Decent Squat Numbers for Sprinters

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[quote]SquatDr wrote:
Nick Radonjic wrote:
davan wrote:
He was also on steroids. Not taking anything away from him, though, because it’s still impressive.

If you don’t want to take anything away, then why mention it? We all know what the elite guys are on.

To the original poster: where did you hear those numbers? None of them sound right at all. The most BJ ever lifted according to his coach is 2 sets of 6 reps at 600lbs to parallel (what the other guy said, but he did it for 2 sets).

Maurice Greene squatted a bit over 500lbs and Linford Christie supposedly did circa-700lbs.

From what I’ve heard from someone who watched Gatlin squatting a couple years ago, he was doing below parallel squats ~6 reps with 385-415.

Let’s assume you’re right that he did 2 x 6 at 600 lbs. What do you think his 1RM would be? Please keep in mind he only weighed 170. Anyway you cut it, it is impressive. I really do not think that steroids really had that much to do with his strength and speed. I also agree with the other poster that virtually all of teh competitors used some form of steroid or another. Ben only got caught.

Nick

ben was a freak, any way you cut, he would have been amazingly fast and strong without steroids, in fact he was fast and strong without them. but to say that steroids really didnt have much to do with his strength and speed is understated, as i think that it really took him to the next level. just my opinion though.
[/quote]

My point only is that his use of steroids did not necessarily give him that much of an advantage. Based on my opinion that most, if not all of the elite sprinters in Seoul that year were on steroids, Ben’s use of them leveled the playing field in that regard. Obviously, I can’t prove that the remaining competitors were on them. I just think that because he won the race, then got caught, he became the ultimate scapegoat.

Nick

22

[quote]Nick Radonjic wrote:
SquatDr wrote:
Nick Radonjic wrote:
davan wrote:
He was also on steroids. Not taking anything away from him, though, because it’s still impressive.

If you don’t want to take anything away, then why mention it? We all know what the elite guys are on.

To the original poster: where did you hear those numbers? None of them sound right at all. The most BJ ever lifted according to his coach is 2 sets of 6 reps at 600lbs to parallel (what the other guy said, but he did it for 2 sets).

Maurice Greene squatted a bit over 500lbs and Linford Christie supposedly did circa-700lbs.

From what I’ve heard from someone who watched Gatlin squatting a couple years ago, he was doing below parallel squats ~6 reps with 385-415.

Let’s assume you’re right that he did 2 x 6 at 600 lbs. What do you think his 1RM would be? Please keep in mind he only weighed 170. Anyway you cut it, it is impressive. I really do not think that steroids really had that much to do with his strength and speed. I also agree with the other poster that virtually all of teh competitors used some form of steroid or another. Ben only got caught.

Nick

ben was a freak, any way you cut, he would have been amazingly fast and strong without steroids, in fact he was fast and strong without them. but to say that steroids really didnt have much to do with his strength and speed is understated, as i think that it really took him to the next level. just my opinion though.

My point only is that his use of steroids did not necessarily give him that much of an advantage. Based on my opinion that most, if not all of the elite sprinters in Seoul that year were on steroids, Ben’s use of them leveled the playing field in that regard. Obviously, I can’t prove that the remaining competitors were on them. I just think that because he won the race, then got caught, he became the ultimate scapegoat.

Nick[/quote]

i agree with you that he was the scapegoat and got caught because he won and that his drug usage didnt matter as much because most likely, the other athletes were using drugs also. i missed your point originally, as i thought you were saying steroids didnt greatly increase his strength to weight ratio, which i feel it did and i think that you agree also? regardless, i know what you are saying though.

23

[quote]Nick Radonjic wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
I thought Ben was a little heavier than 170, but if he was going for a 1RM, it might’ve been close to 4x bodyweight now that I think about it.

I think all athletes, especially high school athletes need to really understand the importance relative strength plays in speed development. Most of them just think more and more running is the answer when it often isn’t.

