[quote]angry chicken wrote:
<<< a couple long posts >>>[/quote]
I do appreciate all you’ve done to improve your life. I do. However you are a living object lesson in exactly why someone personally and emotionally invested in this debate is exactly the wrong person to consult for policy. All I can do is tell you again that I mean this as absolutely no belittling dismissal of you as a person or the impact of your life experiences. Whether you believe that or not is outta my hands.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
“The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering the prisons.”
- Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The House of the Dead
You guys are a trip. Seriously. Reading this thread was kinda like watching a monkey try to fuck a football: both disturbing and entertaining at the same time.
How many of you have been to prison?
How many of you have been in a position where YOU had to consider taking someone’s life?
How many of you grew up in an environment where crime was the status quo?
Ever heard the word REHABILITATION? Do you hold human life in such LOW esteem?
It’s easy to sit back in your comfortable life and judge. The fact is that our “justice” system is seriously flawed, under funded to support the laws enacted (war on drugs anyone), and blatantly inconsistent. The United States incarcerates more people per capita than ANY other “first world” country, yet still has the highest murder/violent crime rates…
(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/us/23prison.html - is the NY times an acceptable source? I can dig deeper if need be…)
The world is not black and white. Innocent people are locked up every day because of the pressure to close cases. “Beyond a reasonable doubt”? Who’s doubt? An overworked “public pretender” vs. a high paid prosecuting attorney with a staff? PLEASE… And people should lose their lives because of a fundamentally flawed system like this? The very thought is disgusting.
I guess most of you think that I should be still in prison? Or executed? FUCK YOU. I did my time. And despite popular opinion, prison is NOT a country club with cable television. It is not having a moment’s peace for years knowing that at any moment you can be killed, sodomized, robbed, beaten or disfigured for no reason at all by both inmates or guards. In times of despair, many would WELCOME the solace of death… It ain’t a fucking picnic.
I don’t expect to sway any opinions here - My previous ventures into PWI have been met with close-mindedness, an irrational attachment to one’s own ideas and an inability to play nicely (hence my previous paragraph)… But since I have actually BEEN to prison, I felt that I was actually QUALIFIED to offer an opinion based on experience rather than imagination or theory.
[/quote]
AC-thanks for the personal perspective - it’s vital that as a society we never forget the harsh reality of prison life. Much love and kudos for being out here. You’re in my prayers.
As AC rightly points out - life behind bars is a whole different reality from the lives we live out here in the free world. We have no idea of the terror of waiting for that release date or praying to God for a lifeboat before that back door parole catches up with you.
He also has legitimate criticisms of our legal system. There are problems, especially in the mega-cities. The system is overwhelmed and we spend more on pensions for park workers than we do on our communities. I have specific criticisms and suggestions for improving it - but the reality stands, a lot of people are simply run through the system as numbers. Our courts were simply not designed for the processing and handling of this many cases. now, some communities have done awesome at trying to upgrade and catch up, but the system is being overwhelmed because our communities have fallen apart . . sorry, off on a rant.
Again AC, thanks for the input. hope you got it like that!
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Angry Chicken, I would say you are one of the exceptions and not the rule, but I am hoping that I am wrong. I hope you are the rule and not the exception. I hope that people really can change their lives after leaving prison. I am just tired of the victims being the ones penalized for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, and the criminal getting off with just a slap on the wrist. I guess that is why we have a parol system, so if a person is rehabilitated then they can get out.
[/quote]
The difference is literacy. Literacy and education. I grew up in a fucked up neighborhood. My Mom’s first two husbands beat the shit out of me every day. The Third husband kicked me out on the street when I was sixteen. I was an angry young man with nothing to lose (or so I believed at the time). I just accepted that this was my life and rode the roller coaster to the inevitable end… Just like many other young men that many of you are so quick to judge and execute.
