What is exactly is meant by failure? I hear to avoid it but what does that mean? If I am on rep 5 of 6 and think I might not get the next, I should just stop at 5??? That seems to make no sense after just reading the eccecntric article.
I could really use some explination here.
Todd
Momentary failure of the concentric portion of the rep WHILE MAINTAINING GOOD FORM. Every word in that sentence is important, especially the ones in caps. A military press that turns into a push press doesn’t count. Curls that become a mutant hang clean, etc. You get the drift.
TNT
[quote]Todd S. wrote:
What is exactly is meant by failure? I hear to avoid it but what does that mean? If I am on rep 5 of 6 and think I might not get the next, I should just stop at 5??? That seems to make no sense after just reading the eccecntric article.
I could really use some explination here.
Todd[/quote]
Well, depending on who you are reading, “failure” is technical breakdown.
The moment a repetition is not perfomed exactly the same way the first rep(same groove, same tempo) was performed, you have “failed”. You have failed because you are no longer engaging your body(nervous system, motor units, lots of other stuff) in the same way, so you are not training the quality (muscle,movement,whatever) you set out to train with the set.
At least, that’s my understanding, but I may be making it to narrow.
Or, there is “momentary failure” which is the point that no matter what you do with your body to cheat etc…, you can’t complete the rep. It has been pretty much agreed upon, as far as I can tell, that this type of training is something to be used very sparingly(or never) simply because it fries you so badly.
The better strategy is to stop before you fail as it easier for your body to recover from the training session.
We get better out of the gym when we are recovering, the easier it is to recover, the sooner we can train again, and so on…
todd, you bring up a good point.
Training to failure on every set is not a wise idea. The concept of training to failure on some sets, on some exercises and at specific times is incorporated into workout routines as a way of recruiting as many muscle fibers as possible. When this happens, your muscles are used and beat up, which leads to growth gains.
But, if you train a specific body part to failure consistently on every set(if you go to the gym and do incline, deeline, and flat bench press), eventually, your muscles will be over damaged, and at that point you might even be hurting your growth gains instead of helping.
Training to failure for your whole body is also not recommended, but for different reasons. If you tax your nervous system too much by lifting too hard, and more commonly, too often, you prevent your nervous system from recovering, which prevents strength gains and may leave you feeling tired and a number of other symptons.
But, training to failure is good, as long as you do it right and you don’t over do it.
I don’t know if I understand better or am more confused… Thanks for the replies…
I have always use a pyrmid setup… I would be near failure on all the sets. I am thinking of trying Chad’s 10x3 and 4x6 work out. So for this I should pick a weight I can do fairly easily for the first group of set? Then struggle slightly on the last set?
Next… Isn’t doing eccentric workouts in excess of your 1RM, in effect lifting beyond failure?? It would seem that the two go against each other.
Sorry for all the questions but this site is just blowing my mind. Hopefully it will help me blow my muscles as well… lol.
Todd
You have some good answers to your question in regard to the concentric portion of a lift. Nine times out of ten if somebody is talking about failure that’s what they mean. But there are a couple of other different kinds.
Examples:
Let’s say that a person is too weak to complete a chin-up so they decide to train that movement eccentrically until they are strong enough to complete some good reps. So on their first workout they are going to complete 4 sets of 5 eccentric reps, that last 4 seconds each. On their third set, they lower themselves to a 4 count for the first 4 reps, but on the fifth despite their best effort they lose control and the eccentric component only lasts 1 second. At that point they have reached eccentric failure.
You could also imagine a similar scenario where someone is doing isometric holds against the pins of a power rack (ala Poliquin) for a prescribed amount of time. If at some point they get too tired and can’t hold the weight against the pins and must lower the weight, they have reached static, or isometric failure.
Those two methods of training don’t apply much to most peoples programs, nor should they, but I thought I’d throw them in.
A 40 year-old man who still lives with his parents.
[quote]Todd S. wrote:
I don’t know if I understand better or am more confused… Thanks for the replies…
I have always use a pyrmid setup… I would be near failure on all the sets. I am thinking of trying Chad’s 10x3 and 4x6 work out. So for this I should pick a weight I can do fairly easily for the first group of set? Then struggle slightly on the last set?
