[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< JPII = Pope John Paul II. Neither do I but the Church took a distinctive turn. >>> [/quote]I meant the Reverend you were referring to. Unless I misunderstood. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Well, who knows maybe in a few more times studying the literature I’ll have changed my mind on the death penalty.[/quote]Even forgetting entirely about the levitical law for a minute, it is not possible to let the bible speak and escape it’s endorsement of capital punishment. You WILL discover that to be the case.
Being forgiven even for murder and going to heaven has nothing to do with the remaining culpability for crimes committed on Earth. If my child were to wreck my car, I would forgive them and love them, but they are paying for that car. Nowhere does the bible allow man the authority to wave a capital penalty based on the good behavior of the convict. The crime warrants the sentence independently of anything the criminal subsequently does.
Of course along will come somebody declaring how what I’ve just said is even MORE evidence of how far Christians should be kept from having any voice in society, but I can’t help that.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I disagree. Rehabilitation is irrelevant and does not absolve someone from the consequences for their crimes. I was hammered by people I worked with when Karla Faye Tucker was put to death in Texas despite gaining what even I thought was a credible Christian testimony in the years leading up to her death. "But Greg I thought you were a Christian? She’s one of your own, even you say so, how can you support Bush’s denial of clemency and seeing her die?
Being forgiven even for murder and going to heaven has nothing to do with the remaining culpability for crimes committed on Earth. If my child were to wreck my car, I would forgive them and love them, but they are paying for that car. Nowhere does the bible allow man the authority to wave a capital penalty based on the good behavior of the convict. The crime warrants the sentence independently of anything the criminal subsequently does.
Of course along will come somebody declaring how what I’ve just said is even MORE evidence of how far Christians should be kept from having any voice in society, but I can’t help that.
[/quote]
Great post Tiribs.
I was also hammered for my faith about my thoughts about Karla Faye Tucker. She committed a crime and must pay the punishment for that crime. My thoughts are if I was her, I would want my sentence to be carried out. I will be in a much better place after it is done than in this world. Karla, was not afraid of death. She knew where she was going. Never met the woman, but I am thinking she is my sister, and I will see her in heaven.
I have heard that Jeffery Dahmer was also a Christian before his death. I only can go with the Testimony of the clergy that brought him to Jesus. Amazing how God can bring even these people to the cross and forgive them. Maybe I should do the same, even though I am forgiven does not mean there are no consequences for my crime, the punishment is set forth in the Law Books.
The death penalty does preserve life. That is the intent. To stop those who would take a life for no reason.
[/quote]
I do not see how reason is involved in determining if someone is killed or murdered, could you please explain?
How does killing someone without reason lead to rape, or repeat killings? Yes Jail costs more money, if and only if, we take away the appeals process and execute the right after they are found guilty.
What theological problem does it present, several in my point of view at the moment. (Understand I am neither defending nor offending my pov, merely explaining)
Killing an innocent man that has repented for his sins
Killing a sinful man before he might have been able to repent of his sins.
Killing a possibly falsely convicted man
How do you know I was using the Bible?
I never even opened up the Bible for this thread.
I fully understand my position and the philosophical position I take, however Tirib pointed out to me my misguided view, and that the Catholic Church (Pre-VII) had said something different. I took a step back to look at it the situation to see what I can find, and am still coming to my conclusion. Not once have I opened a Bible, but thanks.
But what logic do you use to say that the death penalty is okay?[/quote]
sorry, in place of reason, insert just cause.
And you are claiming to be catholic and said “theological” issues. forgive me for assuming that you might use the bible as a source of edification and supporting your beliefs.
side bar: so you don’t believe in a relationship with GOD, you see catholicism as a philosophy. The way you speak that is what I get.
