[quote]JoeyMicas11 wrote:
Thanks for the info. Makes sense. However in ws4sb I am not doing any overhead press movements. The only one that comes a little close is a low incline db press which is obv nowhere near where I should be. Lol. So I’m going to look into a muscle group per day and post a workout. But I will definitely add in your suggestion. Thanks [/quote]
Interesting. Shows how familiar I am with WS4SB lol. The addition of some vertical pressing moves will probably do you some good anyway. Are you trying to keep to 4 workouts a week?[/quote]
Dude…why the hell would anyone focused on how they look avoid overhead presses…the virtual key to big delts?
These brand name routines are retarded from what I can see in this thread if ignoring things that important is now in style.
If you want to look good. train like the thousands of people who trained like bodybuilders to pull that off. They got strong as hell at the same time.[/quote]
Honestly, I was pretty surprised by the lack of vertical pressing in WS4SB based on the fact that it’s mentioned frequently as a reputable program.
I mean, I can see a program that leans on incline/flat bench for anterior delts and incorporates a lot of vertical pulling and isolation moves for side/rear delts and traps working pretty well, but I agree the program posted above is light on shoulder work.
[quote]JoeyMicas11 wrote:
And big Mac, I would actually like to make a workout consisting of 5-6 days. I feel my body works well with 3500 calories and more volume. However with 5-6 day programs usually comes an arm day and when training bis and tris together it hinders my progress. Atleast that’s what I feel. [/quote]
That sounds like a solid plan. You can always include biceps with back and triceps with chest if you think that training bi’s/tri’s on the same day limits progress. You’ve got options, but 5-6 days will definitely be more comfortable for running a bodypart split. I’ll check back later and see what you come up with.
[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
Just do military press on repetition day instead of a bench/press up variation[/quote]
…but what happens after he leaves his side and rear delts behind?
I don’t understand. Why train FOR imbalances?[/quote]
well,PX the OP is from a beginner,
don’t you think that is better for him to become stronger/bigger on MP,side laterals and rows?
(in plain english= front delts,medial,traps-upper back-lats-rear delts)
I remember to have read in this very respectable forum " first add mass,than the details"(or something like this)
am i wrong?
[/quote]
I think so. Why wouldn’t you do exercises that are effective just because you are a beginner? Definitely want focus on progression for the main movements but theres no reason to ignore effective isolation movements, especially for a laggin part.
[/quote]
there is a misunderstanding,probably because of my english knowledge…
I mean ; “start with a vertical press then side laterals then rear”,
i’m not saying to ignore any isolations I’m just saying ; develop round delts than WHEN YOUR DELTS BECOME DECENT hit the lagging part first.
very imo, saying to abeginner to start with rear flies instead of MP/behind the neck is useless,just this.
[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
Just do military press on repetition day instead of a bench/press up variation[/quote]
…but what happens after he leaves his side and rear delts behind?
I don’t understand. Why train FOR imbalances?[/quote]
well,PX the OP is from a beginner,
don’t you think that is better for him to become stronger/bigger on MP,side laterals and rows?
(in plain english= front delts,medial,traps-upper back-lats-rear delts)
I remember to have read in this very respectable forum " first add mass,than the details"(or something like this)
am i wrong?
[/quote]
I think so. Why wouldn’t you do exercises that are effective just because you are a beginner? Definitely want focus on progression for the main movements but theres no reason to ignore effective isolation movements, especially for a laggin part.