I totally agree. If you read that entire analysis in the attachment of teh earlier post, you can read that relative strength, as seen in the power clean and squat, are amazingly correlated to sprint speed and vertical jump. I guess when all else fails when your a sprinter, increase your relative strength, and that should make your times go down.

Nick[/quote]

if you are really interested in sprinting/jumping information, try the link to kelly bagget’s site which i posted earlier. it has so much interesting info about the different types of strength and speed and how to train them. for instance, it tells about why two men who have the same exact attributes (lift numbers, height, weight, bf%, etc.) can have drastically different sprint times and vertical jumps. among other things, it has to do with the springiness of the athlete and their reactive strength.

please look it up; it is really informative, yet written in a very easy to read manner.

take care!

24

No offense, but Kelley Baggett’s site? Come on at least send him to charliefrancis.com. I don’t think Kelley ever broke 11 or trained anybody under 11, let alone under 10 like CF has done multiple times.

25

[quote]davan wrote:
No offense, but Kelley Baggett’s site? Come on at least send him to charliefrancis.com. I don’t think Kelley ever broke 11 or trained anybody under 11, let alone under 10 like CF has done multiple times.[/quote]

I am a big charliefrancis.com fan, as i think it is one of the best, if not the best sprint website out there and i post on there every now and then. as for kelley baggetts site, i havent checked it out yet. davan, what are some other good sprint sites that you recommend?

26

[quote]davan wrote:
No offense, but Kelley Baggett’s site? Come on at least send him to charliefrancis.com. I don’t think Kelley ever broke 11 or trained anybody under 11, let alone under 10 like CF has done multiple times.[/quote]

I believe his vert is something in the high 40s from the run.

I can’t quite find the page where he talked about it, but he said his vert in high school was in the low 20s and was even in the teens at one point during his training.

He’s something like 5’8" and there’s a pretty sick pic of him dunking a ball where he’s way over the rim.

He may not be an elite sprinter, but he is an elite jumper and his training information is great. Just because he doesn’t have access to the same quality of athletes that Charlie does (note: not to take away anything from Charlie, his reputation as maybe the best sprint coach ever is deserved, I’m sure), but that doesn’t mean his information is any less credible.

There are two people I constantly refer others (especially high school athletes) to: Joe DeFranco and Kelley Baggett, because they just have an amazing ability to take complex information and present it in a practical way that every athlete can use.

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elitetrack.com is probably the 2nd best and is very high quality itself and better than CF.com in some aspects, in my opinion (like more sample workouts and such and some more information on collegiate athletics).

28

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
davan wrote:
No offense, but Kelley Baggett’s site? Come on at least send him to charliefrancis.com. I don’t think Kelley ever broke 11 or trained anybody under 11, let alone under 10 like CF has done multiple times.

I believe his vert is something in the high 40s from the run.

I can’t quite find the page where he talked about it, but he said his vert in high school was in the low 20s and was even in the teens at one point during his training.

He’s something like 5’8" and there’s a pretty sick pic of him dunking a ball where he’s way over the rim.

He may not be an elite sprinter, but he is an elite jumper and his training information is great. Just because he doesn’t have access to the same quality of athletes that Charlie does (note: not to take away anything from Charlie, his reputation as maybe the best sprint coach ever is deserved, I’m sure), but that doesn’t mean his information is any less credible.

There are two people I constantly refer others (especially high school athletes) to: Joe DeFranco and Kelley Baggett, because they just have an amazing ability to take complex information and present it in a practical way that every athlete can use.[/quote]

I’m a huge fan of Kelly’s. I own the Vertical Jump Development Bible. A great book with some great programs in there for developing one’s vert. I love the tests he uses to determine what type of strength deficiency one has in order to improve their respective vert. I think he’s a very credible source. I also have the utmost respect for Charlie Francis.

