Deadlift Starting Position

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
I dont get why people keep acting like I said leverages dont matter at all. I’ll say it again that I dont think the difference is nearly as significant in terms of the lifts as people think they are. If a guy benches 600 with T rex arms then everyone says well its because he has short arms. However there are many guys with short arms that cant bench worth shit, and then leverages arent brought up. As i said, I think they make a minor difference in practical application, perhaps 5-15lbs, but people use leverages as a last resort to explain how its possible for someone to have such an outstanding lift. I never said it makes no difference, its just a minor detail in the grand scheme of what makes a lifter excel in my eyes. I know there is a good chance that I may be wrong as it is merely an inferrence. But I have yet to really see solid evidence otherwise. Basic physiscs gives us grounds for a theory, but in practice the body is so complicated that there are too many factors to know 100% that theory and practice are in line with one another with lifting.

But I didnt start this thread to deabte about leverages, I just want to know where other lifters with big deadlifts have the bar relative to their feet for the conventional deadlift. So is on your shins, midway on your foot, or lined up with your toes the best way to pull for you guys in your experience?[/quote]

When you say leverages only affect a lift 5-15 lbs that is essentially saying they don’t matter. Again, many people do indeed use poor leverages as an excuse, but the absolute best at certain lifts and the very few that have had records stand the test of time such as Ed Coan do indeed have a huge mechanical advantage. I don’t think anyone has come within 50 lbs of some of his deadlift records. You can’t say steroid use is the reason why considering so many use that and higher quality stuff versus what they used back then. Again, look through history, and look through the world records (tested or untested) and find the ones that are still around from the 70’s/80’s/90’s and I can almost guarantee you those are people that had mechanical advantages that is why they have stood the test of time. You can only look at the elite echelons because you can assume all things are relatively equal with a minimal variance at the elite level, i.e. technique is solid, strength is the same, etc. That’s why you don’t see many world records just absolutely shattered - everyone is doing the things they should be doing and everyone is working hard. It’s those genetic gifts that set apart the legends from the greats.

As far as foot position I always go with bar on the shins it but the angle at which my shins are touching the bar changes. I find that when they’re not straight perpindicular I tend to have a bit more speed off the floor.[/quote]

Go and look at photos of Lamar Grant OP.

42

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
I wish I had my recent vid of me doing 505 x only 1.5 because the bar just falls away from me. And that is the problem. I looked at the vid and the first rep of 505 is real easy, then its like I lose my balance sometimes and get jolted forward. I think back tightness, pulling backwards rather than up, and starting with the bar a bit forward may help
[/quote]

your problem sounds straightforward.

when you deadlift, you need the pull the bar into your body the whole time and imagine yourself falling backwards (don’t mean with a huge hyper extension at the top).

that’s honestly it. don’t just pull the bar up in a straight line. that’s why you are losing the weight, you need to pull the weight into you as well. but also, not everything is a direct correlation with the squat, as they are obviously still different lifts. not saying you do, but many people think of the DL as a squat with the bar in your hands, which it isn’t at all.

you could also be lacking upper back strength, as you should still be able to muscle up a weight like 510, which is not that heavy, especially compared to your squat.

43

My DL started to suck (stuck in mid 4s for a looong time, though havent focused on it too much) and stopped correlating to my squat after I focused on ATG oly style. I can ATG squat close to my max DL right now, and my quads are getting strong as shit, but the rest needs work. Maybe thats you, too.

My latest stab at what could help me is to start doing 3/5/1 for DL and lots of GHRs, but the effect of that approach is TBD. I am also learning the oly lifts right now 2-3x/wk, so it is just a clusterfuck of squats and pulls that will hopefully have some kind of effect which I wont be able to attribute to any one thing haha.

44

If you guys dont mind can you tell me where you place the bar at the starting position relative to your feet?

45

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
If you guys dont mind can you tell me where you place the bar at the starting position relative to your feet?[/quote]

lol it’s not going to add 100lbs dude.

did you read my above post?

i imagine everyone starts a DL with the bar very close or touching their body, any other way is inefficient and makes no sense, by putting unnecessary strain on the low back.

i would say the bar is between mid foot and leg for me.

46

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
If you guys dont mind can you tell me where you place the bar at the starting position relative to your feet?[/quote]

I don’t pay attention to where the bar is in relation to my feet, but rather to my shins. It’s probably right around the top laces of my shoes.