[/quote]
there is a misunderstanding,probably because of my english knowledge…
I mean ; “start with a vertical press then side laterals then rear”,
i’m not saying to ignore any isolations I’m just saying ; develop round delts than WHEN YOUR DELTS BECOME DECENT hit the lagging part first.
very imo, saying to abeginner to start with rear flies instead of MP/behind the neck is useless,just this.[/quote]
if i understand you right i disagree
starting with a rear move at the very least warming up with one can save your rotator cuffs in the long run
thats why a very high amount people over 40 that ive come accross cant OHP anymore
To Professor X,
In all fairness you can’t call this program retarded, at least you are not doing it justice. Joe Defranco is certainly not retarded and i think his career and results is testament to that. Your failing to see that WS4SB is a performance base workout with the intent to also add some size to athletes. A football player doesn’t need good the perfect body ratio he needs power, strength, a some general size; all which WS4SB is more than capable of doing. You are coming across as if bodybuilding type workouts are the end all be all, but they are not ideal for athletes, they are ideal for bodybuilders. Now grant it the OP did post this in a BODYBUILDING forum and it was referring to a lagging bodypart which would be bodybuilding related so you are not wrong to say that WS4SB is not the optimal if aesthetics(in bodybuilding perspectives) is the goal. My point is that you are wrong to call a program made by a great trainer retarded, give the man some credit. The program is not “retarded” the person doing the program in hope to build a bodybuilders body may be “retarded”.
[quote]ColeTrain wrote:
To Professor X,
In all fairness you can’t call this program retarded, at least you are not doing it justice. Joe Defranco is certainly not retarded and i think his career and results is testament to that. Your failing to see that WS4SB is a performance base workout with the intent to also add some size to athletes. A football player doesn’t need good the perfect body ratio he needs power, strength, a some general size; all which WS4SB is more than capable of doing. You are coming across as if bodybuilding type workouts are the end all be all, but they are not ideal for athletes, they are ideal for bodybuilders. Now grant it the OP did post this in a BODYBUILDING forum and it was referring to a lagging bodypart which would be bodybuilding related so you are not wrong to say that WS4SB is not the optimal if aesthetics(in bodybuilding perspectives) is the goal. My point is that you are wrong to call a program made by a great trainer retarded, give the man some credit. The program is not “retarded” the person doing the program in hope to build a bodybuilders body may be “retarded”.[/quote]
[quote]ColeTrain wrote:
To Professor X,
In all fairness you can’t call this program retarded, at least you are not doing it justice. Joe Defranco is certainly not retarded and i think his career and results is testament to that. Your failing to see that WS4SB is a performance base workout with the intent to also add some size to athletes. A football player doesn’t need good the perfect body ratio he needs power, strength, a some general size; all which WS4SB is more than capable of doing. You are coming across as if bodybuilding type workouts are the end all be all, but they are not ideal for athletes, they are ideal for bodybuilders. Now grant it the OP did post this in a BODYBUILDING forum and it was referring to a lagging bodypart which would be bodybuilding related so you are not wrong to say that WS4SB is not the optimal if aesthetics(in bodybuilding perspectives) is the goal. My point is that you are wrong to call a program made by a great trainer retarded, give the man some credit. The program is not “retarded” the person doing the program in hope to build a bodybuilders body may be “retarded”.[/quote]
From a sports performance standpoint it is retarded to not have some form of heavy vertical pressing.
Last time I checked, using your football example, clean/press and bb military presses are a staple in the weight room.
[quote]ColeTrain wrote:
To Professor X,
In all fairness you can’t call this program retarded, at least you are not doing it justice. Joe Defranco is certainly not retarded and i think his career and results is testament to that. Your failing to see that WS4SB is a performance base workout with the intent to also add some size to athletes. A football player doesn’t need good the perfect body ratio he needs power, strength, a some general size; all which WS4SB is more than capable of doing. You are coming across as if bodybuilding type workouts are the end all be all, but they are not ideal for athletes, they are ideal for bodybuilders. Now grant it the OP did post this in a BODYBUILDING forum and it was referring to a lagging bodypart which would be bodybuilding related so you are not wrong to say that WS4SB is not the optimal if aesthetics(in bodybuilding perspectives) is the goal. My point is that you are wrong to call a program made by a great trainer retarded, give the man some credit. The program is not “retarded” the person doing the program in hope to build a bodybuilders body may be “retarded”.[/quote]
Wait…are you really going to imply that everyone using “WS4SB” is an athlete in organized sports?
really?
Further, why the hell would a routine for a football player AVOID overhead presses?