Which leads to the theological issues;
forgiveness does not mean you do not punish the sin, but also I believe the death penalty shold be used for the more deviant and heinous. Not I was int he wrong place at the wrong time or made a stupid mistake. But the ones who drag women off the street beat them and rape them. Or steal little children, rape/torture them, shove them in suitcases and throw them in a pond near your house, to be released yrs later to kidnapp girls and store them in his backyard as sex slaves for yrs, but that kind of stuff never happens. Oh that’s right, seems to happen more frequently then someone being found innocent in the appeal process.
No reason to be forgiven, it was an honest mistake. Yes, I could have used the Bible, but there is a lot of theological issues that are presented outside the Bible in deeper form. So, yes what I was reading had scripture in it, it was not the Bible. However, I have forgone those as they are not infallible documents, and am not redeveloping my thoughts through other sources.
I do believe in a relationship with God, I see Catholicism as more than a philosophy.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< JPII = Pope John Paul II. Neither do I but the Church took a distinctive turn. >>> [/quote]I meant the Reverend you were referring to. Unless I misunderstood. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Well, who knows maybe in a few more times studying the literature I’ll have changed my mind on the death penalty.[/quote]Even forgetting entirely about the levitical law for a minute, it is not possible to let the bible speak and escape it’s endorsement of capital punishment. You WILL discover that to be the case.
Being forgiven even for murder and going to heaven has nothing to do with the remaining culpability for crimes committed on Earth. If my child were to wreck my car, I would forgive them and love them, but they are paying for that car. Nowhere does the bible allow man the authority to wave a capital penalty based on the good behavior of the convict. The crime warrants the sentence independently of anything the criminal subsequently does.
Of course along will come somebody declaring how what I’ve just said is even MORE evidence of how far Christians should be kept from having any voice in society, but I can’t help that.
[/quote]
The Reverend, is just a Priest I know in a local Parish. You make a good point, I’ll keep that in mind these next few days.
If someone says that, they obviously lack the culpability to understand basic State documents like the Bill of Rights.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< The Reverend, is just a Priest I know in a local Parish. You make a good point, I’ll keep that in mind these next few days.
If someone says that, they obviously lack the culpability to understand basic State documents like the Bill of Rights. [/quote]
I’ll look forward to your findings and refrain from further comment on the modern Catholic view for now.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< The Reverend, is just a Priest I know in a local Parish. You make a good point, I’ll keep that in mind these next few days.
If someone says that, they obviously lack the culpability to understand basic State documents like the Bill of Rights. [/quote]
I’ll look forward to your findings and refrain from further comment on the modern Catholic view for now.[/quote]
Go ahead, I love hearing what people think about the modern Catholic view, as not many things I agree with. Don’t even get me started on the Novus Ordo.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< The Reverend, is just a Priest I know in a local Parish. You make a good point, I’ll keep that in mind these next few days.
If someone says that, they obviously lack the culpability to understand basic State documents like the Bill of Rights. [/quote]
I’ll look forward to your findings and refrain from further comment on the modern Catholic view for now.[/quote]
Go ahead, I love hearing what people think about the modern Catholic view, as not many things I agree with. Don’t even get me started on the Novus Ordo.[/quote]
I don’t wanna ruin your joy in research so I’ll make it short. I’ll just say that the “new” (relatively) proclamation is that the bible and long standing tradition do in fact technically maintain the power of the sword in the civil magistrate for the punishment of capital crimes, but the Pope and bishops have determined that this is no longer applicable because it now does more harm than good.
Like I said, it is not credibly possible to coerce the bible into not saying what some of us have been upholding here. They acknowledge that. They also acknowledge that Roman tradition included this for many centuries. In short the revised “official” semi dogmatic, non ex cathedra position is that it has now outlived it’s usefulness. I must be honest in saying that I find this an abominable presumption upon the mind of God by modern men.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
<<< Karla, was not afraid of death. She knew where she was going. Never met the woman, but I am thinking she is my sister, and I will see her in heaven. >>>[/quote]
Before seeing the interview with her I was thinking: “Oh here we go. Some maniac killer broad trying to use the gospel with a bunch of lawyer coached rhetoric to escape justice”
She changed my mind. There was none of that. She acknowledged the great sin she had committed against God, the victim and the family and the fact that she deserved to die. I don’t remember her exact words, but even when pushed about whether her faith and that the prison officials even recognized the genuine change in her should be grounds for clemency, she just said it’s in God’s hands and hence the state will do what’s right. Not a hint of pretense or phoniness in her demeanor… or fear.
