If we can get back to the “Squat vs Deadlift” debate just recently I think CT stated that the Snatch-Grip Platform Deadlift was THE best lower body exercise, period.
While I’ve tried these in the past, I don’t think I gave them a fair trial because I always did them after squatting. But I think I’m going to give them another go because I continue to be weak off the floor in the Deadlift even as my Squat goes up.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
But anyone who trains to be “functional” usually doesn’t have all to tight a grasp on reality or the ability to go thru a logical thought process, so that might explain why overheads are preferred…
[/quote]
I think there are plenty of situations where someone prefering functional training makes sense. A football player who trains squats and olympic lifts over leg presses and quad extentions (on the grounds that the former lifts have more functional carryover to his sport) or someone who makes progress doing dips and chins/pullups instead of bench/pulldowns (because they think dips and chins mimick natural movement patterns better).
And what about injury prevention and things of that nature? External rotations, one legged squats, wall slides, mobility work, stretching, GPP, stuff like that.
What if someone decides to do overhead presses because they feel those are better than bench presses for shoulder health (and, thus, more “functional”)?
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Hanley wrote:
But anyone who trains to be “functional” usually doesn’t have all to tight a grasp on reality or the ability to go thru a logical thought process, so that might explain why overheads are preferred…
I think there are plenty of situations where someone prefering functional training makes sense. A football player who trains squats and olympic lifts over leg presses and quad extentions (on the grounds that the former lifts have more functional carryover to his sport) or someone who makes progress doing dips and chins/pullups instead of bench/pulldowns (because they think dips and chins mimick natural movement patterns better).
And what about injury prevention and things of that nature? External rotations, one legged squats, wall slides, mobility work, stretching, GPP, stuff like that.
What if someone decides to do overhead presses because they feel those are better than bench presses for shoulder health (and, thus, more “functional”)?
[/quote]
Well duh shit. Way to take everything I said TOTALLY out of context.
A deadlift is no more functional to a squat for the average guy on the street. Just as a bench press is no more functional than a military press. They’re just not situations the regular Joe’s are going to come across.
OF COURSE all of this changes for an athlete.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Hanley wrote:
But anyone who trains to be “functional” usually doesn’t have all to tight a grasp on reality or the ability to go thru a logical thought process, so that might explain why overheads are preferred…
I think there are plenty of situations where someone prefering functional training makes sense. A football player who trains squats and olympic lifts over leg presses and quad extentions (on the grounds that the former lifts have more functional carryover to his sport) or someone who makes progress doing dips and chins/pullups instead of bench/pulldowns (because they think dips and chins mimick natural movement patterns better).
And what about injury prevention and things of that nature? External rotations, one legged squats, wall slides, mobility work, stretching, GPP, stuff like that.
What if someone decides to do overhead presses because they feel those are better than bench presses for shoulder health (and, thus, more “functional”)?
Well duh shit. Way to take everything I said TOTALLY out of context.
A deadlift is no more functional to a squat for the average guy on the street. Just as a bench press is no more functional than a military press. They’re just not situations the regular Joe’s are going to come across.
OF COURSE all of this changes for an athlete.
[/quote]
Ok. So why then is it assumed that the second anyone mentions the word “functional”, it’s assumed they do 5lb lateral raises while kneeling on a swiss ball? Or that “They’re just making excuses to be small and weak”?
I think the average lifter (and any lifter, really) should consider injury prevention to be important, and I tend to think of functional as being related to preventing injuries.
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
dfreezy wrote:
FortDodge wrote: Regardless of what anyone says its not normal nor chiropractically healthy to squat to or below parallel w/ a heavy weight on your shoulders.
Modern kinesiologists and exercise physiologists beg to differ and I’m fairly certain they’re a bit more knowledgeable than you in that area. Your statement is quite the contrary actually- regardless of what anyone has said, it has yet to be proven that it is unhealthy to squat to or below parallel with proper form.
Just because your knees hurt or you’re not capable of squatting properly doesn’t mean they’re bad for everyone else.
Are you sure?
Just because they think you should be able to squat down to rock bottom doesn’t mean they think you should be going that low with, double body weight+ on your back all the time.[/quote]
you have no idea what your talking about if you think you should be squatting above parallel vs. atg and parallel.
