I don’t bother to read anything CF says about training. Enough of his athletes have been on PFD’s to make it obvious he uses them in his training plans. To me, this means he doesn’t have faith in his own training methods so why should I?
I like Kelly Bagget, however, I do have a big problem with the the claims he has made in advertisments about gains in verticle jump. I can’t remember the specific claims, but anytime someone claims you can increase your vert something like 10 inches in 6 months, they are full of bullshit.
I understand that Kelly’s competitors make such claims so he has to if he wants to sell product. It’s tough to make sales if you say 5 inches in 6 month and your competitor promises 10.
By the way, NOBODY has a 50 inch verticle and hardly anybody has a 40. It’s all bullcrap.
[quote]kellyc wrote:
I don’t bother to read anything CF says about training. Enough of his athletes have been on PFD’s to make it obvious he uses them in his training plans. To me, this means he doesn’t have faith in his own training methods so why should I?[/quote]
I wouldn’t quite go that far. Charlie still has some great info out there and the hi-lo system has been proven to work and implemented by other coaches with success.
[quote]
I like Kelly Bagget, however, I do have a big problem with the the claims he has made in advertisments about gains in verticle jump. I can’t remember the specific claims, but anytime someone claims you can increase your vert something like 10 inches in 6 months, they are full of bullshit.
I understand that Kelly’s competitors make such claims so he has to if he wants to sell product. It’s tough to make sales if you say 5 inches in 6 month and your competitor promises 10.[/quote]
I agree that claims like that are bullshit, but if you actually read KB’s site, there aren’t claims about specific height increases. He has testimonials on there that list specifics, but he doesn’t make any claims like that. Luke Lowery on the other hand…
[quote]
By the way, NOBODY has a 50 inch verticle and hardly anybody has a 40. It’s all bullcrap.[/quote]
Yeah, there’s a fair number going low-40s from the run and a few going high 40s. I doubt there are even 10 inviduals on this planet who go 50"+ from the run, much less standstill.
I actually don’t agree with everything Charlie says, I just feel it is ridiculous to compare KB or say any portion of his training is better when he hasn’t broken 11 and hasn’t coached anyone who has to my knowledge (let alone sub 10!).
RE: CF’s athletes on PED’s (not PFD’s, bud)
Ben Johnson, probably the best example, ran 10.26 as a junior and made the finals of every Grand Prix meet (you won’t find any juniors that make ONE final these days). This was before he started taking PED’s. Now, considering this same athletes was running mid/high 11’s only a few years before, I’d say that’s pretty good. The fact that more than 2/3 of his athletes made a nat’l or int’l final, I’d say that’s pretty good, esp. when he says less than 1/3 of his athletes were on PEDs (obviously, BJ/Desai/McKoy/Issajenko were and he doesn’t deny it).
KB doesn’t get much respect because he produces cookie cutter workouts that people think are “great” for beginners, when he doesn’t even know where these guys are athletically and developmentally. His absurd claims w/o the results are pretty astonishing as well. If everybody who had a 40+" running vertical decided to write articles promising success and getting to the same level, we would be bombarded by clowns (we already are) who really don’t know what they are talking about. KB is a good guy and appears to know his stuff, but I would be careful to trust a guy making such promises w/ cookie cutter workouts.
[quote]davan wrote:
I actually don’t agree with everything Charlie says, I just feel it is ridiculous to compare KB or say any portion of his training is better when he hasn’t broken 11 and hasn’t coached anyone who has to my knowledge (let alone sub 10!).
RE: CF’s athletes on PED’s (not PFD’s, bud)
Ben Johnson, probably the best example, ran 10.26 as a junior and made the finals of every Grand Prix meet (you won’t find any juniors that make ONE final these days). This was before he started taking PED’s. Now, considering this same athletes was running mid/high 11’s only a few years before, I’d say that’s pretty good. The fact that more than 2/3 of his athletes made a nat’l or int’l final, I’d say that’s pretty good, esp. when he says less than 1/3 of his athletes were on PEDs (obviously, BJ/Desai/McKoy/Issajenko were and he doesn’t deny it).
