sets are 2-3 minutes.

Warm-ups… Just do whatever when it comes to rest… Max-OT warm-ups are similar to the first method I described in my post above in response to its_just_me… You don’t need to rest all that long between your last warm-up/acclimation set, just make sure you feel ready. A minute, maybe two at most on stuff like deadlifts.
Your lighter warm-ups don’t require much rest at all. I like a minute as a general guideline, but it depends on how you feel.

If you start with the bar and you can bench, say 225… Then if your next warm-up set is 90 lbs or so, you can do that pretty much right after the set with the bar.
Beyond that though, I would not go with less than 45 sec (or a minute if you want to make it simple).

There is actually a chapter in the max-ot e-book dedicated to warming up and the rest-periods used I think. I do believe they were resting for 2 minutes every now and again? I’ll look it up for you… Though with all that said, don’t worry too much about this sort of thing. As long as you aren’t going too fast (esp. between work sets) and thus affecting progression negatively, you should be fine.

Not that I speak for kingbeef, mind you. He may have his own guidelines for his version of max-ot, so let’s see what he has to say on this.

[sayonara91]

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]sayonara91 wrote:
Wow!!! the Max-Ot styled routine is tha bomb!!! just finished my first week of it and i realy enjoy it!

one thing tho, how long shud i rest between sets since im going to failiure on every set ? shud i rest 45-60 sec or even longer? what is adviceable

also after i finish my warmup sets shud i get right too the working sets or shud i rest there aswell ?

thanks in advance

[/quote]

Standard Max-OT rest periods between work sets are 2-3 minutes.

Warm-ups… Just do whatever when it comes to rest… Max-OT warm-ups are similar to the first method I described in my post above in response to its_just_me… You don’t need to rest all that long between your last warm-up/acclimation set, just make sure you feel ready. A minute, maybe two at most on stuff like deadlifts.
Your lighter warm-ups don’t require much rest at all. I like a minute as a general guideline, but it depends on how you feel.

If you start with the bar and you can bench, say 225… Then if your next warm-up set is 90 lbs or so, you can do that pretty much right after the set with the bar.
Beyond that though, I would not go with less than 45 sec (or a minute if you want to make it simple).

There is actually a chapter in the max-ot e-book dedicated to warming up and the rest-periods used I think. I do believe they were resting for 2 minutes every now and again? I’ll look it up for you… Though with all that said, don’t worry too much about this sort of thing. As long as you aren’t going too fast (esp. between work sets) and thus affecting progression negatively, you should be fine.

Not that I speak for kingbeef, mind you. He may have his own guidelines for his version of max-ot, so let’s see what he has to say on this.
[/quote]

Thank you that helped alot, i feel that im to obssesed with resting accordingly to what other people say instead of how i feel, but il use 1-2 min as a guideline

Also im curious how to do benchpresses and squats, as Toughlove posted above, when u dont have a spotter?. should i add a set? or maybe instead of doing the last rep to failiure i can do a half-rep, so that i wont make an ass of myself at the gym

[Cephalic_Carnage]

[quote]sayonara91 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]sayonara91 wrote:
Wow!!! the Max-Ot styled routine is tha bomb!!! just finished my first week of it and i realy enjoy it!

one thing tho, how long shud i rest between sets since im going to failiure on every set ? shud i rest 45-60 sec or even longer? what is adviceable

also after i finish my warmup sets shud i get right too the working sets or shud i rest there aswell ?

thanks in advance

[/quote]

Standard Max-OT rest periods between work sets are 2-3 minutes.

Warm-ups… Just do whatever when it comes to rest… Max-OT warm-ups are similar to the first method I described in my post above in response to its_just_me… You don’t need to rest all that long between your last warm-up/acclimation set, just make sure you feel ready. A minute, maybe two at most on stuff like deadlifts.
Your lighter warm-ups don’t require much rest at all. I like a minute as a general guideline, but it depends on how you feel.

If you start with the bar and you can bench, say 225… Then if your next warm-up set is 90 lbs or so, you can do that pretty much right after the set with the bar.
Beyond that though, I would not go with less than 45 sec (or a minute if you want to make it simple).