Next… Isn’t doing eccentric workouts in excess of your 1RM, in effect lifting beyond failure?? It would seem that the two go against each other.
Sorry for all the questions but this site is just blowing my mind. Hopefully it will help me blow my muscles as well… lol.
Todd[/quote]
Hi todd.
this is a good point to raise, and failiur means slightly different things to some people. In general, it is a loss of form. I like to think of it as "ooo err, i am about to loose form i.e. drop the bar on my head. when i am aware of this, i stop.
I imagine it to be an “energy bar” from a beat em up. if i finish a round with a bit left over, it moves onto the next round, resulting in more quality reps (safe reps) at a higher load. this means mor work done overall.
There is another thread that talks about 10x3 or 8 x 5. Charles Staleys articles could also be a good place to look for routine ideas. T-dawg training also looks into this.
Be aware, you may not get the same kind f pump you get with all “faliure” pyramid, but it is different, challenging and on the whole a better way (more efficient) way to train, and will avoid over training.
WRT eccentric training, it is not “in effect” training to failiur. if you failed with - only training you will have a very big dent in your head. the guiding principle continues to be loss of form.
Ill give 1 example.
bench. have you ever seen anyone do the “Crazy legs” when benching. their spotter is holding the weight and they are squirming everywhere! that is definately a loss of form. their body has lost position, and if they were training alone, no way could they do it.
It is at this point the lift is unsafe.
If you want more info on leeping the body tight look at pavels stuff, with “power breathing”. its a technique i sometimes use and it certainly helps.
lots here, but take your time and read it through.
hope this helps.
[quote]dcb wrote:
You have some good answers to your question in regard to the concentric portion of a lift. Nine times out of ten if somebody is talking about failure that’s what they mean. But there are a couple of other different kinds.
Examples:
Let’s say that a person is too weak to complete a chin-up so they decide to train that movement eccentrically until they are strong enough to complete some good reps. So on their first workout they are going to complete 4 sets of 5 eccentric reps, that last 4 seconds each. On their third set, they lower themselves to a 4 count for the first 4 reps, but on the fifth despite their best effort they lose control and the eccentric component only lasts 1 second. At that point they have reached eccentric failure.
You could also imagine a similar scenario where someone is doing isometric holds against the pins of a power rack (ala Poliquin) for a prescribed amount of time. If at some point they get too tired and can’t hold the weight against the pins and must lower the weight, they have reached static, or isometric failure.
Those two methods of training don’t apply much to most peoples programs, nor should they, but I thought I’d throw them in. [/quote]
Nice post dude, I totally neglected even thinking about that…
thanks!
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
A 40 year-old man who still lives with his parents.[/quote]
!!!lol.
does he get to use the geo!?
There are lots of subjective definitions of failure. But what I assume someone is referring to when they talk about ‘failure’ is simply the state of putting forth all their effort to grind out another repetition and being physically unable to do so.
I think it is important to distinguish this kind of failure from all the other kinds of failure, because it has a bigger impact on the CNS. If your hips rise prematurely while you are doing a heavy back squat, but you still complete the lift, that repetition alone doesn’t have a severe impact on the CNS, unless you injured yourself with your body english. But if you take the weight to the bottom, try to squat it up and spend three seconds trying to push past a sticking point at parallel without making it - that’ll fry your CNS seven ways to Sunday.
Thanks for all the replies… This is beginning to make more sense to me now. This is pretty much the opposite of what I have done in the past. I’m going to try to work my plan around NOT going to failure and see how it goes.
Thanks.
If your back squat form deteriorates and becomes a mutant squat/good morning/whatever…yes you moved the weight, but the muscles that were originally being used to do the “good form” squat have failed in the concentric protion and you are now doing another exercise using different muscles in a different arrangement. Just keep strict form and maybe only go to failure on the last set. Comeback the next day strong and fully tanked up for another go.
Plot it over a week or more and you will see that working to failure too often will decrease you output over the long term.