KB doesn’t get much respect because he produces cookie cutter workouts that people think are “great” for beginners, when he doesn’t even know where these guys are athletically and developmentally. His absurd claims w/o the results are pretty astonishing as well. If everybody who had a 40+" running vertical decided to write articles promising success and getting to the same level, we would be bombarded by clowns (we already are) who really don’t know what they are talking about. KB is a good guy and appears to know his stuff, but I would be careful to trust a guy making such promises w/ cookie cutter workouts.[/quote]
Fair enough. It’s weird, we just had a 4 or 5 response argument… while I actually agreed with almost everything you said.
You just have to realize that I deal with a lot of clowns that think Jumpsoles are the way to go for improving speed and vert. Practically any program, cookie cutter or not, is going to be great.
I would still recommend KB to any beginner, and I think you will find that he has a lot of knowledge on how to progress past the beginner or intermediate stage. Whether or not he’s worked with athletes that have done it… I guess not. I use a lot of his concepts in my own training, although I would still very much consider myself a beginner.
[quote]davan wrote:
I actually don’t agree with everything Charlie says, I just feel it is ridiculous to compare KB or say any portion of his training is better when he hasn’t broken 11 and hasn’t coached anyone who has to my knowledge (let alone sub 10!).
RE: CF’s athletes on PED’s (not PFD’s, bud)
Ben Johnson, probably the best example, ran 10.26 as a junior and made the finals of every Grand Prix meet (you won’t find any juniors that make ONE final these days). This was before he started taking PED’s. Now, considering this same athletes was running mid/high 11’s only a few years before, I’d say that’s pretty good. The fact that more than 2/3 of his athletes made a nat’l or int’l final, I’d say that’s pretty good, esp. when he says less than 1/3 of his athletes were on PEDs (obviously, BJ/Desai/McKoy/Issajenko were and he doesn’t deny it).
KB doesn’t get much respect because he produces cookie cutter workouts that people think are “great” for beginners, when he doesn’t even know where these guys are athletically and developmentally. His absurd claims w/o the results are pretty astonishing as well. If everybody who had a 40+" running vertical decided to write articles promising success and getting to the same level, we would be bombarded by clowns (we already are) who really don’t know what they are talking about. KB is a good guy and appears to know his stuff, but I would be careful to trust a guy making such promises w/ cookie cutter workouts.[/quote]
Davan,
Charlie Francis’ recond speaks for itself. I think he’s a great coach.
However, to state that Kelly Baggett writes ‘cookie cutter’ programs is not accurate though. Here’s why. In his book the Vertical Jump Development Bible, he has you test various aspects of strength, and THEN he tells you what programs to follow. Cookie Cutter? In that regard, less than most. However, in a book written to the public, it is likely the least ‘cookie cutter’ format that exists. Obviously working with someone is a whole differnt ball game, but if you are not going to have that ability to work with someone hands on, then what do you propose?
[quote]davan wrote:
I actually don’t agree with everything Charlie says, I just feel it is ridiculous to compare KB or say any portion of his training is better when he hasn’t broken 11 and hasn’t coached anyone who has to my knowledge (let alone sub 10!).
RE: CF’s athletes on PED’s (not PFD’s, bud)
Ben Johnson, probably the best example, ran 10.26 as a junior and made the finals of every Grand Prix meet (you won’t find any juniors that make ONE final these days). This was before he started taking PED’s. Now, considering this same athletes was running mid/high 11’s only a few years before, I’d say that’s pretty good. The fact that more than 2/3 of his athletes made a nat’l or int’l final, I’d say that’s pretty good, esp. when he says less than 1/3 of his athletes were on PEDs (obviously, BJ/Desai/McKoy/Issajenko were and he doesn’t deny it).
KB doesn’t get much respect because he produces cookie cutter workouts that people think are “great” for beginners, when he doesn’t even know where these guys are athletically and developmentally. His absurd claims w/o the results are pretty astonishing as well. If everybody who had a 40+" running vertical decided to write articles promising success and getting to the same level, we would be bombarded by clowns (we already are) who really don’t know what they are talking about. KB is a good guy and appears to know his stuff, but I would be careful to trust a guy making such promises w/ cookie cutter workouts.[/quote]
I pretty much agree w/ everthing you, Nick and Trisey just wrote. You ever hear of a typo?