Delts Really Lagging

Training
61

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

Read that for Joe DeFranco’s opinion on why he doesn’t include OHP. Also, on his sight, he suggests a way to incorporate OHP if you really feel it necessary in WS4SB.

It says IN THE PROGRAM that it is not for ‘physique geeks’, explaining his routine is about performance, athleticism, and injury prevention. So saying it’s not a BB’ing routine is accurate. Saying it’s NOT a good program is foolish, seeing the success of a lot of DeFranco’s clients. [/quote]

he recommends the clean and press using dumbbells right here:

[quote]When: Perform after regular chest and back work

Rest: None between exercises

Reps: 8-12 per movement

Sets: 2-3 total

  1. Seated Plate Raise using a 25 or 45-pound weight plate

  2. Seated Lateral Raise with light dumbbells â?? 20 to 25 pounds

  3. Seated Clean and Press, strict form, using the same dumbbells. That’s a shrug, an external rotation, and half-press.[/quote]

so why would people say he avoids all pressing movements?

I read most of that and agree that the shoulder is likely the greatest risk for injury next to knees. That is why I have always been against true BTN presses unless only taken to about ear level or above.

However, to leave it out completely makes no sense for most athletes with a job of running into people and pushing them off. That is why the clean and press is a regular in most college football gyms.

62

I also usually stick with machines for overhead presses lately because of my injuries and the risk…and yes, you can still do overhead presses that way with minimal risk of injury. It takes the bar out of the equation which is the main reason for awkward handling of the weight during OHP.

Past that, in bodybuilding, if you want big round shoulders, there had better be some pressing going on…and any bodybuilder who knows anything is aware that there is a risk and trains to avoid it.

63

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

Read that for Joe DeFranco’s opinion on why he doesn’t include OHP. Also, on his sight, he suggests a way to incorporate OHP if you really feel it necessary in WS4SB.

It says IN THE PROGRAM that it is not for ‘physique geeks’, explaining his routine is about performance, athleticism, and injury prevention. So saying it’s not a BB’ing routine is accurate. Saying it’s NOT a good program is foolish, seeing the success of a lot of DeFranco’s clients. [/quote]

he recommends the clean and press using dumbbells right here:

[quote]When: Perform after regular chest and back work

Rest: None between exercises

Reps: 8-12 per movement

Sets: 2-3 total

  1. Seated Plate Raise using a 25 or 45-pound weight plate

  2. Seated Lateral Raise with light dumbbells â?? 20 to 25 pounds

  3. Seated Clean and Press, strict form, using the same dumbbells. That’s a shrug, an external rotation, and half-press.[/quote]

so why would people say he avoids all pressing movements?

I read most of that and agree that the shoulder is likely the greatest risk for injury next to knees. That is why I have always been against true BTN presses unless only taken to about ear level or above.

However, to leave it out completely makes no sense for most athletes with a job of running into people and pushing them off. That is why the clean and press is a regular in most college football gyms.[/quote]

Idk man. I know both my HS and College football teams Clean a lot, but rarely press. But that’s really besides the point. If you’ve never done the Seated Clean and Presses Defranco is prescribing: They are basically a prehab exercise. He has pressing in his program, just no heavy or ‘planned progression’ based OH pressing. He doesn’t neglect shoulders I don’t think, he hits the them once or twice a week with some iso movements to keep them strong and healthy. He just doesn’t prioritize them with his athletes.

I think he just assumes that people who are pitching fastballs, throwing footballs, shooting basketball, etc, are already probably overusing their shoulders, so why risk an injury. Plus, like I said, he says if you want to add in OHP, just add it on max effort upper body day. It’s not like you CAN’T add it in, he just suggests over movements over it.

64

[quote]florelius wrote:
@want2getlean.

X did OHpressing for reps with something like 100kg with CT, when did that become weak?

[/quote]

Not to get into a ‘what is weak and what is not’ pissing contest… but let’s just say that 18 year old kids training at DeFranco’s or other gyms with similar methodologies are putting up MUCH bigger weights than that at half of X’s weight, not to mention insane 40yd dashes, frequently breaking combine records, etc…

To call these programs ‘crap’ is just asinine and myopic.

65

“considering you have 18 year old kids half X’s size strict pressing 30 or 40kg more for clean reps, deadlifting over twice”

link to aforementioned 18 year old repping 140kg shoulder press and deadlifting 300+

Any overhead pressing 2x per week will do wonders,
pick 2 pressing excerses then 2-3 isolation do this twice a week

Professor X, atm what do you do/have done for rear delts

66

[quote]want2getlean wrote:

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
what program would have no direct shoulder work (in the form of heavy pressing) whether its for body building or athletics?