Also everyone bashing an exercise because of an injury they got is ridiculous, your GOING to get injured lifting heavy weight eventually its part of the game. It might be more serious then others, but injuries will happen.
[quote]shizen wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
dfreezy wrote:
FortDodge wrote: Regardless of what anyone says its not normal nor chiropractically healthy to squat to or below parallel w/ a heavy weight on your shoulders.
Modern kinesiologists and exercise physiologists beg to differ and I’m fairly certain they’re a bit more knowledgeable than you in that area. Your statement is quite the contrary actually- regardless of what anyone has said, it has yet to be proven that it is unhealthy to squat to or below parallel with proper form.
Just because your knees hurt or you’re not capable of squatting properly doesn’t mean they’re bad for everyone else.
Are you sure?
Just because they think you should be able to squat down to rock bottom doesn’t mean they think you should be going that low with, double body weight+ on your back all the time.
you have no idea what your talking about if you think you should be squatting above parallel vs. atg and parallel.
Also everyone bashing an exercise because of an injury they got is ridiculous, your GOING to get injured lifting heavy weight eventually its part of the game. It might be more serious then others, but injuries will happen.
[/quote]
Full squats have never proven to be detrimental to the knees…
Edit: I see now you mean detrimental to the whole body…well, I’m curious if you could present some studies?
Id learn to do front squats if your worried about spinal injuries.
[quote]shizen wrote: your GOING to get injured lifting heavy weight eventually its part of the game. It might be more serious then others, but injuries will happen.
[/quote]
I disagree with this, and think it’s a bad attitude to have.
<-----So does Brittany. She’s looking at you like, “Say what?”
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Hanley wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Hanley wrote:
But anyone who trains to be “functional” usually doesn’t have all to tight a grasp on reality or the ability to go thru a logical thought process, so that might explain why overheads are preferred…
I think there are plenty of situations where someone prefering functional training makes sense. A football player who trains squats and olympic lifts over leg presses and quad extentions (on the grounds that the former lifts have more functional carryover to his sport) or someone who makes progress doing dips and chins/pullups instead of bench/pulldowns (because they think dips and chins mimick natural movement patterns better).
And what about injury prevention and things of that nature? External rotations, one legged squats, wall slides, mobility work, stretching, GPP, stuff like that.
What if someone decides to do overhead presses because they feel those are better than bench presses for shoulder health (and, thus, more “functional”)?
Well duh shit. Way to take everything I said TOTALLY out of context.
A deadlift is no more functional to a squat for the average guy on the street. Just as a bench press is no more functional than a military press. They’re just not situations the regular Joe’s are going to come across.
OF COURSE all of this changes for an athlete.
Ok. So why then is it assumed that the second anyone mentions the word “functional”, it’s assumed they do 5lb lateral raises while kneeling on a swiss ball? Or that “They’re just making excuses to be small and weak”?
I think the average lifter (and any lifter, really) should consider injury prevention to be important, and I tend to think of functional as being related to preventing injuries.[/quote]
Because most people don’t have a freaking clue what “functional” means. It’s used as black and white - “this exercise is functional. that exercise is not functional.” People ignore the fact that exercises, entire PROGRAMS can be functional for one person and not for another. Hell, the same exercise can be functional for someone at one point in time, but not at another. If you can take, say, a football player who’s squatting 400 and get him up to a 500 lb squatter AND IT IMPROVES HIS PLAY, then that exercise is functional. If he goes from squatting 500 to squatting 600, and his play doesnt improve, how is that an example of functional strength? Why are you going to waste the time to try to get him to 650, or whatever.
Where it gets really fun is where things that are completely unquantifiable - for either side in teh debate - like injury prevention, confidence, etc, are brought into the debate.
Trying to get back to the essence of OP posts, as opposed to functional arguments and squats v. deadlift arguments and which is better bla bla bla…
The OP, and others so afflicted, might consider that there are a myriad of bodytypes, most notably the relative length of your levers to torso, etc. And, there are many variants of the squat. Perhaps you are trying to bang a round peg into a square hole.