There is actually a chapter in the max-ot e-book dedicated to warming up and the rest-periods used I think. I do believe they were resting for 2 minutes every now and again? I’ll look it up for you… Though with all that said, don’t worry too much about this sort of thing. As long as you aren’t going too fast (esp. between work sets) and thus affecting progression negatively, you should be fine.

Not that I speak for kingbeef, mind you. He may have his own guidelines for his version of max-ot, so let’s see what he has to say on this.
[/quote]

Thank you that helped alot, i feel that im to obssesed with resting accordingly to what other people say instead of how i feel, but il use 1-2 min as a guideline

Also im curious how to do benchpresses and squats, as Toughlove posted above, when u dont have a spotter?. should i add a set? or maybe instead of doing the last rep to failiure i can do a half-rep, so that i wont make an ass of myself at the gym ;)[/quote]

Almost no-one goes to failure on squats in the first place. The regular 2-3 sets done in max-OT routines are fine.

Bench Press… Do you not have a power rack available? Gym staff? Other lifters, esp. regulars?
If you train at home, get a proper rack/cage with pins.
If you train at a gym, start talking to the staff and people who you often see around the time you lift. Explain clearly what you want them to do when they spot you, how many sets you’ll be needing them for. Ask the same people every time if you can. Help them out if they lift there themselves. Let them get used to you and they will spot you properly…
Or get a training partner…

Benching, even non-failure, is always risky. You may end up weak one day due to various factors and a 4-6 reps non-failure weight may end up pinning you after 2-3 reps.

If necessary, ditch barbell benching for DB’s and hammer strength or other machine work (in case of HS machines, put plates under the lever arms so that you don’t have to start your first rep from such a deep stretch, if that is a problem).

Flat Bench doesn’t work well in the smith at all, but inclines can be done there reasonably well.

[kingbeef323]

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]sayonara91 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]sayonara91 wrote:
Wow!!! the Max-Ot styled routine is tha bomb!!! just finished my first week of it and i realy enjoy it!

one thing tho, how long shud i rest between sets since im going to failiure on every set ? shud i rest 45-60 sec or even longer? what is adviceable

also after i finish my warmup sets shud i get right too the working sets or shud i rest there aswell ?

thanks in advance

[/quote]

Standard Max-OT rest periods between work sets are 2-3 minutes.

Warm-ups… Just do whatever when it comes to rest… Max-OT warm-ups are similar to the first method I described in my post above in response to its_just_me… You don’t need to rest all that long between your last warm-up/acclimation set, just make sure you feel ready. A minute, maybe two at most on stuff like deadlifts.
Your lighter warm-ups don’t require much rest at all. I like a minute as a general guideline, but it depends on how you feel.

If you start with the bar and you can bench, say 225… Then if your next warm-up set is 90 lbs or so, you can do that pretty much right after the set with the bar.
Beyond that though, I would not go with less than 45 sec (or a minute if you want to make it simple).

There is actually a chapter in the max-ot e-book dedicated to warming up and the rest-periods used I think. I do believe they were resting for 2 minutes every now and again? I’ll look it up for you… Though with all that said, don’t worry too much about this sort of thing. As long as you aren’t going too fast (esp. between work sets) and thus affecting progression negatively, you should be fine.

Not that I speak for kingbeef, mind you. He may have his own guidelines for his version of max-ot, so let’s see what he has to say on this.
[/quote]

Thank you that helped alot, i feel that im to obssesed with resting accordingly to what other people say instead of how i feel, but il use 1-2 min as a guideline

Also im curious how to do benchpresses and squats, as Toughlove posted above, when u dont have a spotter?. should i add a set? or maybe instead of doing the last rep to failiure i can do a half-rep, so that i wont make an ass of myself at the gym ;)[/quote]

Almost no-one goes to failure on squats in the first place. The regular 2-3 sets done in max-OT routines are fine.