I told my wife, “I think I believe this woman has been made a partaker in the life of the risen Christ”. I also told her that that doesn’t change the fact that she’s right. She does deserve to die and the power of her testimony and the service of justice would be diminished if they let her live.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
<<< Karla, was not afraid of death. She knew where she was going. Never met the woman, but I am thinking she is my sister, and I will see her in heaven. >>>[/quote]
Before seeing the interview with her I was thinking: “Oh here we go. Some maniac killer broad trying to use the gospel with a bunch of lawyer coached rhetoric to escape justice”
She changed my mind. There was none of that. She acknowledged the great sin she had committed against God, the victim and the family and the fact that she deserved to die. I don’t remember her exact words, but even when pushed about whether her faith and that the prison officials even recognized the genuine change in her should be grounds for clemency, she just said it’s in God’s hands and hence the state will do what’s right. Not a hint of pretense or phoniness in her demeanor… or fear.
I told my wife, “I think I believe this woman has been made a partaker in the life of the risen Christ”. I also told her that that doesn’t change the fact that she’s right. She does deserve to die and the power of her testimony and the service of justice would be diminished if they let her live.[/quote]
Agree with you whole heartedly. You could look into her eyes, and see something different in her. I dont know if the family of the victims forgave her or not, but she looked sincere to me.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I don’t wanna ruin your joy in research so I’ll make it short. I’ll just say that the “new” (relatively) proclamation is that the bible and long standing tradition do in fact technically maintain the power of the sword in the civil magistrate for the punishment of capital crimes, but the Pope and bishops have determined that this is no longer applicable because it now does more harm than good.
Like I said, it is not credibly possible to coerce the bible into not saying what some of us have been upholding here. They acknowledge that. They also acknowledge that Roman tradition included this for many centuries. In short the revised “official” semi dogmatic, non ex cathedra position is that it has now outlived it’s usefulness. I must be honest in saying that I find this an abominable presumption upon the mind of God by modern men.[/quote]
I have come to a new conclusion on the idea of the Death Penalty, I used to hold it true that there was no reason for the Death Penalty, but have concluded the contrary to be self-evident now. That God holds Justice to be true to the spirit of the law. And, that the Death Penalty is held in place for the reason of providing Justice to those men that are sinful.
I come to the conclusion through the following passages:
With two Doctor’s and a Council, I will have to prudently transfer my beliefs that the Death Penalty is just, and should be used in appropriate places when an grave injustice has been committed.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I have come to a new conclusion on the idea of the Death Penalty, I used to hold it true that there was no reason for the Death Penalty, but have concluded the contrary to be self-evident now. That God holds Justice to be true to the spirit of the law. And, that the Death Penalty is held in place for the reason of providing Justice to those men that are sinful. >>>[/quote]
I wouldn’t lie to ya =]
I’m half asleep so I’ll have more in the morning, but it’s interesting you quoted 3 works I’ve read and used to own. Augustine’s City of God is a masterpiece. You probably won’t like this, but I claim it as an early pre-reformation protestant work.(yes that makes sense to me) Calvin quotes it extensively in his Institutes of the Christian Religion referring to the Bishop of Hippo outta respect simply as “the theologian”. (another story)
Aquinas is worth reading whether you’re catholic or not. That guy was a monster intellect. I knew his view on this from having read him years ago.