Find a style of squat that doesn’t compromise your body type and work it. Unless you’re a PL, I see no reason to be bound by a certain squatting style. Find what works without causing you pain, and use it. Whatever relative weakness to the particular squatting style works for you, address that with other movements.
If for some reason you simply cannot medically squat, well then of course, you simply cannot squat and you must choose other movements.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Trying to get back to the essence of OP posts, as opposed to functional arguments and squats v. deadlift arguments and which is better bla bla bla…
The OP, and others so afflicted, might consider that there are a myriad of bodytypes, most notably the relative length of your levers to torso, etc. And, there are many variants of the squat. Perhaps you are trying to bang a round peg into a square hole.
Find a style of squat that doesn’t compromise your body type and work it. Unless you’re a PL, I see no reason to be bound by a certain squatting style. Find what works without causing you pain, and use it. Whatever relative weakness to the particular squatting style works for you, address that with other movements.
If for some reason you simply cannot medically squat, well then of course, you simply cannot squat and you must choose other movements.[/quote]
Lets not try to avert the thread hijack now, it’s already well under way
Somone mentioned that injuries are inevitable?
Dead right they are. You can train intelligently but if you put enough work in and push your body to the limts year after year, then there is a high probablity that you will be injured at some point. A serious athlete will at times take their body to the edge of what they are physically capable of. In this ares shit can, and almost certanly will, happen at some point.
Hell, even an exercise done with perfect technique can cause accumilitive strain type injuries.
If you have never been injured you have simply not been pushing hard enough at your chosen athletic endevour or are very very lucky indeed!
As per the topic. Neither squat or deadlift are any better than the other. Neither are we designed to do heavy sq/dl week in week out. We are designed as forgers and endurnace hunters following and tracking prey and taking them out at distance.
I love deadlifting but I think sometimes squating takes more balls! You can drop a deadlift, in the hole of a pb squat atempt it feels a whole lot different!
[quote]IainK wrote:
I love deadlifting but I think sometimes squating takes more balls! You can drop a deadlift, in the hole of a pb squat atempt it feels a whole lot different![/quote]
QFT.
Squat’s are a total mind fuck. You either get the weight or it gets you… there’s no two ways about it really. I’m quite happy to grind out long deadlifts all day… but even relatively near max squat triples and singles KILL me.
It only gets worse when you start wearing equipment. I was going triples yesterday in a new suit, not only were my legs numb, but as I tried to sink into the hole the starps started to cut off circulation to my head and when I came out of the third rep the room was spinning!
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
If we can get back to the “Squat vs Deadlift” debate just recently I think CT stated that the Snatch-Grip Platform Deadlift was THE best lower body exercise, period.
While I’ve tried these in the past, I don’t think I gave them a fair trial because I always did them after squatting. But I think I’m going to give them another go because I continue to be weak off the floor in the Deadlift even as my Squat goes up.
[/quote]
I didn’t understand his comment at all. The loads with a snatch grip deadlift are so limited I don’t see how it can compare to a squat or traditional deadlift. I think the extra upper body effort required may make it a better total body lift for some (not me).
[quote]shizen wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
dfreezy wrote:
FortDodge wrote: Regardless of what anyone says its not normal nor chiropractically healthy to squat to or below parallel w/ a heavy weight on your shoulders.
Modern kinesiologists and exercise physiologists beg to differ and I’m fairly certain they’re a bit more knowledgeable than you in that area. Your statement is quite the contrary actually- regardless of what anyone has said, it has yet to be proven that it is unhealthy to squat to or below parallel with proper form.
Just because your knees hurt or you’re not capable of squatting properly doesn’t mean they’re bad for everyone else.
Are you sure?
Just because they think you should be able to squat down to rock bottom doesn’t mean they think you should be going that low with, double body weight+ on your back all the time.
you have no idea what your talking about if you think you should be squatting above parallel vs. atg and parallel.
Also everyone bashing an exercise because of an injury they got is ridiculous, your GOING to get injured lifting heavy weight eventually its part of the game. It might be more serious then others, but injuries will happen.
[/quote]
What is wrong w/ partial rep squats above parallel? I am thinking of mixing them in. The loads are much higher. It sems a legit technique as long as you still do full range of motion at other times.
I think it has to do with the fact that you are UNDER the weight in the squat, its scary as fcuk going into the hole sometimes.