Bench Press… Do you not have a power rack available? Gym staff? Other lifters, esp. regulars?
If you train at home, get a proper rack/cage with pins.
If you train at a gym, start talking to the staff and people who you often see around the time you lift. Explain clearly what you want them to do when they spot you, how many sets you’ll be needing them for. Ask the same people every time if you can. Help them out if they lift there themselves. Let them get used to you and they will spot you properly…
Or get a training partner…

Benching, even non-failure, is always risky. You may end up weak one day due to various factors and a 4-6 reps non-failure weight may end up pinning you after 2-3 reps.

If necessary, ditch barbell benching for DB’s and hammer strength or other machine work (in case of HS machines, put plates under the lever arms so that you don’t have to start your first rep from such a deep stretch, if that is a problem).

Flat Bench doesn’t work well in the smith at all, but inclines can be done there reasonably well.
[/quote]

Personally, I don’t do any kind of benching except for dumbbells anymore. Incline, flat, decline dumbbell is now my “permanent” chest routine. I did that for a while last year and my chest blew up and kept growing then I decided to try working in barbell benching again and my chest shrank. Back to all dumbbells and it’s growing again, not that it will work that way for everyone.

I also like to rest 2-3 mins between work sets. I usually stick around 2:30 but on movements like RDL’s and Squats, I’ll take the full 3 thank you very much, lol.

It always makes me wonder when people talk about not having a spot. It’s like they’re afraid to ask someone competent looking for one when they need it.

Also, I approve of everything C_C said

[sayonara91]

Again thank you, only problem is when i workout not to many people are at the gym and the ones that are, are old ladies and grandpas walking on the treadmil,

i never realy liked benchpress as a chest exercise dont know why tho, and iv tried all different grips, tho as u say dumbbell presses u can really squeez the living shit out of your chest when contracting in top position ima ditch the Benchpress and go flat DB press instead thank you so much

[kingbeef323]

[quote]sayonara91 wrote:
Again thank you, only problem is when i workout not to many people are at the gym and the ones that are, are old ladies and grandpas walking on the treadmil,

i never realy liked benchpress as a chest exercise dont know why tho, and iv tried all different grips, tho as u say dumbbell presses u can really squeez the living shit out of your chest when contracting in top position ima ditch the Benchpress and go flat DB press instead thank you so much

[/quote]

Get a new gym membership. I’m sure there’s got to be a gym somewhere by you where at least somewhat serious lifters train?

[sayonara91]

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:

[quote]sayonara91 wrote:
Again thank you, only problem is when i workout not to many people are at the gym and the ones that are, are old ladies and grandpas walking on the treadmil,

i never realy liked benchpress as a chest exercise dont know why tho, and iv tried all different grips, tho as u say dumbbell presses u can really squeez the living shit out of your chest when contracting in top position ima ditch the Benchpress and go flat DB press instead thank you so much

[/quote]

Get a new gym membership. I’m sure there’s got to be a gym somewhere by you where at least somewhat serious lifters train?
[/quote]

Well where i live there are like 3 gyms that are pretty close and all of thoes are commerical gyms or however you call it, since i live in norway. Lets say the gyms around where live are like ure Planet fitness, except for the lunk alarm (Thank God)… but il check out the other gyms after my membership runs out and hopefully il find somewhat more serious people

one last question -.-… on the (Leg day) how would you lay it up if you had to take away hack squats & legpress (Only have the cybex press at my gym :(, )

[Cephalic_Carnage]

[quote]sayonara91 wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:

[quote]sayonara91 wrote:
Again thank you, only problem is when i workout not to many people are at the gym and the ones that are, are old ladies and grandpas walking on the treadmil,

i never realy liked benchpress as a chest exercise dont know why tho, and iv tried all different grips, tho as u say dumbbell presses u can really squeez the living shit out of your chest when contracting in top position ima ditch the Benchpress and go flat DB press instead thank you so much

[/quote]

Get a new gym membership. I’m sure there’s got to be a gym somewhere by you where at least somewhat serious lifters train?
[/quote]

Well where i live there are like 3 gyms that are pretty close and all of thoes are commerical gyms or however you call it, since i live in norway. Lets say the gyms around where live are like ure Planet fitness, except for the lunk alarm (Thank God)… but il check out the other gyms after my membership runs out and hopefully il find somewhat more serious people
[/quote] Gym staff. They should always be there. If you can’t find serious lifters in any of the gyms available to you, at least try to pick one where the employees are nice enough to help you out (and preferably lift weights themselves).