That makes no logical sense at all…so yeah…crap is what I would call it based on what I’ve seen in this thread.
Yes Cole I was doing this workout in hopes of playing football. But while running it I have gained weight and gotten bigger even though the intent of the program is to increase strength. However, my shoulders have not gained mass so I figured I could possibly add in more shoulder movements to make up for this, or pre exhaust them. Now that I know I am not going to play football, at least till summer and 2 a days, I think I would like to switch it up to a new split.
What would you guys think about this:
Monday: Chest, Tris
Incline Dumbbell 3x6-10
Flat Barbell Bench 3x8-10
Decline Barbell Bench 3x10-12 (havent done decline in about a year, I hear its terrible and I hear its good, so maybe Ill throw it in.)
Pec Deck Fly Machine 2x12-15
Close Grip Bench Press or Skull Crushers 3x6-10
Rope Pushdowns 3x8-12
Abs
Tuesday: Back, Bis, Calves
Barbell Rows 3x6-10
Lat Pulldowns 4x8-12 or Straight Arm Pulldowns not sure
Close grip seated rows 3x8-12
Reverse Flys 3x8-12
Hammer Curls 3x10-12
Preacher Curls 3x10-12
Seated Calf Press 4x-10-15
Wed: Rest
Thurs: Shoulders, Traps
Standing shoulder Barbell Press 3x6-8
Dumbbell Military 3x8-12
Lateral Or L Raises 4x10-15 ( Not sure here, Would let to have huge lateral deltoids or atleast some lateral… At the moment from front view, my arms still out to my side further than my delts lol)
Rear deltoid flys on incline 3x8-12
Upright Rows 4x10-12
Rack shrugs 4x6-10
Friday: Rest
Saturday: Legs, Lower Back, Forearms
Squats 3x6-8
Deadlifts 3x8-10 ( I dont know if much people do both deads and squats together, but I want both of them incorporated?)
Leg Press 3x8-10
Leg extensions 3x10-12
Leg Curls 3x10-12
Standing Calve Raises 4x8-12
Back extensions 2x10-15
Wrist Rollers 2x2-3
This is 4 days. I would like to do 5 days not sure how without making a separate arm day which I dont want to do. Advice guys? Just made this quickly in between classes!
[quote]ColeTrain wrote:
To Professor X,
In all fairness you can’t call this program retarded, at least you are not doing it justice. Joe Defranco is certainly not retarded and i think his career and results is testament to that. Your failing to see that WS4SB is a performance base workout with the intent to also add some size to athletes. A football player doesn’t need good the perfect body ratio he needs power, strength, a some general size; all which WS4SB is more than capable of doing. You are coming across as if bodybuilding type workouts are the end all be all, but they are not ideal for athletes, they are ideal for bodybuilders. Now grant it the OP did post this in a BODYBUILDING forum and it was referring to a lagging bodypart which would be bodybuilding related so you are not wrong to say that WS4SB is not the optimal if aesthetics(in bodybuilding perspectives) is the goal. My point is that you are wrong to call a program made by a great trainer retarded, give the man some credit. The program is not “retarded” the person doing the program in hope to build a bodybuilders body may be “retarded”.[/quote]
Wait…are you really going to imply that everyone using “WS4SB” is an athlete in organized sports?
really?
Further, why the hell would a routine for a football player AVOID overhead presses?
That makes no logical sense at all…so yeah…crap is what I would call it based on what I’ve seen in this thread.
Show me the muscle.[/quote]
same problem as those whinging about Starting Strength. Its misapplication of programs not the programs themselves. They do what they are designed to do. If you want to be a bodybuilder dont piss around trying to make people think you want to be a pro footballer when you grow up. Just start training like a bodybuilder.
Donny Thompson didnt put 1300 lbs on his back and squat it back up by following a 6 day split with 40 sets of shoulder work to make his delt pop out to compliment his teardrop. neither did Branch Warren get swole while enjoying evening seminars with Louie Simmons on box squats carryover.
want big delts? train like 99% of the bodybuilders did the last 50 years. split and destroy.
world class sprinters can run 100 meters in less than 10 seconds because they trained like a sprinter. they are not 300 pound behemoths with 22" arms.