[/quote]

Many strength and conditioning coaches, especially in sports which involve strong frequent explosive shoulder movements like throwing or punching, avoid overhead pressing for the sake of injury prevention.[/quote]

for sake of injury prevention maybe they shouldnt lift or even play?

now for my serious response, wouldn’t you be more prone to injury by not training your shoulders (imbalances)?
reminds me of the real sports segment on the new pitching training that has pitchers using weighted balls but not releasing the ball to develop the posterior delt. Its resulting in pitchers increasing velocity and having less shoulder issues (google Steve Delabar)

67

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ColeTrain wrote:
To Professor X,
In all fairness you can’t call this program retarded, at least you are not doing it justice. Joe Defranco is certainly not retarded and i think his career and results is testament to that. Your failing to see that WS4SB is a performance base workout with the intent to also add some size to athletes. A football player doesn’t need good the perfect body ratio he needs power, strength, a some general size; all which WS4SB is more than capable of doing. You are coming across as if bodybuilding type workouts are the end all be all, but they are not ideal for athletes, they are ideal for bodybuilders. Now grant it the OP did post this in a BODYBUILDING forum and it was referring to a lagging bodypart which would be bodybuilding related so you are not wrong to say that WS4SB is not the optimal if aesthetics(in bodybuilding perspectives) is the goal. My point is that you are wrong to call a program made by a great trainer retarded, give the man some credit. The program is not “retarded” the person doing the program in hope to build a bodybuilders body may be “retarded”.[/quote]

Wait…are you really going to imply that everyone using “WS4SB” is an athlete in organized sports?

really?

Further, why the hell would a routine for a football player AVOID overhead presses?

That makes no logical sense at all…so yeah…crap is what I would call it based on what I’ve seen in this thread.

Show me the muscle.[/quote]

This just in, PX is better than Defranco at training football players

Dude, you are a fucking dentist (doctor?) while Defranco is one of the best trainer for athlete/football players

Maybe ill go and ask Defranco if I have a problem with my tooth

68

its funny that the bodybuilding forum consistantly debates bbing routines versus non split routines… almost as funny as the RAW vs Gear in the pl section

69

[quote]bignate wrote:
its funny that the bodybuilding forum consistantly debates bbing routines versus non split routines… almost as funny as the RAW vs Gear in the pl section[/quote]

It isn’t funny, it’s retarded. If we can’t discuss BODYBUILDING in the bodybuilding forum without people acting like ignoring body parts is a great idea, it just shows some here like to fuss for no reason.

Taking care of your shoulder joint is a must for any serious lifter…but avoiding overhead presses of all kinds makes no sense to a bodybuilder.

70

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ColeTrain wrote:
To Professor X,
In all fairness you can’t call this program retarded, at least you are not doing it justice. Joe Defranco is certainly not retarded and i think his career and results is testament to that. Your failing to see that WS4SB is a performance base workout with the intent to also add some size to athletes. A football player doesn’t need good the perfect body ratio he needs power, strength, a some general size; all which WS4SB is more than capable of doing. You are coming across as if bodybuilding type workouts are the end all be all, but they are not ideal for athletes, they are ideal for bodybuilders. Now grant it the OP did post this in a BODYBUILDING forum and it was referring to a lagging bodypart which would be bodybuilding related so you are not wrong to say that WS4SB is not the optimal if aesthetics(in bodybuilding perspectives) is the goal. My point is that you are wrong to call a program made by a great trainer retarded, give the man some credit. The program is not “retarded” the person doing the program in hope to build a bodybuilders body may be “retarded”.[/quote]

Wait…are you really going to imply that everyone using “WS4SB” is an athlete in organized sports?

really?

Further, why the hell would a routine for a football player AVOID overhead presses?

That makes no logical sense at all…so yeah…crap is what I would call it based on what I’ve seen in this thread.

Show me the muscle.[/quote]

First off no i’m not implying that, what i am implying is that the program is designed to develop athletic qualities (i.e. to look and perform like an athlete NOT a bodybuilder). And yeah the OHP is not really necessary for all athletes, in fact i have seen plenty of athletes who don’t do them and have no problem kicking ass on the field.

But if you look at football most of the movement pattern is on a horizontal plane, or just using legs. Like i said i’m not knocking the OHP, i personally love it…however, a program can still be very effective without them and just cause it doesn’t emphasize the OHP doesn’t mean its crap.

Also if you looked into the program more closely he doesn’t completely throw out OHP, its just that he doesn’t really place any emphasis on them. So next time do a little more research on who you are insulting, Defranco has certainly done more for athletes and lifters than you have

71

Back in my day, trollin’ meant something.

Massive LOL at calling WS4SB retatded

PX surely you’re just trolling and can’t actually think WS4SB a bad program. Leave your BBer paradigm for a second and think overall training economy for an athlete. Bench pressing is going to be more important than overhead pressing for football players especially when almost all football fitness testing has the bench press as one of those tests.

