Do This Routine Instead of That Dumb One

Training
221

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I have a question KB. I really love the 2x a week, push/pull/legs routine, been using it since around February, it’s perfect for me. I was curious as too why, other then that split, why all your other splits are 1x a week frequency per bodypart. Do you overall prefer that type of split and find it optimal, or do you actually like hitting a bodypart more then once a week, thats just not how MAX-OT is laid out?? [/quote]

I suppose it’s just coincidence that I’ve posted more 1x a week routines, I like to switch up frequencies every now and then when I get bored. I’ll throw up a new 2x a week frequency routine sometime in the near future.

[quote]David1991 wrote:
Hey KB would you mind sharing what specifically you about your current new routine (the one on pg. 7) over your modified MAX-OT routine? I know both are good but you mentioned the current one is an all time favorite I believe.

By the way is this that density training by John R. you were talking about? http://www.T-Nation.com/testosterone-magazine-623#density-training seems to be mentioned for fat loss[/quote]

I’m assuming you mean what I like more about it. It’s not necessarily the style of training but more the layout of the split and the improved conditioning from the supersets.

As far as density training I don’t follow anything specific really. To me density training is just increasing workload done in a certain amount of time, which you can do in a variety of ways. My preferred method is having a certain amount of sets to get done with a constant rest period and trying to gradually increase #'s on all sets. I’ll include this in the next routine I post as I’m probably going to do something like that for my next “training cycle.”

222

Today I did the leg workout and it was awesome (a couple variations and substitutions though) but yeah hamstrings first was great, I felt more warmed up for the squatting moves.

I would just like to clarify if how I am ramping is ok:
the number of reps on my sets are 8, 5, 3, failure (usually around 8)

example from db split squats:

first set-8 reps bodyweight
second set-5 reps 15s
third set- 3 reps 30s
fourth set- 8 reps (failure) with 40s

1)look ok?

  1. also, on my left leg I could only get 6, so I rested for a minute then banged out the last two. Is that a good way? just keep resting until I complete the amount of reps I did in my dominant leg?

Thankss man well appreciated

223

Traps, calves, and hamstrings are in the wonderful state of DOMS.

224

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:
Everyone alright with me adding this to the sticky?[/quote]

Everyone except Kvetch probably, lol.

Anyway, here’s a higher frequency routine that I’ve used with great success for those who want to try hitting each bodypart 2x a week and have 6 days a week to workout. People like to call this “push/pull/legs.”

*1 set to failure for each exercise except where otherwise noted
*rest 90-120 secs between ramp sets and up to 3 mins before final set to failure
*should be able to finish these workouts in an hour or less
Monday - Chest/Shoulders/Tri’s

Lo Incline Dumbbell Press- 3x4-8
Decline Barbell Press- 2x6-10
Seated overhead Barbell press- 3x6-10
Cable Lateral raises- 3x6-10
Shrugs- 3x6-10
Lying Behind the head extensions- 3x6-10
1 arm overhead extensions- 2x6-10

Tuesday - Back/Bi’s/Calves

Weighted Pull ups- 3x4-6
Seated straight bar Rows- 3x8-10
Pinwheel Curls- 3x4-8
Incline curls- 3x4-8
Standing Calf Raises- 3x4-8 (2)
Leg Press Calf Raises- 2x12-15

Wednesday - Legs/Abs

Seated Leg Curls- 3x6-10
RDL’s- 3x6-10
Leg Press- 3x6-10
Front Squats- 3x4-8
Weighted crunches- 3x12-15
Weighted planks- 3x30secs (weight on lowerback/glutes)

Thursday - Chest/Shoulders/Tri’s

Flat Dumbbell Press- 3x4-8
Incline Barbell Press- 2x6-10
Seated Overhead dumbbell Press- 3x6-10
Dumbbell lateral raises- 3x6-10
Machine Dips- 3x6-10
French Press (can you tell I love these?)- 2x6-10

Friday - Back/Bi’s/Calves

Barbell Rows- 3x6-10
Straight bar Pulldowns (shoulder with grip)- 3x6-10
Alt Dumbbell Curls- 3x6-10
Reverse Preacher curls- 2x6-10
Seated Calf Raises-5x6-12 (3)

Saturday - Legs/Abs

Lying Leg curls- 3x4-8
Single Leg curls- 2x6-10
Squats- 3x6-10
Hack Squats (close stance)- 3x6-10
Cable Rope crunches- 3x12-15
Weighted leg raises- 2x12-15
[/quote]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but…

I just started a push/pull legs split similar to this about a month ago. I started off doing chest presses with shoulder presses directly after on both push days like you have here and found real quick shoulder pressing strength is way down after chest pressing. So instead of hitting chest first on both push days, I hit chest firts on my first push day of the week, and shoulders first on my second push day of the week. On the days I hit chest first, I will do 4-6 rep sets and my shoulder workout after is more pump focused, and vice-versda on shoulder first push day. Just a small change that’s made a difference for me.