That leads me to my next point. Have any of you heard of Luke Lowerey? I get e-mails weekly from Patrick Beith, a quality speed coach. Luke Lowerey was mentioned in one of his e-mails. Luke Lowerey has alleged to have had 9 athletes to have 50+ inch standing verts! However, due to non-disclosure agreements, he can’t state who they are. That’s an awful lot of faith to place in someone selling a product, especially without mentioning the names of the alleged athletes to have done it. The only person that I have ever known with a 50+ inch vertical is Michael Wilson, who played for Memphis as a forward. I think he also was a Harlem Globetrotter, and supposedly dunked on a 12 foot rim! What do you guys think? I’m the first to say that anything over 40 inches is absolutely insane and rare as hell, but 50? I strongly doubt.

Nick

29

i like kelley baggetts stuff a lot too. the vertical development bible is great. i found luke lowery just messin around on the internet and his program is a lot of money but is supposed to have the “secrets” to getting crazy hops.

all i know is i’ve gained and continue to gain inches on my vert from this site, joe defranco’s site and kelley’s book so i dont know what he knows that these guys dont. if anybody has used the program i’d be really interested in what it has in it but am skeptical about the 50 inch vert claims.

30

HUGE fan of Kelly Baggets.

I weigh about 163ish, run a low 4.6 and squat 405. Im 5’7 BTW, built for squatting LOL.

31

[quote]BobDigiNY wrote:
i like kelley baggetts stuff a lot too. the vertical development bible is great. i found luke Lowery just messin around on the internet and his program is a lot of money but is supposed to have the “secrets” to getting crazy hops.

all i know is i’ve gained and continue to gain inches on my vert from this site, joe defranco’s site and kelley’s book so i dont know what he knows that these guys dont. if anybody has used the program i’d be really interested in what it has in it but am skeptical about the 50 inch vert claims. [/quote]

I’m trying out the Westside for Skinny Bastards II now. I like it, and I’m hoping my achilles tendonitis will be kept at bay while I’m on it. I’ve gained inches on my vert through Kelly’s book as well. This Luke Lowerey ‘program/system’ I’m skeptical about also. I’m curious to see who gets on it, and if it is total B.S. like I suspect.

Nick

32

i think that people threw around 40, and in this case 50 inch verticals like they are a dime a dozen. i can count on one hand the number of LEGIT 40 inch verticals that i have seen. even the nfl combines are bullshit with that two arm reach that they use to measure verts. maybe i just havnet seen many good jumpers?

also i am curious to know what is in the vertical jump bible that is so effective as i have never read it, but i have heard a lot about it.

AC

33

[quote]SquatDr wrote:
i think that people threw around 40, and in this case 50 inch verticals like they are a dime a dozen. i can count on one hand the number of LEGIT 40 inch verticals that i have seen. even the nfl combines are bullshit with that two arm reach that they use to measure verts. maybe i just havnet seen many good jumpers?

also i am curious to know what is in the vertical jump bible that is so effective as i have never read it, but i have heard a lot about it.

Primarily that it is so comprehensive. It also has great tests to determine what type of strength deficit you have, and then you apply that type of program to improve that strength quality. The funny thing is, to get back to the original topic of this thread, that unless you can squat 1.5 times bodyweight, don’t consider improving for example reactive strength. It’s just that you are too weak from a limit strength standpoint. These are just a couple of examples. It’s also VERY hands on, and you do not have to get too technical, meaning you can skip a lot of the book to get to the strength tests, and then run with it.

Nick

AC[/quote]

34

nick, jumanji has a thread talkin about Lowery. somethin about a teleconference. it may be interesting to hear what he says about his great program.

35

[quote]BobDigiNY wrote:
nick, jumanji has a thread talkin about Lowery. somethin about a teleconference. it may be interesting to hear what he says about his great program. [/quote]

I’m really curious, but I tend to believe that if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. 9 athletes with 50+ inch standing verts. Come on! He actually guarantees 6 inches on your vert in 60 days. How can people state such things? Like you though, I’m curious.