Prioritizing: What the fuck doe that mean!?

72

[quote]detazathoth wrote:
Prioritizing: What the fuck doe that mean!?[/quote]

Not really sure if SRS…

73

[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
Just do military press on repetition day instead of a bench/press up variation[/quote]

Oh, and this is best answer to your question OP

74

[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:

[quote]detazathoth wrote:
Prioritizing: What the fuck doe that mean!?[/quote]

Not really sure if SRS…[/quote]

Sarcasm

live.learn.laugh.<3<3<3

75

[quote]detazathoth wrote:

[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:

[quote]detazathoth wrote:
Prioritizing: What the fuck doe that mean!?[/quote]

Not really sure if SRS…[/quote]

Sarcasm

live.learn.laugh.<3<3<3[/quote]

that’s what I was guessing, didn’t want to assume though seeing as the rest of your post was talking real ass shit lol

76

People keep arguing the merits of exercise selection. The reason an athlete would lift is to become stronger in the general sense. Therefore military press or any vertical pressing would be valuable. No exercise in the gym is technically functional on the football field. There is never a point in football where you have 315 on you back and you move up and down.

77

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
People keep arguing the merits of exercise selection. The reason an athlete would lift is to become stronger in the general sense. Therefore military press or any vertical pressing would be valuable. No exercise in the gym is technically functional on the football field. There is never a point in football where you have 315 on you back and you move up and down.

[/quote]

Have you not heard of the Bench Press for reps test? Which is why DeFranco even has two Bench Press days in his template in the first place.

Surely you can’t be srs

78

[quote]detazathoth wrote:

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
People keep arguing the merits of exercise selection. The reason an athlete would lift is to become stronger in the general sense. Therefore military press or any vertical pressing would be valuable. No exercise in the gym is technically functional on the football field. There is never a point in football where you have 315 on you back and you move up and down.

[/quote]

Have you not heard of the Bench Press for reps test? Which is why DeFranco even has two Bench Press days in his template in the first place.

Surely you can’t be srs[/quote]

yes i have. All it really means is how big of a contract your going to get. Not how good of a football player you are. Ask someone involved with scouting and the combine. Its not an accurate test of football skill nor strength on the field. It is a flawed means of comparison amongst the players. The 9 top performers in the past 9 years at the bench press test are all linemen. According to the bench press test brian urlacher and arian foster and rob gronkowski are marginal football players.

79

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:

[quote]detazathoth wrote:

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
People keep arguing the merits of exercise selection. The reason an athlete would lift is to become stronger in the general sense. Therefore military press or any vertical pressing would be valuable. No exercise in the gym is technically functional on the football field. There is never a point in football where you have 315 on you back and you move up and down.

[/quote]

Have you not heard of the Bench Press for reps test? Which is why DeFranco even has two Bench Press days in his template in the first place.

Surely you can’t be srs[/quote]

yes i have. All it really means is how big of a contract your going to get. Not how good of a football player you are. Ask someone involved with scouting and the combine. Its not an accurate test of football skill nor strength on the field. It is a flawed means of comparison amongst the players. The 9 top performers in the past 9 years at the bench press test are all linemen. According to the bench press test brian urlacher and arian foster and rob gronkowski are marginal football players.
[/quote]

…Hence why it’s there…

Anyway, ignoring your stupid disease. It’s a template, and if the OP wants to work on his delts and stay with the template, I’d swap out the Bench for reps, and that’s where I’d OH Press in its stead.

80

[quote]detazathoth wrote:

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:

[quote]detazathoth wrote:

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
People keep arguing the merits of exercise selection. The reason an athlete would lift is to become stronger in the general sense. Therefore military press or any vertical pressing would be valuable. No exercise in the gym is technically functional on the football field. There is never a point in football where you have 315 on you back and you move up and down.

[/quote]

Have you not heard of the Bench Press for reps test? Which is why DeFranco even has two Bench Press days in his template in the first place.

Surely you can’t be srs[/quote]

yes i have. All it really means is how big of a contract your going to get. Not how good of a football player you are. Ask someone involved with scouting and the combine. Its not an accurate test of football skill nor strength on the field. It is a flawed means of comparison amongst the players. The 9 top performers in the past 9 years at the bench press test are all linemen. According to the bench press test brian urlacher and arian foster and rob gronkowski are marginal football players.
[/quote]

…Hence why it’s there…

Anyway, ignoring your stupid disease. It’s a template, and if the OP wants to work on his delts and stay with the template, I’d swap out the Bench for reps, and that’s where I’d OH Press in its stead.

[/quote]

well you stick to your template. Let me know when you become a professional athlete…