[quote]
one last question -.-… on the (Leg day) how would you lay it up if you had to take away hack squats & legpress (Only have the cybex press at my gym :(, )[/quote]

Hack machines are somewhat rare, but a commercial gym without a leg press?
Western and central Europe really sucks when it comes to gyms huh? Germany is the same.

[anon23385723]

KingBeef or CC, I’ve also switched tp dumbbells, basically becasue I’ve yet to find anything other then close-grip (Which I still use for Triceps) barbell presses that don’t end up giving my left shouldr pain. And CGBP obviously isnt great for chest development, so dumbbells feel alot better. The only issue is I feel like progress with dumbbells comes very slow, no where near as fast as it does with BB exercises. I’m not sure if it’s having to throw the heavy ones up before every set, or just the stabiliaztion, but it hits my chest so well I dont want to get rid of them. Any adviced or tips??? or is this just how it is with DB’s?

[kingbeef323]

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
KingBeef or CC, I’ve also switched tp dumbbells, basically becasue I’ve yet to find anything other then close-grip (Which I still use for Triceps) barbell presses that don’t end up giving my left shouldr pain. And CGBP obviously isnt great for chest development, so dumbbells feel alot better. The only issue is I feel like progress with dumbbells comes very slow, no where near as fast as it does with BB exercises. I’m not sure if it’s having to throw the heavy ones up before every set, or just the stabiliaztion, but it hits my chest so well I dont want to get rid of them. Any adviced or tips??? or is this just how it is with DB’s?[/quote]

I’m willing to bet you had your elbows flared instead of tucked on your other barbell pressing exercises. Also on the dumbbells I like to tuck my elbows at the bottom as well instead of flaring them out like most people do. That seems to greatly reduce the amount of stress placed on the shoulders, while placing most of it on the chest. Everyone I’ve had try this that said they never got much out of using dumbbells has said it made a tremendous difference in their chest development.

[Cephalic_Carnage]

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
KingBeef or CC, I’ve also switched tp dumbbells, basically becasue I’ve yet to find anything other then close-grip (Which I still use for Triceps) barbell presses that don’t end up giving my left shouldr pain. And CGBP obviously isnt great for chest development, so dumbbells feel alot better. The only issue is I feel like progress with dumbbells comes very slow, no where near as fast as it does with BB exercises. I’m not sure if it’s having to throw the heavy ones up before every set, or just the stabiliaztion, but it hits my chest so well I dont want to get rid of them. Any adviced or tips??? or is this just how it is with DB’s?[/quote]

I’m willing to bet you had your elbows flared instead of tucked on your other barbell pressing exercises. Also on the dumbbells I like to tuck my elbows at the bottom as well instead of flaring them out like most people do. That seems to greatly reduce the amount of stress placed on the shoulders, while placing most of it on the chest. Everyone I’ve had try this that said they never got much out of using dumbbells has said it made a tremendous difference in their chest development.[/quote]

I agree… Elbows flared DB presses, at least on the flat bench (I can flare on the 45 deg incline, feels natural in that plane), feels horrible at the bottom, can’t get a stretch that way at all… It’s like I’m just overstretching the shoulder capsule rather than placing emphasis on the chest.

Fwiw, like to use the Flat BB simply as a strength/ego exercise. I don’t want to tear a pec either… So I pretty much do them in a way that’ almost zero chest really, goes more along the tris delts and back.
However, it helps me progress on all my pressing… So I do them as a pure strength thing and don’t expect any pec size out of that… Then I do DB and/OR HS machine work to actually hit the chest.