I also had a 3 volume set named “The Creeds of Christendom” which was a compilation of every statement of the Christian faith in the history of the world including the canons and decrees of the council Trent. The thing about this arguably greatest of all the ecumenical councils is that some careful study will reveal that every word of it is still church dogma even having been reaffirmed at Vatican II. If you wanna know catholic doctrine that is the one stop shop right there. No orthodox catholic authority is going to officially renounce anything that emerged from that council. I think I brought this up in some other thread.
Oh well, I already went longer than I planned as shouldn’t surprise anybody. I’ll be back after some sleep and I get some more work done.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I have come to a new conclusion on the idea of the Death Penalty, I used to hold it true that there was no reason for the Death Penalty, but have concluded the contrary to be self-evident now. That God holds Justice to be true to the spirit of the law. And, that the Death Penalty is held in place for the reason of providing Justice to those men that are sinful. >>>[/quote]
I wouldn’t lie to ya =]
I’m half asleep so I’ll have more in the morning, but it’s interesting you quoted 3 works I’ve read and used to own. Augustine’s City of God is a masterpiece. You probably won’t like this, but I claim it as an early pre-reformation protestant work.(yes that makes sense to me) Calvin quotes it extensively in his Institutes of the Christian Religion referring to the Bishop of Hippo outta respect simply as “the theologian”. (another story)
[/quote]
Well councils have always been to correct either the Church, or the Heretics and usually both. Protestants or at least Luther was Catholic and believed in the Catholic Church, believed in the Eucharist and Priesthood, &c. So, it is not a matter of liking it or not, it is a matter of Augustine seeing problems in the Church writing about them, but not going so far as to become a heretic and becoming excommunicated. Where Luther, Calvin, and the rest of them made their mistake.
I do not know how many people who are interested in Theology who dismiss this guy because he’s Catholic, and I point to the Atheist Philosophers who read Aquinas work.
I do not remember reading your statement, but I am sure you have and it is likely true.
[quote]
Oh well, I already went longer than I planned as shouldn’t surprise anybody. I’ll be back after some sleep and I get some more work done.[/quote]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< Augustine seeing problems in the Church writing about them, but not going so far as to become a heretic and becoming excommunicated. Where Luther, Calvin, and the rest of them made their mistake. >>>[/quote]
Augustine lived 1200 years before Luther and Calvin and as you will guess I don’t believe they were the ones making the mistake. I will say that despite it’s many grievous sins the roman church was used of God to preserve many essentials of the gospel for a significant period of history. (another long different topic)
I wasn’t going to rebut you as on this issue (capital punishment) we are coming to significant agreement. I was going to go into the biblical evidence, but every time I start on something like that I’m reminded of why I tried to stay away from specific scriptural arguments for so long in these forums. There is a ton of preliminary foundation before you can even get started. Like rules of interpretation (hermeneutics) being the largest. All manner of horrific damnable error is committed when unsound principles of exegesis and exposition are employed when approaching the word of God (I’m speaking generally here).
I can’t even quote one verse or passage without immediately being drawn into the broader systematic principles involved and ending up with a 16 volume post. I have a very difficult time with brevity and conciseness with topics of spiritual import. I’ll see if I can work on it. I could probably find some web page that does a good job, but I prefer to do it myself.
Augustine lived 1200 years before Luther and Calvin and as you will guess I don’t believe they were the ones making the mistake. I will say that despite it’s many grievous sins the roman church was used of God to preserve many essentials of the gospel for a significant period of history. (another long different topic)
[/quote]
And it still is, it could never stop being no matter how bad it gets, it corrects itself (Councils, Saints, &C). However, when I say “mistake,” I am talking about not being the rational one to talk it out rather than just go hay-wire and split from the Church and teach false doctrine. Same with Henry VIII, he took it too far. However, St. Augustine had comments and corrections for the Church, but he did not go so far to spread heresy and split from the Church.
Do not worry about that, Biblical evidence gives me a headache too, because people like to use out of context/partial/incomplete scripture.