But I could read. I eventually worked in the prison library, educated myself and got my GED. I actually tutored grown men on the very BASICS of reading. Honestly, most of them are functionally illiterate. It’s not that they aren’t smart. I have met some very intelligent people behind bars. The fact that they are alive is a testament to their ability to adapt and learn… Most of you wouldn’t survive an hour in the environment they called home. An environment they didn’t ask to be born into. Coupled with an education system that is utterly useless… I don’t think anyone here would fare much better.
Let’s talk about recidivism for a minute. I mean if we let them out and they violate parole, then that just proves that they don’t deserve another chance, right? When I was on parole, my PO told me, in no uncertain terms, “if you so much as breathe wrong, I will lock your white ass back up”. I remember those words very clearly. Then they give you a pamphlet written by some idiot that jumps around all over the place but doesn’t really tell you what you SHOULD do… Are we surprised that many illiterate parolees violate? I did my best not to “breathe wrong”…
Then you have cops leaning on you every other day to snitch, if you have kids, social services steps in and garnishes 90% of the pay of your minimum wage job (on top of the $40 a week you pay to the department of corrections for being on parlole), You can’t quit the job to start a business, cuz your employer needs to sign your parole papers every week… So how the fuck is a person on parole supposed to succeed? The system is designed to make you fail. Interestingly enough, the DOC gets MORE funding per incarcerated inmate than parolee… So now they are reduced to a commodity that is more valuable INSIDE than OUT - and this is the department that regulates them? Kinda stinks, doesn’t it?
What you are forgetting is that they are human beings. They can learn. They can change if given an environment to do so. They shouldn’t be thrown out and forgotten as if they were trash. Every human has potential. We all hold worth. Everyone has the capacity to forgive and the ability to show that they deserve to be forgiven. If you turn you back on these basic tenants of humanity, you move dangerously close to fascism.
For those that commit the most heinous of crimes, instead of killing them and giving them the easy way out, give them a cell with a bed and a window and nothing else. Extinguish their ego, deny them the status and the limelight… If you remove these “secondary payoffs” I assure you they will PRAY for the death penalty. Don’t give it to them. That’s too easy.[/quote]
Man, parole is sounding like it’s degraded even worse than it was . . . sorry for your experience
Thank you. The older I get, the more potential I see in people. Ten years ago, I was pro-death penalty… I changed my opinion after volunteering in my old neighborhood and working with some of the kids that could easily go down the exact same path that I went down - or worse… It changes you.
Some of the kids I worked with DID get locked up. Or shot. It is a world that many people can’t even begin to imagine. We say, “just don’t break the law”… Sometimes it isn’t as black and white as that.
Treating the cause is a far wiser approach than treating the symptom. Like it or not, we have areas of our country that were Red Lined and deliberately segregated, under-funded and left to degrade to their current condition. Especially the schools.
And now people bitch about the cost of incarcerating those who live there when crimes are committed… A long term, cost effective approach focusing on prevention can lower the overall crime rate, empower emerging markets, stimulate the economy and relative home values in at risk sectors, and raise the quality of life for a significant percentage of Americans. End the cycle.
That is a far more humane way of dealing with people than just locking them up and/or executing them.
I do think that those who are dangerous to society should be punished severely. As I said earlier: a cell with a bed and a window. For life. No visits. Minimal contact with anyone. That is worse than the death penalty, believe me. Being in “the hole” is a bitch. But it also gives them a chance to think and reflect on what they’ve done.
A penitentiary is a place to seek penance for sins (crimes) committed. After many years to think about it, all but the criminally insane will find their humanity. They will have to, if only to stay sane. One can learn a lot in an 8 x 10 - including the error of one’s ways.
It also leaves them alive if somehow “lost” evidence exonerates them. Imagine that?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
And now people bitch about the cost of incarcerating those who live there when crimes are committed… A long term, cost effective approach focusing on prevention can lower the overall crime rate, empower emerging markets, stimulate the economy and relative home values in at risk sectors, and raise the quality of life for a significant percentage of Americans. End the cycle.
[/quote]
AC you are an inspiration. I really hope the community work you are doing changes the lives of people in your area.