Nick

36

I don’t reply for a day and look what happens.

Baggett is NOT an elite jumper. The only way you could be an elite jumper is if you did high/long/triple or possibly standing broad jump(s).

Doesn’t get the athletes Charlie Francis does? Now you just spoke out of your ass because all of Charlie’s elite athletes pre-1990 (he’s only had 2 elites since because he’s been black balled). He started up a track club, for kids, and was paid nothing for years. He started training Ben Johnson when he was running mid/high 11’s at age 15 and was his only coach until he ran 9.79.

Baggett should not be mentioned in the same sentence as the likes of CF (and even DeFranco to an extent). CF = multiple world record holders he trained since they were young teens before they were any good. CF himself was top 10 sprinter in the world.

Baggett has produced whom? Baggett is a very GOOD guy and he does know a lot, but I wouldn’t consider anything he says quality on speed as much of his stuff is way too cookie cutter and targeted purely at making money vs generating good discussion.

37

Davan,

I said right in my post that I think Charlie’s reputation as perhaps the best sprint coach ever is deserved. I just said it doesn’t make KB’s info any less credible. The reason a lot of his articles are “cookie-cutter” is because they have to be as they are read by the general public. Same thing with DeFranco’s WS4SB. However, his VJB contains a lot of information on how to optimize and prepare your own training program.

Did I say he’s a BETTER coach than CF? No. Do I think he’s a great coach with great information? Absolutely.

BTW, you don’t consider 40"+ vert elite?

38

You said that KB didn’t get the same quality athletes, implying that is why he does not have the name others do, when in fact many other coaches (like CF) are known because they took nobodies (quite a few actually) and made them into nat’l and world class athletes.

40+" vert is great, but considering that we cannot even get a proper test for vertical and the fact you can cheat up to 5-6" out of the test, it is pretty hard to give the test any credibility. Even the NFL can’t get their testing procedures down, so I would rather look at things that are easily quantifiable that world class athletes actually compete in.

39

[quote]davan wrote:
You said that KB didn’t get the same quality athletes, implying that is why he does not have the name others do, when in fact many other coaches (like CF) are known because they took nobodies (quite a few actually) and made them into nat’l and world class athletes.

40+" vert is great, but considering that we cannot even get a proper test for vertical and the fact you can cheat up to 5-6" out of the test, it is pretty hard to give the test any credibility. Even the NFL can’t get their testing procedures down, so I would rather look at things that are easily quantifiable that world class athletes actually compete in.[/quote]

Davan,

I understand your point(s), but your passion is compelling when it comes to Charlie Francis. I agree with your point regarding how great of a coach Charlie Francis is.

However, with respect to the legitimacy of Kelly Baggett’s 42 inch vertical, please take note. The top of his head measured 42" from the ceiling tiles where he made his jump. His head touched the ceiling when he jumped. That’s about as legitimate a 42" vert as you’ll find. You can’t fake that with a two hand reach.

Nick

40

[quote]davan wrote:
You said that KB didn’t get the same quality athletes, implying that is why he does not have the name others do, when in fact many other coaches (like CF) are known because they took nobodies (quite a few actually) and made them into nat’l and world class athletes.

40+" vert is great, but considering that we cannot even get a proper test for vertical and the fact you can cheat up to 5-6" out of the test, it is pretty hard to give the test any credibility. Even the NFL can’t get their testing procedures down, so I would rather look at things that are easily quantifiable that world class athletes actually compete in.[/quote]

Charlie Francis is like Ronnie these days. If somebody says anything that could be taken as anything but absolute praise, they’re immediately jumped on and burned at the stake by his supporters.

I’ve never said CF wasn’t a great coach or that KB was better. I basically just said that KB had good info, especially for younger (high school) athletes who have to start somewhere to learn.