I’m not even part of the conversation; I just think you opened yourself up to it with the way you phrased what you said. As far as I can tell, I’m in close-to-full agreement with you on the rest.
I know you deleted the post, so hopefully you don’t mind my reply, but thanks for the offer.
I think we actually agree on plenty of things.
I grew up (and still live) in a relatively small town in South Dakota. I was raised as a Christian, and believe in that. I’m also Lakota, and the teachings I’ve received from that culture are pretty “traditional” - like that men are supposed to be strong, and provide and protect.
Overall, I’m pretty traditional. I’m anti-porn, anti… “high body counts” 
, 99% anti-abortion (I don’t agree with the idea of it or most of the cases, but have seen instances where I think it might’ve been better for all parties to allow…it’s tough), anti-plenty of other stuff that’s being allowed or even pushed these days.
But for me, my own religious views come into play with a lot of these things. I see it all as broken people doing things that broken people do, and rather than judging them like people on one side do, or encouraging it like people on the other side do, I feel genuine pity and compassion for them, and want to help. I believe that that’s what I’m called to do and I try my best to live that out.
I guess the issue that I take with some of your posts is that while I think we land at the same place, I don’t see us getting there the same way. And that’s okay. We don’t have to agree. I wouldn’t bother replying to you if I didn’t think you ever said anything important. I don’t respond to Castoli or other idiots on here.
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Well this certainly helps some of your posts make sense, especially considering the small and likely somewhat secluded community you mentioned limiting exposure to a broader existence and solidifying the limited scope of life you have been exposed to.
Religions of all stripes, including cults, do a great job of elevating themselves on a pedestal above others, frame others as chafe for example, and curate a sense of elevated existence through belonging.
There is almost no objective thought allowed with training to avoid it as it would deconstruct everything, so blind faith combined with fear (hell for modern western Christians, violent death and hell for Muslims et cetera) becomes a hammer of created “truth” and discernment over right and wrong when really every belief system is a propagated set of ideas with no real basis beyond choice of belief as the force that drives it.
It’s always interesting to me that people who buy in view themselves as the stronger, more complete set of individuals when really they’re relying on a pretty fantastically imaginative third party to tell them who they are, how to act, what to value et cetera. It seems to me, objectively, people who can’t find self-assuredness and need to belong to a group with a prescribed set of beliefs for a sense of worth are the weak and broken ones. And believe me, I know your training will tell you to reject this as “the devil” twisting “truth” and mirroring “worldly wisdom” at you.
Not dogging you necessarily, tens and I’m sure hundreds of millions of people agree with you (or at least convince themselves they do), and I don’t really have a point related to the broader topic of the thread but it’s interesting to understand the psychology of people I interact with.
So you’re calling him a hypocrite?
No. I believe he believes what he preaches (or convinces himself he does), and likely strives to adhere to it.
I find it interesting that atheists/non-believers are often fans of discussing religion. Religious people discussing religion is understandable, because they are trying to convert(thus help/save) their opponent.
What is the motivation for atheists to debate with believers? If the religious person is wrong, he’ll just die one day like everyone else-no harm caused by his believing in whatever. So, that can’t be it. The only reasons I can think of are self-doubt(the atheist lives in fear that he may be wrong) and evil.
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Checkmate
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I can only speak for myself, but when I was an atheist I just enjoyed beating up on the Christians. I wanted to see if they ever thought why they were Christians, not to mention I just liked spirited conversation. It was amazing to me how little most Christians knew about the Bible.
That seems strange, to me. I can’t imagine enjoying “beating up on” people who believe the grass is purple, in a debate over the color of grass.
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Seemed fair game to me. You gonna tell me about your belief, I let you know what I think about it.
Surely, you don’t believe I just walked up to a person and asked, “Are you a Christian?” And then lit into them, do you?
Lol. Dude, I don’t live on a farm in Nebraska in 1890. I’m just saying it’s tens of thousands of people, not millions. But I also lived in Europe for a few years and have spent probably the equivalent of that time throughout my life in the Twin Cities.
My faith teaches me that I am no better than anyone else who has ever lived.
I haven’t been trained. I don’t think you’re the devil - I just think you’re someone who has different beliefs than me. Oh well.
That I find solace in belonging to groups comes more from my culture than my religion. I don’t believe in individualism and I think I differ from many (American) Christians in that. Even if they say they don’t, most of them live primarily as Americans rather than Christians, and they do. I choose to belong to a group with a prescribed set of beliefs because that’s how my ancestors lived and I think it’s a superior way of living in many ways compared to the alternative.
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I was specifically talking about “enjoy.” I can’t imagine taking any joy in debating delusional people.
I thought you were talking about churchgoers knocking on doors, or sitting at a table at events, etc. Even at work, I can’t imagine deriving any pleasure from “beating up on” a delusional person in a debate.
“Did you know the grass is red?”-Bob
“The grass is green.”-Me
“No. It’s red. Let me tell you how I know that-it’s all in this little book.”-Bob
“Let me explain how I know you’re wrong…”-Me
Just seems boring.
I would guess your opinion is that I am now a member of “delusional people.”
Back in the 1960’s and '70’s it was very common for people to unsolicitedly share their faith with others. Maybe that is uncommon these days. Back then there were very few who didn’t believe in a Creator.
That was not near the case.
No. But an atheist would have to look at believers as delusional people, and you said you were an atheist.
And yes, I was… until I wasn’t.
Sure they do. But the discussion was much more involved than an “either/or” argument, where the discussion goes, “It’s green”, “no it’s red”, “nope, green”, nay, red…"
The same drivers that cause conversations around any current event/social practice. Especially when it’s casually inserted in to conversations as a universal North Star of sorts.
I believe the more famous individuals who are atheists, like Richard Dawkins, have moved away from those debates. I don’t think they want to be known only as “those atheist guys” and also what’s the point?
When we are talking about policies that affect everyone, and one side’s position is based on “well, God said so so,” then it is an issue. If your position is based on logic, reason and facts and the other side is based on an irrational belief, i.e., faith, then I would say it is a fair question to ask, “why should my life be impacted by your irrational belief?” So whether or not God is real is not the issue but should religious belief which is by definition irrational, be what guides all of us, even those who don’t believe. Should non believers be bound by someone else’s invisible sky king?
And the above opinion is not something that only an atheist could have. A believer could feel the same way about how his belief should or should not impact others.
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I agree with all of this. And if @RT_Nomad was debating government policy with believers back in his atheist days, I can understand debating.
I find any debate that is about atheism vs belief, cringe inducing. If you are a believer, you should feel zero need to debate the existence of God. The same for an atheist.