I would love for the above to happen. Here in Houston, there is a predominately poor black area that the city council, community activists, and legislatures all the way up to the federal government, want the area to stay cheap. They want the people who have lived there forever to be able to afford a home. These houses are the typical crack house stereotype. They have even thought about writing laws that will not allow developers into the area to build new homes. Building new homes increase the values, cleans up the neighborhood, and the property taxes go up. All these things are good, but the people in the area are living off the government, so if property taxes go up the people that live there can not pay their property taxes and have to move somewhere else. People want to help but it seems like the people in power want to tie our hands. To me it seems like the poor people’s handlers do not want them to get out of poverty. They enable them to stay poor so they continue to get votes.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
And now people bitch about the cost of incarcerating those who live there when crimes are committed… A long term, cost effective approach focusing on prevention can lower the overall crime rate, empower emerging markets, stimulate the economy and relative home values in at risk sectors, and raise the quality of life for a significant percentage of Americans. End the cycle.
[/quote]
AC you are an inspiration. I really hope the community work you are doing changes the lives of people in your area.
I would love for the above to happen. Here in Houston, there is a predominately poor black area that the city council, community activists, and legislatures all the way up to the federal government, want the area to stay cheap. They want the people who have lived there forever to be able to afford a home. These houses are the typical crack house stereotype. They have even thought about writing laws that will not allow developers into the area to build new homes. Building new homes increase the values, cleans up the neighborhood, and the property taxes go up. All these things are good, but the people in the area are living off the government, so if property taxes go up the people that live there can not pay their property taxes and have to move somewhere else. People want to help but it seems like the people in power want to tie our hands. To me it seems like the poor people’s handlers do not want them to get out of poverty. They enable them to stay poor so they continue to get votes.[/quote]
Ignorant people are easy to control. The power plays and Machiavellian style local politics are indeed a large part of the problem. Education is the key. Replacing Affirmative Action style socialism with incentives that actually promote hard work and independence would be another key.
Honest community discussions about how to heal old wounds and finding a path forward would be another. There are many things that can be done at a community level that don’t need any government funding or guidance - Just a vision, a will to carry it out and the patience to see it through over decades, not years…
Awesome new line of thought developing in this thread.
Let’s keep the thread moving in this direction (the justice system):
What are the solutions you think are needed and what problems will they specifically address
Nothing will make any lasting significant difference until we have solid faithful healthy families again. Nothing.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
And now people bitch about the cost of incarcerating those who live there when crimes are committed… A long term, cost effective approach focusing on prevention can lower the overall crime rate, empower emerging markets, stimulate the economy and relative home values in at risk sectors, and raise the quality of life for a significant percentage of Americans. End the cycle.
[/quote]
AC you are an inspiration. I really hope the community work you are doing changes the lives of people in your area.
I would love for the above to happen. Here in Houston, there is a predominately poor black area that the city council, community activists, and legislatures all the way up to the federal government, want the area to stay cheap. They want the people who have lived there forever to be able to afford a home. These houses are the typical crack house stereotype. They have even thought about writing laws that will not allow developers into the area to build new homes. Building new homes increase the values, cleans up the neighborhood, and the property taxes go up. All these things are good, but the people in the area are living off the government, so if property taxes go up the people that live there can not pay their property taxes and have to move somewhere else. People want to help but it seems like the people in power want to tie our hands. To me it seems like the poor people’s handlers do not want them to get out of poverty. They enable them to stay poor so they continue to get votes.[/quote]
Ignorant people are easy to control. The power plays and Machiavellian style local politics are indeed a large part of the problem. Education is the key. Replacing Affirmative Action style socialism with incentives that actually promote hard work and independence would be another key.