225

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:

[quote]mr popular wrote:
Everyone alright with me adding this to the sticky?[/quote]

Everyone except Kvetch probably, lol.

Anyway, here’s a higher frequency routine that I’ve used with great success for those who want to try hitting each bodypart 2x a week and have 6 days a week to workout. People like to call this “push/pull/legs.”

*1 set to failure for each exercise except where otherwise noted
*rest 90-120 secs between ramp sets and up to 3 mins before final set to failure
*should be able to finish these workouts in an hour or less
Monday - Chest/Shoulders/Tri’s

Lo Incline Dumbbell Press- 3x4-8
Decline Barbell Press- 2x6-10
Seated overhead Barbell press- 3x6-10
Cable Lateral raises- 3x6-10
Shrugs- 3x6-10
Lying Behind the head extensions- 3x6-10
1 arm overhead extensions- 2x6-10

Tuesday - Back/Bi’s/Calves

Weighted Pull ups- 3x4-6
Seated straight bar Rows- 3x8-10
Pinwheel Curls- 3x4-8
Incline curls- 3x4-8
Standing Calf Raises- 3x4-8 (2)
Leg Press Calf Raises- 2x12-15

Wednesday - Legs/Abs

Seated Leg Curls- 3x6-10
RDL’s- 3x6-10
Leg Press- 3x6-10
Front Squats- 3x4-8
Weighted crunches- 3x12-15
Weighted planks- 3x30secs (weight on lowerback/glutes)

Thursday - Chest/Shoulders/Tri’s

Flat Dumbbell Press- 3x4-8
Incline Barbell Press- 2x6-10
Seated Overhead dumbbell Press- 3x6-10
Dumbbell lateral raises- 3x6-10
Machine Dips- 3x6-10
French Press (can you tell I love these?)- 2x6-10

Friday - Back/Bi’s/Calves

Barbell Rows- 3x6-10
Straight bar Pulldowns (shoulder with grip)- 3x6-10
Alt Dumbbell Curls- 3x6-10
Reverse Preacher curls- 2x6-10
Seated Calf Raises-5x6-12 (3)

Saturday - Legs/Abs

Lying Leg curls- 3x4-8
Single Leg curls- 2x6-10
Squats- 3x6-10
Hack Squats (close stance)- 3x6-10
Cable Rope crunches- 3x12-15
Weighted leg raises- 2x12-15
[/quote]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but…

I just started a push/pull legs split similar to this about a month ago. I started off doing chest presses with shoulder presses directly after on both push days like you have here and found real quick shoulder pressing strength is way down after chest pressing. So instead of hitting chest first on both push days, I hit chest firts on my first push day of the week, and shoulders first on my second push day of the week. On the days I hit chest first, I will do 4-6 rep sets and my shoulder workout after is more pump focused, and vice-versda on shoulder first push day. Just a small change that’s made a difference for me.

[/quote]

Yeah, I do that too sometimes when I do that split, though ultimately I really don’t think it matters as far as hypertrophy as long as your “weakened state” shoulder pressing strength increases along with everything else.

This is something I’ve been thinking about lately, especially with regards to injury prevention. I feel like it doesn’t matter where you have an exercise in your routine as long as you consistently get stronger on that exercise where ever it is in your routine (for bodybuilding purposes, obviously). I’m playing with arranging my workouts starting with the exercise least likely to cause injury and finishing with the exercise most likely to cause injury so I don’t have to use as much weight on it.

Injury prevention definitely is going to be top priority as far as how I design my routines from now on. It’s so true that incurring injuries makes you a better/smarter bodybuilder.

1 Like
226

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
This is something I’ve been thinking about lately, especially with regards to injury prevention. I feel like it doesn’t matter where you have an exercise in your routine as long as you consistently get stronger on that exercise where ever it is in your routine (for bodybuilding purposes, obviously). I’m playing with arranging my workouts starting with the exercise least likely to cause injury and finishing with the exercise most likely to cause injury so I don’t have to use as much weight on it.