Ive never had much of a problem with it, I only get nervous doing clean and jerks. But squatting heavy going for say, a new 1 rep max can sometimes be quite daunting.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
If we can get back to the “Squat vs Deadlift” debate just recently I think CT stated that the Snatch-Grip Platform Deadlift was THE best lower body exercise, period.
While I’ve tried these in the past, I don’t think I gave them a fair trial because I always did them after squatting. But I think I’m going to give them another go because I continue to be weak off the floor in the Deadlift even as my Squat goes up.
I didn’t understand his comment at all. The loads with a snatch grip deadlift are so limited I don’t see how it can compare to a squat or traditional deadlift. I think the extra upper body effort required may make it a better total body lift for some (not me).
[/quote]
We shall see. If I feel like I’m using a ton of upper-body effort to make the lift and I’m not taxing my legs then I’ll drop it.
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
If we can get back to the “Squat vs Deadlift” debate just recently I think CT stated that the Snatch-Grip Platform Deadlift was THE best lower body exercise, period.
While I’ve tried these in the past, I don’t think I gave them a fair trial because I always did them after squatting. But I think I’m going to give them another go because I continue to be weak off the floor in the Deadlift even as my Squat goes up.
I didn’t understand his comment at all. The loads with a snatch grip deadlift are so limited I don’t see how it can compare to a squat or traditional deadlift. I think the extra upper body effort required may make it a better total body lift for some (not me).
We shall see. If I feel like I’m using a ton of upper-body effort to make the lift and I’m not taxing my legs then I’ll drop it.
[/quote]
Be sure to give feedback. I had problems mostly due to grip. It was a tiring full body exercise but I never felt like I was frying my legs. I think I stuck with it for 6 weeks and lost strength when I went back to traditional deadlifts. Perhaps if I would have used straps I could have gotten the full benefit.
Everytime this subject is brought up people always say how CT and CP think it is great. I would like some positive feedback from people that have done it and maybe I will try it with straps.
I feel like I am missing out.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
If we can get back to the “Squat vs Deadlift” debate just recently I think CT stated that the Snatch-Grip Platform Deadlift was THE best lower body exercise, period.
While I’ve tried these in the past, I don’t think I gave them a fair trial because I always did them after squatting. But I think I’m going to give them another go because I continue to be weak off the floor in the Deadlift even as my Squat goes up.
I didn’t understand his comment at all. The loads with a snatch grip deadlift are so limited I don’t see how it can compare to a squat or traditional deadlift. I think the extra upper body effort required may make it a better total body lift for some (not me).
We shall see. If I feel like I’m using a ton of upper-body effort to make the lift and I’m not taxing my legs then I’ll drop it.
Be sure to give feedback. I had problems mostly due to grip. It was a tiring full body exercise but I never felt like I was frying my legs. I think I stuck with it for 6 weeks and lost strength when I went back to traditional deadlifts. Perhaps if I would have used straps I could have gotten the full benefit.
Everytime this subject is brought up people always say how CT and CP think it is great. I would like some positive feedback from people that have done it and maybe I will try it with straps.
I feel like I am missing out.[/quote]
It could have had something to do simply with having your hands out that far. Would there be any way to recreate the ROM while still having your hands in the same place as a traditional deadlift? The first thing that comes to mind for me is trap bar deads from a box, which may be easier on the upper body, but would be different from a regular pull.
The other problem being that a platform could only go so high under a regular bar… perhaps if the bar was just slightly in front of the platform? Or maybe a cambered bar (not sure how wide the dip in those is) starting out convex? The only thing with that is it would probably have to be reset with each rep. I dunno, just some thoughts.
Do Both if you can. if an injury prevents you from squating but not deadlifting, then i guess your only option is deadlift. as far as functional movments go, they are both very functional in moving heavy weight on a barbell if that is the function. with this view, deadlift would be more functional because you can use heavier weight. thats my opinon.
if the goal is to lift the heaviest amount of weight and to use the most muscle possible or to put the muscles used in the best position, the dead beats the squat. however for me the range of motion in a squat is greater than the ROM in the dead… soooo if the function is to lift the most amount of weight throughout the largest ROM… fuck, i give up! DO BOTH!