Honest community discussions about how to heal old wounds and finding a path forward would be another. There are many things that can be done at a community level that don’t need any government funding or guidance - Just a vision, a will to carry it out and the patience to see it through over decades, not years… [/quote]
Agreed. It has taken decades to get into this situation it will take decades to get out.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Nothing will make any lasting significant difference until we have solid faithful healthy families again. Nothing.[/quote]
In the areas of highest crime, many of the families are broken because of fathers in prison… Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
And now people bitch about the cost of incarcerating those who live there when crimes are committed… A long term, cost effective approach focusing on prevention can lower the overall crime rate, empower emerging markets, stimulate the economy and relative home values in at risk sectors, and raise the quality of life for a significant percentage of Americans. End the cycle.
[/quote]
AC you are an inspiration. I really hope the community work you are doing changes the lives of people in your area.
I would love for the above to happen. Here in Houston, there is a predominately poor black area that the city council, community activists, and legislatures all the way up to the federal government, want the area to stay cheap. They want the people who have lived there forever to be able to afford a home. These houses are the typical crack house stereotype. They have even thought about writing laws that will not allow developers into the area to build new homes. Building new homes increase the values, cleans up the neighborhood, and the property taxes go up. All these things are good, but the people in the area are living off the government, so if property taxes go up the people that live there can not pay their property taxes and have to move somewhere else. People want to help but it seems like the people in power want to tie our hands. To me it seems like the poor people’s handlers do not want them to get out of poverty. They enable them to stay poor so they continue to get votes.[/quote]
Ignorant people are easy to control. The power plays and Machiavellian style local politics are indeed a large part of the problem. Education is the key. Replacing Affirmative Action style socialism with incentives that actually promote hard work and independence would be another key.
Honest community discussions about how to heal old wounds and finding a path forward would be another. There are many things that can be done at a community level that don’t need any government funding or guidance - Just a vision, a will to carry it out and the patience to see it through over decades, not years… [/quote]
Agreed. It has taken decades to get into this situation it will take decades to get out.[/quote]
It will take a generation or two. Possible more.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Nothing will make any lasting significant difference until we have solid faithful healthy families again. Nothing.[/quote]
In the areas of highest crime, many of the families are broken because of fathers in prison… Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
[/quote]
Those families were broken, if they ever actually existed in the first place, long before dad (or mom) was in prison or he (or she) wouldn’t be there. I’d be happy to have this discussion, actually I have had it 100 times, but I don’t want to get too far off the topic here.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Awesome new line of thought developing in this thread.
Let’s keep the thread moving in this direction (the justice system):
What are the solutions you think are needed and what problems will they specifically address[/quote]
The problem is that our system of government is set up to be very short sighted. Most “action plans” are engineered around election cycles and are designed to look good, rather than be effective long term plans. Everyone wants a quick fix and statistics to show by the next election… It is just plain STUPID to think that you can solve a problem of this magnitude in such a short time frame.
It quickly sinks down to petty politics, calling in/refusing favors, threatening long held positions and alliances… The system as it is currently structured WILL NOT solve these problems. It has become so partisan that it can no longer effect lasting policy. The political cycles are shorter than the time frame necessary to even make a dent…
That’s why I focus on MY community. I know the system can’t change, so I focus on the few lives I can touch. The first obstacle is the anger. It is deep and entrenched. Getting a young person past the anger is the greatest challenge. Only then can their minds not be pulled in so many negative directions and they have the strength and belief in themselves to make good decisions. I try to give them hope. I use my story as an example, and the fact that I have actually been in their shoes gives me the leverage - even if it is ever so slight, to pry open their defenses and get through to them.
I hate to sound pessimistic, but I fear that our system (and not only the Justice system) does not have the capacity to change. And the actions and ramifications involved are beyond the scope of this thread, as I understand it. We could talk about “if only” until we are blue in the face, but the fact remains that politics and policy are not always in line with the greater good… I am not so naive to think that everyone can be happy and roll around with puppy dogs on marshmallow fields with fanny packs filled with rainbow dicks, but then I look at all of the money that we spend on other countries, defense spending to support our meddling in other parts of the world when we don’t even have our own house in order, and I can’t help but think that we can do better here at home. We are declining. Rapidly if you compare it to the decline of other empires in history. Socially, economically, militarily and our position as the “world’s greatest super power” is threatened.