IMO sport specific programs are useless for pure looks-bodybuilding.
[quote]ColeTrain wrote:
To Professor X,
In all fairness you can’t call this program retarded, at least you are not doing it justice. Joe Defranco is certainly not retarded and i think his career and results is testament to that. Your failing to see that WS4SB is a performance base workout with the intent to also add some size to athletes. A football player doesn’t need good the perfect body ratio he needs power, strength, a some general size; all which WS4SB is more than capable of doing. You are coming across as if bodybuilding type workouts are the end all be all, but they are not ideal for athletes, they are ideal for bodybuilders. Now grant it the OP did post this in a BODYBUILDING forum and it was referring to a lagging bodypart which would be bodybuilding related so you are not wrong to say that WS4SB is not the optimal if aesthetics(in bodybuilding perspectives) is the goal. My point is that you are wrong to call a program made by a great trainer retarded, give the man some credit. The program is not “retarded” the person doing the program in hope to build a bodybuilders body may be “retarded”.[/quote]
Wait…are you really going to imply that everyone using “WS4SB” is an athlete in organized sports?
really?
Further, why the hell would a routine for a football player AVOID overhead presses?
That makes no logical sense at all…so yeah…crap is what I would call it based on what I’ve seen in this thread.
Show me the muscle.[/quote]
DeFranco has quite a few successful NFL clients, so they obviously buy into what he’s saying. Looking at it strictly from an athletics perspective, why would a football player need to OH press? It isn’t specific to any movements he does, so there’s no reason to make it a big part of a training program for the hypothetical player. Incline pressing, maybe, but why risk the shoulders more than is necessary?
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
what program would have no direct shoulder work (in the form of heavy pressing) whether its for body building or athletics?
[/quote]
Many strength and conditioning coaches, especially in sports which involve strong frequent explosive shoulder movements like throwing or punching, avoid overhead pressing for the sake of injury prevention.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Further, why the hell would a routine for a football player AVOID overhead presses?
That makes no logical sense at all…so yeah…crap is what I would call it based on what I’ve seen in this thread.
Show me the muscle.[/quote]
Injury prevention.
Regarding DeFranco’s programs being ‘crap’… DeFranco is one of the top strength and conditioning coaches out there today, and most of his trainees do great when they turn Pro.
On the other hand, we’ve seen how unathletic and weak you are in the videos with CT.
You have huge shoulders, but I’ll take DeFranco’s advice on athleticism over yours any day.
And before you respond ‘Well this thread is about bodybuilding’; yes, it is. WS4SB is a routine for athletes and not ideal for bodybuilders.
What you wrote however, is that the routine is ‘crap’, not ‘crap for bodybuilding’ or ‘crap for huge shoulders’.
[quote]JoeyMicas11 wrote:
every football team I have played for we have done oh pressing. Typically clean and press or clean and jerk or military. Ive done them all with a team[/quote]
It was like that in college also. I have not heard of many avoiding all direct shoulder work. I mean, at least throw a clean and press in.
[quote]JoeyMicas11 wrote:
every football team I have played for we have done oh pressing. Typically clean and press or clean and jerk or military. Ive done them all with a team[/quote]
It was like that in college also. I have not heard of many avoiding all direct shoulder work. I mean, at least throw a clean and press in.[/quote]
It was typically clean and press at my college last year also. How’s the program look? Crap? Lol
Read that for Joe DeFranco’s opinion on why he doesn’t include OHP. Also, on his sight, he suggests a way to incorporate OHP if you really feel it necessary in WS4SB.
It says IN THE PROGRAM that it is not for ‘physique geeks’, explaining his routine is about performance, athleticism, and injury prevention. So saying it’s not a BB’ing routine is accurate. Saying it’s NOT a good program is foolish, seeing the success of a lot of DeFranco’s clients.