Injury prevention definitely is going to be top priority as far as how I design my routines from now on. It’s so true that incurring injuries makes you a better/smarter bodybuilder.[/quote]

I’ve talked to a lot of big guys who feel the same way. Makes complete sense to me. If you’re squatting 405 at the start but can only do 315 at the end, who cares if the weight you rep out goes up 50lb either way. Having said that, an aside is sometimes the strength increases when you’ve just put it later in the workout can be from getting used to doing that. I remember when I switched BB bench to after shoulder pressing as per CT’s recommendation it went down like 20lb or so but was quickly back up to my old max weights…even though my working weight wouldn’t have been 20lb higher had I put it back as a first exercise.

By the way I like the concept of keeping in staple exercises while changing around the routine and whatnot for variety, another thing most big guys seem to do. Out of curiosity how often do you personally change your routine (whether it be the split, exercise order, etc.)?

227

That is a very interesting concept about putting those exercises last. I kinda felt like thats how the leg routine is, it felt great

228

So, for the next 3-4 months I’m going to have a lot of time on my hands, and I’m thinking about how to maximize my training. I’m using the max-OT template KB posted on the first page of this thread. I wonder, what do you guys think about splitting the training up into two sessions, one right after breakfast and one in the early evening?

I’ve read a few threads on the subject, and the consensus seems to be that you should train heavy with low reps in the AM, and higher rep isolation exercises in the PM.

If you were going to do it for say chest/tri day, then you’d do your compound presses in the morning, and extensions and flies etc at night.

Thoughts?

229

Been reading and following this thread for awhile. First off , Thanks KB! I have done Max OT for several years in the past with great success. Unfortunately I had the same issue as KB, training ADD. And went off somewhere else. This thread is basically a wake up call. With that said I have also started combining chest, shoulders and tris.

Well actually start with shoulder press, then chest and tris. I feel that by starting with shoulders, it acts like a warm up for he pressing muscles. I have actually hit PRs on shoulder press and chest presses on the same workout. Definitely keeping it in that order. I also superset pressing with rhomboid work, as per CT’s HP mass.

Thanks to all in this thread for all your inputs especially KB!

230

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
So, for the next 3-4 months I’m going to have a lot of time on my hands, and I’m thinking about how to maximize my training. I’m using the max-OT template KB posted on the first page of this thread. I wonder, what do you guys think about splitting the training up into two sessions, one right after breakfast and one in the early evening?

I’ve read a few threads on the subject, and the consensus seems to be that you should train heavy with low reps in the AM, and higher rep isolation exercises in the PM.

If you were going to do it for say chest/tri day, then you’d do your compound presses in the morning, and extensions and flies etc at night.

Thoughts?[/quote]

I would advise against it… Just give 100% effort in the one session. The guys who wrote the program have commented on this before saying that you basically start recovering when you stop training, and training again later that night will redamage the muscle and interrupt the recovery process.

Of course, you could always try it out, but I would advise just doing the Max-OT training in the AM, and if you have the time to go back at night just go back and do some Max-OT Cardio. Rev’s up the metabolism, allows you to eat more food, keeps fat gains at bay during a bulk, and burns more fat during a cut… Really cant go wrong.

231

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
So, for the next 3-4 months I’m going to have a lot of time on my hands, and I’m thinking about how to maximize my training. I’m using the max-OT template KB posted on the first page of this thread. I wonder, what do you guys think about splitting the training up into two sessions, one right after breakfast and one in the early evening?

I’ve read a few threads on the subject, and the consensus seems to be that you should train heavy with low reps in the AM, and higher rep isolation exercises in the PM.

If you were going to do it for say chest/tri day, then you’d do your compound presses in the morning, and extensions and flies etc at night.

Thoughts?[/quote]

I would advise against it… Just give 100% effort in the one session. The guys who wrote the program have commented on this before saying that you basically start recovering when you stop training, and training again later that night will redamage the muscle and interrupt the recovery process.

Of course, you could always try it out, but I would advise just doing the Max-OT training in the AM, and if you have the time to go back at night just go back and do some Max-OT Cardio. Rev’s up the metabolism, allows you to eat more food, keeps fat gains at bay during a bulk, and burns more fat during a cut… Really cant go wrong.[/quote]

You do have a point there about recovery. Morning cardio and weights in the evening is a tried and true formula. I do get on the treadmill a few times a week even when gaining.