Sorry to take this completely off track. It’s hard for me to stay on topic when it just points to larger problems than the one being discussed. I just don’t see a solution by thinking small…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Nothing will make any lasting significant difference until we have solid faithful healthy families again. Nothing.[/quote]
In the areas of highest crime, many of the families are broken because of fathers in prison… Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
[/quote]
Those families were broken, if they ever actually existed in the first place, long before dad (or mom) was in prison or he (or she) wouldn’t be there. I’d be happy to have this discussion, actually I have had it 100 times, but I don’t want to get too far off the topic here.[/quote]
So much to discuss, but so little time, eh? I’d be interested in reading your opinion, could you point me in the right direction by giving me a thread link?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
<<< So much to discuss, but so little time, eh? I’d be interested in reading your opinion, could you point me in the right direction by giving me a thread link? [/quote]
Indeed. I’ve made numerous short, long and very long remarks on this topic in the past. When I get little time I’ll see what I can dig up. Or if you’re really interested I’ll PM you as short a version as my busy fingers will allow. You seem a decent fella. I’m glad we didn’t execute you =] even though my mind will never change on this topic.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Nothing will make any lasting significant difference until we have solid faithful healthy families again. Nothing.[/quote]
In the areas of highest crime, many of the families are broken because of fathers in prison… Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
[/quote]
Those families were broken, if they ever actually existed in the first place, long before dad (or mom) was in prison or he (or she) wouldn’t be there. I’d be happy to have this discussion, actually I have had it 100 times, but I don’t want to get too far off the topic here.[/quote]
So much to discuss, but so little time, eh? I’d be interested in reading your opinion, could you point me in the right direction by giving me a thread link? [/quote]
Correct me if I m wrong, but I believe the originial purpose of the legal system is to correct behavior through discipline. but we have not does not do that, I have been in both max and min security prisons with training, working security guards and actually some of them trained with us. And the way the system is set up, for the most part, pulls them towrad the deviant side rather than pulling the inmates back into a correct and moral way of thinking.
That does not change my mind about the Death penalty.
Some people on here are trying to make it seem as though being in favor of the death penalty means you think everyone who breaks the law should die. That is not the case either.
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
<<< Some people on here are trying to make it seem as though being in favor of the death penalty means you think everyone who breaks the law should die. That is not the case either. [/quote]
Of course not LOL!!!
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
having trouble with the idea of citizenship now?
personal motivations for a jury decision does not replace the systemic decision process of the legal system. Juries do not determine sentencing . . .
and we are back to square one . . . if you were the one making the decision about sentencing of killers, your opinion would have weight, but since you are not and do not make that decision . . . moot point . . . killing someone in self-defense or in premeditated murder is your only personal choice in this subject . . . everything else falls under the rule of law and as a component of our society’s rule of law, the death penalty serves as a confirmation of the high valuation of human life that we as a society have established - see all of my points above . . .[/quote]
Rule of Law does not mean everything is good. I am sure you know that though.
In which way do you think I am having trouble with the idea of citizenship?
I am afraid we never moved from square one, because your assumption of me even wanting to be the judge or jury on a murder case is wrong. And, you still have not explained how the death penalty (by destroying someone’s life) confirms the high valuation of human life. (Sidenote: If life was so valuable, why would we even consider taking it in an instance when no other life was in danger?)
This is my case, the death penalty not only goes against my political but my theological beliefs.[/quote]
The death penalty does preserve life. That is the intent. To stop those who would take a life for no reason.
[/quote]
I do not see how reason is involved in determining if someone is killed or murdered, could you please explain?
How does killing someone without reason lead to rape, or repeat killings? Yes Jail costs more money, if and only if, we take away the appeals process and execute the right after they are found guilty.
What theological problem does it present, several in my point of view at the moment. (Understand I am neither defending nor offending my pov, merely explaining)
- Killing an innocent man that has repented for his sins
- Killing a sinful man before he might have been able to repent of his sins.