Due to the increases on the flat bench (and/or incline BB, feels more natural and actually hits the chest as well in my case, but still no contest compared to DB/HS… But Incline is a hybrid, it hits the chest somewhat and it allows for easier progression than DB work, but it does not compare to the flat BB in terms of strength gains and max poundages, and neither does it do the chest size thing as well as DB’s do), my DB work goes up easier as well (initially you will be weaker doing them after flat strength work, but with time, if your flat and/or incline increase quickly enough, your DB strength will come up very fast too).

So if you can’t seem to make much progress on DB’s, consider adding some dedicated strength work… Where you place it, how often and how you do it depends on your overall routine…
It will likely require deloading at certain intervals though, or some such, if you aren’t already doing that.

In Max-OT you could just do it the regular Max-OT way in terms of sets and reps, then some more (remember to warm-up fully again at least on the first DB or HS exercise… They stress the chest much more after all!) max-ot stuff and maybe 1 lighter, ramped or straight-setted exercise for the pump with lighter weights (if you ramp that one, go with small weight jumps and high rep sets).

I like that approach in general:
Use the powerlifts or their variations as actual powerlifts rather than trying to turn them into pure BB exercises which would reduce their effectiveness at gaining strength and add injury potential at least for the squat and bench for many people…
Then do another heavy exercise or two which actually hits the target bodypart/muscle-group effectively for you (not as heavy as the strength exercise usually, just regular work).
Then, whatever else you do will be lighter, volume stuff for the pump.
Deload or take time off or whatever as necessary. You’ll develop a feel for that eventually.

With this, you can get your numbers much higher imo than if you were just doing all exercises BB style or just heavy db’s etc… Also helps get much stronger on arm exercises for example…

If necessary, one could warm-up with a more focused move before the strength exercise.

[anon23385723]

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
KingBeef or CC, I’ve also switched tp dumbbells, basically becasue I’ve yet to find anything other then close-grip (Which I still use for Triceps) barbell presses that don’t end up giving my left shouldr pain. And CGBP obviously isnt great for chest development, so dumbbells feel alot better. The only issue is I feel like progress with dumbbells comes very slow, no where near as fast as it does with BB exercises. I’m not sure if it’s having to throw the heavy ones up before every set, or just the stabiliaztion, but it hits my chest so well I dont want to get rid of them. Any adviced or tips??? or is this just how it is with DB’s?[/quote]

I’m willing to bet you had your elbows flared instead of tucked on your other barbell pressing exercises. Also on the dumbbells I like to tuck my elbows at the bottom as well instead of flaring them out like most people do. That seems to greatly reduce the amount of stress placed on the shoulders, while placing most of it on the chest. Everyone I’ve had try this that said they never got much out of using dumbbells has said it made a tremendous difference in their chest development.[/quote]

I agree… Elbows flared DB presses, at least on the flat bench (I can flare on the 45 deg incline, feels natural in that plane), feels horrible at the bottom, can’t get a stretch that way at all… It’s like I’m just overstretching the shoulder capsule rather than placing emphasis on the chest.

Fwiw, like to use the Flat BB simply as a strength/ego exercise. I don’t want to tear a pec either… So I pretty much do them in a way that’ almost zero chest really, goes more along the tris delts and back.
However, it helps me progress on all my pressing… So I do them as a pure strength thing and don’t expect any pec size out of that… Then I do DB and/OR HS machine work to actually hit the chest.

Due to the increases on the flat bench (and/or incline BB, feels more natural and actually hits the chest as well in my case, but still no contest compared to DB/HS… But Incline is a hybrid, it hits the chest somewhat and it allows for easier progression than DB work, but it does not compare to the flat BB in terms of strength gains and max poundages, and neither does it do the chest size thing as well as DB’s do), my DB work goes up easier as well (initially you will be weaker doing them after flat strength work, but with time, if your flat and/or incline increase quickly enough, your DB strength will come up very fast too).

So if you can’t seem to make much progress on DB’s, consider adding some dedicated strength work… Where you place it, how often and how you do it depends on your overall routine…
It will likely require deloading at certain intervals though, or some such, if you aren’t already doing that.