232

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
So, for the next 3-4 months I’m going to have a lot of time on my hands, and I’m thinking about how to maximize my training. I’m using the max-OT template KB posted on the first page of this thread. I wonder, what do you guys think about splitting the training up into two sessions, one right after breakfast and one in the early evening?

I’ve read a few threads on the subject, and the consensus seems to be that you should train heavy with low reps in the AM, and higher rep isolation exercises in the PM.

If you were going to do it for say chest/tri day, then you’d do your compound presses in the morning, and extensions and flies etc at night.

Thoughts?[/quote]

I’ve been doing this for a few months and the intensity/focus of the sessions is through the roof. For me personally I use a ton of volume, so I tend to drag towards the end of the session. In splitting up my training everything is improving for the better. Try it out and see if it works for you.

233

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
So, for the next 3-4 months I’m going to have a lot of time on my hands, and I’m thinking about how to maximize my training. I’m using the max-OT template KB posted on the first page of this thread. I wonder, what do you guys think about splitting the training up into two sessions, one right after breakfast and one in the early evening?

I’ve read a few threads on the subject, and the consensus seems to be that you should train heavy with low reps in the AM, and higher rep isolation exercises in the PM.

If you were going to do it for say chest/tri day, then you’d do your compound presses in the morning, and extensions and flies etc at night.

Thoughts?[/quote]

I would advise against it… Just give 100% effort in the one session. The guys who wrote the program have commented on this before saying that you basically start recovering when you stop training, and training again later that night will redamage the muscle and interrupt the recovery process.

Of course, you could always try it out, but I would advise just doing the Max-OT training in the AM, and if you have the time to go back at night just go back and do some Max-OT Cardio. Rev’s up the metabolism, allows you to eat more food, keeps fat gains at bay during a bulk, and burns more fat during a cut… Really cant go wrong.[/quote]

Agree with this. No point in splitting up a workout that’ll take you less than 50 mins anyway. Especially something like chest/tris where after hitting your compounds, you’ll be all nice and warmed up for extensions.

Speaking of extensions I’d highly recommend either only doing them every other week or increasing the rep range to like 8-10, 10-12, if you’re going to train MAX-OT style. I’ve done it with the lower reps before and did it for a while but now my left elbow hates me and it’s still not recovered because I was going too low in reps on extensions and it’s hindering my tricep training. Think about it!

234

[quote]nik133 wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
So, for the next 3-4 months I’m going to have a lot of time on my hands, and I’m thinking about how to maximize my training. I’m using the max-OT template KB posted on the first page of this thread. I wonder, what do you guys think about splitting the training up into two sessions, one right after breakfast and one in the early evening?

I’ve read a few threads on the subject, and the consensus seems to be that you should train heavy with low reps in the AM, and higher rep isolation exercises in the PM.

If you were going to do it for say chest/tri day, then you’d do your compound presses in the morning, and extensions and flies etc at night.

Thoughts?[/quote]

I’ve been doing this for a few months and the intensity/focus of the sessions is through the roof. For me personally I use a ton of volume, so I tend to drag towards the end of the session. In splitting up my training everything is improving for the better. Try it out and see if it works for you.
[/quote]

I do believe that dividing the volume in 2 will allow me to use bigger weights on those exercises that usually come later in the workout. Training monday-friday twice a day might be more than I can recover from, but you never know if you don’t try.

BUT, what I’m doing right now is working. So yeah there is some training ADD going on here.

235

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
So, for the next 3-4 months I’m going to have a lot of time on my hands, and I’m thinking about how to maximize my training. I’m using the max-OT template KB posted on the first page of this thread. I wonder, what do you guys think about splitting the training up into two sessions, one right after breakfast and one in the early evening?

I’ve read a few threads on the subject, and the consensus seems to be that you should train heavy with low reps in the AM, and higher rep isolation exercises in the PM.

If you were going to do it for say chest/tri day, then you’d do your compound presses in the morning, and extensions and flies etc at night.

Thoughts?[/quote]

I would advise against it… Just give 100% effort in the one session. The guys who wrote the program have commented on this before saying that you basically start recovering when you stop training, and training again later that night will redamage the muscle and interrupt the recovery process.