- Killing a possibly falsely convicted man
How do you know I was using the Bible?
I never even opened up the Bible for this thread.
I fully understand my position and the philosophical position I take, however Tirib pointed out to me my misguided view, and that the Catholic Church (Pre-VII) had said something different. I took a step back to look at it the situation to see what I can find, and am still coming to my conclusion. Not once have I opened a Bible, but thanks.
But what logic do you use to say that the death penalty is okay?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< I have not really read on the DP much, I got my conclusion on the subject from a Reverend that still followed the way of Pre-VII. However, my ideas are being confirmed/changed and strengthen as I read/listen to old writings and sermons from traditional Reverends.
I do not really follow the new thinking, even though I was a fan of JPII. My fiance broke up with me because of my unwillingness to follow the Vatican II’s orders, actually.[/quote]
I obviously don’t know who this person was and I don’t remember if the second Vatican council addressed capital punishment, but I promise you the whole of Roman Catholic history includes the taking of human life in response to capital crimes up until rogue individuals began to question it in the 20th century. Of course it’s implementation has not remained constant as it once was the the case that the mere caprice of a pope or approved official was sufficient for one to find themselves on the business end of a stake and a torch.
[/quote]
JPII = Pope John Paul II. Neither do I but the Church took a distinctive turn.
[quote]
However, in recent centuries Rome has adopted the at least formally biblical view that the state bears the sword for the punishment of evildoers and insofar as that is carried out with honest jurisprudence and just motives it is sanctioned by God. Irishsteel here has taken it beyond form and delved into the spirit of the principle which I’m confident he is able to further defend. I’ll leave that to him since he is doing such a fine job, but if for some reason he is not available I will be happy to continue in his stead. BTW, he and I have never discussed this before this thread.[/quote]
Well, who knows maybe in a few more times studying the literature I’ll have changed my mind on the death penalty.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
“The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering the prisons.”
- Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The House of the Dead
You guys are a trip. Seriously. Reading this thread was kinda like watching a monkey try to fuck a football: both disturbing and entertaining at the same time.
How many of you have been to prison?
How many of you have been in a position where YOU had to consider taking someone’s life?
How many of you grew up in an environment where crime was the status quo?
Ever heard the word REHABILITATION? Do you hold human life in such LOW esteem?
It’s easy to sit back in your comfortable life and judge. The fact is that our “justice” system is seriously flawed, under funded to support the laws enacted (war on drugs anyone), and blatantly inconsistent. The United States incarcerates more people per capita than ANY other “first world” country, yet still has the highest murder/violent crime rates…
(Inmate Count in U.S. Dwarfs Other Nations’ - The New York Times - is the NY times an acceptable source? I can dig deeper if need be…)
The world is not black and white. Innocent people are locked up every day because of the pressure to close cases. “Beyond a reasonable doubt”? Who’s doubt? An overworked “public pretender” vs. a high paid prosecuting attorney with a staff? PLEASE… And people should lose their lives because of a fundamentally flawed system like this? The very thought is disgusting.
I guess most of you think that I should be still in prison? Or executed? FUCK YOU. I did my time. And despite popular opinion, prison is NOT a country club with cable television. It is not having a moment’s peace for years knowing that at any moment you can be killed, sodomized, robbed, beaten or disfigured for no reason at all by both inmates or guards. In times of despair, many would WELCOME the solace of death… It ain’t a fucking picnic.
I don’t expect to sway any opinions here - My previous ventures into PWI have been met with close-mindedness, an irrational attachment to one’s own ideas and an inability to play nicely (hence my previous paragraph)… But since I have actually BEEN to prison, I felt that I was actually QUALIFIED to offer an opinion based on experience rather than imagination or theory.
[/quote]
Of course an Angry Chicken can never be rehabilitated. 
I am sure those supportive of the Death Penalty are those that would only recommend it for the most heinous crimes and criminals that would not rehabilitate themselves.
P.S. What did you go to prison for, I do not recall reading.