Great topic.
TNT
[quote]Todd S. wrote:
Thanks for all the replies… This is beginning to make more sense to me now. This is pretty much the opposite of what I have done in the past. I’m going to try to work my plan around NOT going to failure and see how it goes.
Thanks.[/quote]
Good idea, because I would define REAL failure as tearing the muscle off the bone! Thats why training to true failure is not good, and closeness of a set to causing injury is not related to positive results, however, you might not be able to complete a rep of say 1-arm tricep extensions, and yet not be pushing the muscle near its momentary force producing potential because a muscle is NEVER maximally excited during isolation open chain (single joint) movements.
good point mertdawg. of course now it means you have to apply all those different types of failure differently to all the different parts of the body, in questing for the same result. i said different too much. : )
this really does go against everything I have ever heard as well. I am in the same boat as Todd. I have heard you don’t get stronger unless you push your self. I was always told to try to push that last one out 8 times out of 10 you either break form or just fail completely. But there are times you can push it out, how do you make the decision to try to push or not. If you start to lay of then don’t you think you will lose that edge that really pushes you to bang that last rep out???
I am not saying what you guys are saying is wronge it makes sense but I think you are kind of killing that mental toughness that keeps you going you know what I mean
[quote]whit09 wrote:
this really does go against everything I have ever heard as well. I am in the same boat as Todd. I have heard you don’t get stronger unless you push your self. I was always told to try to push that last one out 8 times out of 10 you either break form or just fail completely. But there are times you can push it out, how do you make the decision to try to push or not. If you start to lay of then don’t you think you will lose that edge that really pushes you to bang that last rep out???
I am not saying what you guys are saying is wronge it makes sense but I think you are kind of killing that mental toughness that keeps you going you know what I mean
[/quote]
Then maybe everything you’ve been told and read is wrong 
Seriously, no one is advocating not training hard, tough, brutally, or whatever.
The point is, you can train very hard without ever forcing out the last rep in such a way that it was not performed with the same quality as the first repetition. Or worse, having some help you, or having form breakdown.
Read the archives, you will find virtually no references that looks at training to failure in a positive way AFAIK, especially in the context of being done in every training session.
Certainly, it is a tool in the box that can be used, but not something to be done chronically.
Lastly, don’t confuse “forcing out just 1 more rep” with training intensity, it’s not the same thing, unless of course you are going for a 1 rep max…then it is exactly what it means 
Just my opinion, I could be wrong as I often am…
-Sean
[quote]whit09 wrote:
this really does go against everything I have ever heard as well. I am in the same boat as Todd. I have heard you don’t get stronger unless you push your self. I was always told to try to push that last one out 8 times out of 10 you either break form or just fail completely. But there are times you can push it out, how do you make the decision to try to push or not. If you start to lay of then don’t you think you will lose that edge that really pushes you to bang that last rep out???
I am not saying what you guys are saying is wronge it makes sense but I think you are kind of killing that mental toughness that keeps you going you know what I mean
[/quote]
At one point I got stuck on 255 for 6 reps in the bench for several weeks. I switched to 5 x 3 with 255 and added 5 pounds a week all the way up to 295 (in just 8 weeks) then hit 295 for 6. When I got stuck on 295 x 5 x 3, I started using 4 doubled #1 bands and worked up adding 5 pounds a week from 205 x 5 x 3 to 265 x 5 x 3 and was able to do 335 x 6 again in 10 weeks. Doing one set to “failure” didn’t work but 5 x 3 at about a 6 rep max added 80 pounds to my 6 rep max in only 18 weeks of training.
Merth that sounds awesome… Can I ask what you mean by the #1 band?
I appreciate all the comments and it is making more sence now…
Thanks everyone.
[quote]Todd S. wrote:
Merth that sounds awesome… Can I ask what you mean by the #1 band?
I appreciate all the comments and it is making more sence now…
Thanks everyone. [/quote]
The number 1s would be the smallest either Jumpstretch or Iron Woody’s band also called minis. The Iron Woody’s #1s are not dyed (they are white)