I can’t even quote one verse or passage without immediately being drawn into the broader systematic principles involved and ending up with a 16 volume post. I have a very difficult time with brevity and conciseness with topics of spiritual import. I’ll see if I can work on it. I could probably find some web page that does a good job, but I prefer to do it myself.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
While I have no problem with seeing murderers put to death I don’t support the death penalty. The reason why is because te way the legal system works makes it way too easy for an innocent person to end up on death row.[/quote]
got any stats to back that assumption up? I’m not saying you’re wrong - just want the data if you got it.[/quote]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< And it still is, it could never stop being no matter how bad it gets, it corrects itself (Councils, Saints, &C). However, when I say “mistake,” I am talking about not being the rational one to talk it out rather than just go hay-wire and split from the Church and teach false doctrine. Same with Henry VIII, he took it too far. However, St. Augustine had comments and corrections for the Church, but he did not go so far to spread heresy and split from the Church. >>>[/quote]I am going to resist the urge, at least for now, to do my usual thing and go off on the sidetrack of the century with this =] I already have one waiting, in response to AngryChicken from before.(I didn’t forget about ya bud)[quote]Brother Chris wrote:Do not worry about that, Biblical evidence gives me a headache too, because people like to use out of context/partial/incomplete scripture. >>>[/quote]And herein lies one of the defining differences, maybe THE defining difference between roman catholicism and “the Way, the Truth and the Life” which by incomprehensible grace grants me admittance as an individual man beyond the rent veil into the holy of holies. The priesthood of the son of God, the one after the order of Melchizedek of which I have been made an intimate participant is the only one I need. If you know your catholic doctrine at all you’ll know exactly what I’m talkin about here and how it applies to your quote and our discussion of capital punishment.
i’m a pubic defender. i’ve sat in jail with many hundreds of defendants. I was sort of pro death penalty until i sat down with someone who was eligible to receive it. I left the meeting feeling “nope, I couldn’t flip the switch, or push in the plunger on the syringe.”
it’s easy to engage in discussions like Trib and BC, or simply say “kill the bastards, they deserve it.” The truth (for me) is that it would be more difficult to carry it out (the calculated, legal killing of a human), than i would have imagined.
BTW, I now work for the state in an administrative role. It is FAR more expensive to legally kill a man than to house him for a lifetime.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
While I have no problem with seeing murderers put to death I don’t support the death penalty. The reason why is because te way the legal system works makes it way too easy for an innocent person to end up on death row.[/quote]got any stats to back that assumption up? I’m not saying you’re wrong - just want the data if you got it.[/quote]http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/351.php[/quote]Any argument in opposition to capital punishment based on erroneous convictions is an argument for ever improving law enforcement and prosecutorial methods. Not against the death penalty. In fact technical advancements are themselves an argument in favor. There’s also a powerful argument in here for returning to a society where heinous death worthy crimes are the shocking exception they once were rather than the yawn inducing norm they are now. Sheer volume is taking it’s toll on the reliability of convictions. This is where we started going a page or 2 ago.
[quote]PDJD wrote:
i’m a pubic defender. i’ve sat in jail with many hundreds of defendants. I was sort of pro death penalty until i sat down with someone who was eligible to receive it. I left the meeting feeling “nope, I couldn’t flip the switch, or push in the plunger on the syringe.”
it’s easy to engage in discussions like Trib and BC, or simply say “kill the bastards, they deserve it.” The truth (for me) is that it would be more difficult to carry it out (the calculated, legal killing of a human), than i would have imagined.
BTW, I now work for the state in an administrative role. It is FAR more expensive to legally kill a man than to house him for a lifetime. [/quote]
Using emotions to form your opinions is not a good idea. I’m sure you could pull up many cases or people in which certain policies have a negative effect. Emotionally, this may want us to repeal those policies but by using logic and reasoning we can avoid falling into emotional traps.