Of course, you could always try it out, but I would advise just doing the Max-OT training in the AM, and if you have the time to go back at night just go back and do some Max-OT Cardio. Rev’s up the metabolism, allows you to eat more food, keeps fat gains at bay during a bulk, and burns more fat during a cut… Really cant go wrong.[/quote]

Agree with this. No point in splitting up a workout that’ll take you less than 50 mins anyway. Especially something like chest/tris where after hitting your compounds, you’ll be all nice and warmed up for extensions.

Speaking of extensions I’d highly recommend either only doing them every other week or increasing the rep range to like 8-10, 10-12, if you’re going to train MAX-OT style. I’ve done it with the lower reps before and did it for a while but now my left elbow hates me and it’s still not recovered because I was going too low in reps on extensions and it’s hindering my tricep training. Think about it![/quote]

Yep. I’ve never gone below 8 reps for triceps extensions, and I never will. I like to do them lying on a bench and bringing the bar behind my head. I rest it there for a split second and explode back up. Great exercise, but as you say it can be hell on the elbows. I set my rep ranges a little higher in general, 6-8 rather than 4-8. Though an exercise like front squats I’ll go as low as 3-4 all the time.

236

KB- any basic reccomendations for the best sort of “extra” tricep and bicep work if you already have an arm day. I go:

Chest
Back
Quads
Shoulders
Arms
Hams
Repeat

So I have my set-up I like going on arm day but wondered what you’d throw in extra on chest day and back day and whether the additional work was likely to be just one exercise for a few sets, with higher reps then normal and a focus on the pump (as I’m doing now) or perhaps going all out on a different movement to those done on arm day? This is baring in mind trying to bring arms up

237

Iv recently started cutting and i wanna keep doing the max-ot 5 day split, just wondering if its alright do use it during a cut aswell ?

238

[quote]jake_j_m wrote:
KB- any basic reccomendations for the best sort of “extra” tricep and bicep work if you already have an arm day. I go:

Chest
Back
Quads
Shoulders
Arms
Hams
Repeat

So I have my set-up I like going on arm day but wondered what you’d throw in extra on chest day and back day and whether the additional work was likely to be just one exercise for a few sets, with higher reps then normal and a focus on the pump (as I’m doing now) or perhaps going all out on a different movement to those done on arm day? This is baring in mind trying to bring arms up[/quote]

If it were me, I’d do heavier arm work on the arm day and on chest day throw in 2 “pump” exercises for tri’s and on back day 2 “pump” exercises for bi’s. Probably something like 6x12 on each exercise with 45ish secs rest.

[quote]Sayonara wrote:
Iv recently started cutting and i wanna keep doing the max-ot 5 day split, just wondering if its alright do use it during a cut aswell ?[/quote]

It’s perfectly fine to use on a cut. Remember, the type of training you used to build the muscle will be the type of training best to maintain it on a cut.

How long have you been doing it and what kind of results are you seeing?

239

[quote]It’s perfectly fine to use on a cut. Remember, the type of training you used to build the muscle will be the type of training best to maintain it on a cut.

How long have you been doing it and what kind of results are you seeing?[/quote]

I started using it when i went on my second bulk cycle and i really love how you are able to focus on the muscle your training since the workouts are pretty short, so iv been on it for a little longer then 3 months,

well il give u some exercises that i can remember making progress in,

inclein db press i started on 25kgs and was able to do about 8 reps and last time i hitted 7 reps with 32,5kgs

BB rows i started on 55kg and im currently on 70kgs

RDL’s i started on 80kgs and currently on 110

DB shoulder press i started on 22kgs and currently on 27

so strength wise its been working pretty damn good tho i dont feel much bigger, but i guess thats just a phase im going thru, im thinking of going back to a classic split and do last sets to failiure, since i prefer putting on mass befor strength

240

[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
If it were me, I’d do heavier arm work on the arm day and on chest day throw in 2 “pump” exercises for tri’s and on back day 2 “pump” exercises for bi’s. Probably something like 6x12 on each exercise with 45ish secs rest.
[/quote]

Good to know I’m on roughly the right track, at the moment I was doing DB skulls on chest day for 8-15 reps x 3 sets, and on back day either preacher dbs or seated alt’s with a focus on higher reps. My rest periods were still probably 90 seconds so I will focus on <60 seconds and try a 6 x 12 focusing on the pump. Since I’m not focused on weights moved in extra work I can’t really lose out by giving it a try. Would you still ramp on this extra work or just stick with a weight around “12rm” for every set? Thanks KB