In Max-OT you could just do it the regular Max-OT way in terms of sets and reps, then some more (remember to warm-up fully again at least on the first DB or HS exercise… They stress the chest much more after all!) max-ot stuff and maybe 1 lighter, ramped or straight-setted exercise for the pump with lighter weights (if you ramp that one, go with small weight jumps and high rep sets).

I like that approach in general:
Use the powerlifts or their variations as actual powerlifts rather than trying to turn them into pure BB exercises which would reduce their effectiveness at gaining strength and add injury potential at least for the squat and bench for many people…
Then do another heavy exercise or two which actually hits the target bodypart/muscle-group effectively for you (not as heavy as the strength exercise usually, just regular work).
Then, whatever else you do will be lighter, volume stuff for the pump.
Deload or take time off or whatever as necessary. You’ll develop a feel for that eventually.

With this, you can get your numbers much higher imo than if you were just doing all exercises BB style or just heavy db’s etc… Also helps get much stronger on arm exercises for example…

If necessary, one could warm-up with a more focused move before the strength exercise. [/quote]

Thanks guys. I actually go the ‘tuck at bottom, flare at top’ on DB presses, and tucking my elbows the entire time is the ONLY way I can BB press, but as CC said, that involves basically no zero chest. I have been considering taking a deload here lately, but it’s my pressing that stalling, none of my pulling (have really long arms, and any type of pull exercise come naturally to me.), so I could I possibly just deload on my pressing for a weak maybe, but continue to pound away on my pulling exercises??? or is that a dumb idea all together??

[Cephalic_Carnage]

Ah, actually you can involve your chest even with tucked elbows especially if you don’t tuck all the way but go with 45 deg or so… And if you do not “pull the bar apart” basically.

Might also help to slow your rep speed down, even on the positive (not something I’d usually do, but the more explosive you lift or the heavier you go, i.e. the more force you need to generate relative to your max, the more your recruitment will shift towards the muscles which are stronger so in your case tris, delts, back if you do it a certain way… Especially if you have a shitty mind muscle connection and can’t initiate the rep with the right muscle-group on purpose.

So on DB presses you could try that for a bit for example, go with a 45 deg tuck or even flare some more, a somewhat slower, smoother rep speed… Might help…

[anon23385723]

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Ah, actually you can involve your chest even with tucked elbows especially if you don’t tuck all the way but go with 45 deg or so… And if you do not “pull the bar apart” basically.

Might also help to slow your rep speed down, even on the positive (not something I’d usually do, but the more explosive you lift or the heavier you go, i.e. the more force you need to generate relative to your max, the more your recruitment will shift towards the muscles which are stronger so in your case tris, delts, back if you do it a certain way… Especially if you have a shitty mind muscle connection and can’t initiate the rep with the right muscle-group on purpose.

So on DB presses you could try that for a bit for example, go with a 45 deg tuck or even flare some more, a somewhat slower, smoother rep speed… Might help…[/quote]

Hmm… I wouldn’t have ever even thought of slowing the rep down… seems to contradict alot of what you read now of days… but I’ll give it a shot. I appreciate the help. Sorry for the hijack

[Liv92]

C_C with the Dorian Yates routine posted in the first page of this thread… would it be possible to make it 4 days on 1 day off? So basically training the whole body twice in 8 days. I would also put a neural charge workout in the day off to help with recovery. & do that 3 cycles heavy 1 cycle high reps/pump thing you talked about in the T-cell thread. What do you think?

/hijack.

[sayonara91]

one last question -.-… on the (Leg day) how would you lay it up if you had to take away hack squats & legpress (Only have the cybex press at my gym :(, )[/quote]

Hack machines are somewhat rare, but a commercial gym without a leg press?
Western and central Europe really sucks when it comes to gyms huh? Germany is the same.

Well the gym staff is never in the actual gym, they sit at the reception pretty much all the time…

but still i need help to figure out how to do on th Leg Day since i wont be able to use Hack Squat and the leg press. How much difference is it in doing leg presses as to cybex leg presses ?

also is the max-ot routine good for mass ? or is it more for gaining strength ?

[solidkhalid]

I’ve found that size is a side effect of strength…