47

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
If you guys dont mind can you tell me where you place the bar at the starting position relative to your feet?[/quote]

lol it’s not going to add 100lbs dude.

did you read my above post?

i imagine everyone starts a DL with the bar very close or touching their body, any other way is inefficient and makes no sense, by putting unnecessary strain on the low back.

i would say the bar is between mid foot and leg for me.[/quote]

I am not concerned about getting 100lbs added to my dl. I dont get why some here are so attatched to me mentioning 600lbs. That was an arbitrary number thrown out to emphasize that I am not getting the most out of my dl. That is all. I am not fixated on any specific weight right now, I am focused on getting my form better

Yes I read what you posted and it was good advice but I already heard that and just want now info on the bar placement. And thank you for then answering, that is all I want to know now is where others place the bar at the start of the pull

48

[quote]mmatt wrote:

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
If you guys dont mind can you tell me where you place the bar at the starting position relative to your feet?[/quote]

I don’t pay attention to where the bar is in relation to my feet, but rather to my shins. It’s probably right around the top laces of my shoes.[/quote]

Hmmm ok thanks for the info man, really appretiate it

49

I pull conventional and have short arms, so when I pull, to get my ass below my shoulders, I have to shove my ass down and have a large bend in the knees. This activates my quads a lot more than my hamstrings, so I have to pull back a lot more than I would if my arms were long.

So my setup goes like this: I put the bar in the middle of my foot, get my legs at the right angle, force my back straight, fill my gut with air, and just before I pull the bar back/up, I thrust my knees forward and butt down to force myself into position.

50

[quote]louiek wrote:
I pull conventional and have short arms, so when I pull, to get my ass below my shoulders, I have to shove my ass down and have a large bend in the knees. This activates my quads a lot more than my hamstrings, so I have to pull back a lot more than I would if my arms were long.

So my setup goes like this: I put the bar in the middle of my foot, get my legs at the right angle, force my back straight, fill my gut with air, and just before I pull the bar back/up, I thrust my knees forward and butt down to force myself into position.[/quote]

Now thats the best responce yet, thanks for the specific info. It does seem like most people start the bar in the middle of their foot for conventional. Thats interesting that you get your legs lower almost in a squat it sounds. Do you find that this helps the start of the lift or the end more? From what I have seen it appears that people who start with more of a squat stance have a hard time breaking the floor, and then when they do the bar shoots up since their legs and back are in sync locking out at the same time. I personally have switched from doing this to pulling with higher hips, but I never pulled back, just up. So i really was bad with just squatting it up. Maybe low hips but pulling back could be a good mix of using legs but not just squatting hmmm

51

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:

[quote]louiek wrote:
I pull conventional and have short arms, so when I pull, to get my ass below my shoulders, I have to shove my ass down and have a large bend in the knees. This activates my quads a lot more than my hamstrings, so I have to pull back a lot more than I would if my arms were long.

So my setup goes like this: I put the bar in the middle of my foot, get my legs at the right angle, force my back straight, fill my gut with air, and just before I pull the bar back/up, I thrust my knees forward and butt down to force myself into position.[/quote]

Now thats the best responce yet, thanks for the specific info. It does seem like most people start the bar in the middle of their foot for conventional. Thats interesting that you get your legs lower almost in a squat it sounds. Do you find that this helps the start of the lift or the end more? From what I have seen it appears that people who start with more of a squat stance have a hard time breaking the floor, and then when they do the bar shoots up since their legs and back are in sync locking out at the same time. I personally have switched from doing this to pulling with higher hips, but I never pulled back, just up. So i really was bad with just squatting it up. Maybe low hips but pulling back could be a good mix of using legs but not just squatting hmmm[/quote]

Never lost a deadlift of any kind at the top. Not even close. Once it’s off the floor, I’m locking that shit out. The inability to get my chest up and ass down is what stops me from achieving proper mechanics. If my arms were 3" longer, my pull would be more because I’d get my legs in a good position. When I look on video, my conv. deadlift looks like the first pull in a clean, even though the height of my ass/chest is right where it should be.

I believe proper form is achieved when all muscles fire. Using quads to initiate and hamstring to pull and low back to lock out might work, but in getting all muscles to work at the same time, the pull is stronger. I can achieve a pull with all muscle firing, but, again, my hips are higher than they should and my low back does more work than it should. Just something I have to work with.

Currently, I’m focusing on low back and it has improved my deadlift speed and strength. This is most likely because my lower back is utilized most in picking shit up.

Unless you feel better pulling another way, I would stay with how you pull now. Or pull a max and see what you look like, then adjust from there.

52

Just missed a 445 deadlift at my knees. I feel like I have to rethink my whole life now. Lol.

53

[quote]louiek wrote:
Just missed a 445 deadlift at my knees. I feel like I have to rethink my whole life now. Lol.[/quote]
LOL

54

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]louiek wrote:
Just missed a 445 deadlift at my knees. I feel like I have to rethink my whole life now. Lol.[/quote]
LOL[/quote]

Sad part is that’s really how I felt when I sat down and watched the video.

55

Haha that actually looks like a good pull man, looks like you need to learn to grind through lifts.

56

[quote]vali wrote:
Haha that actually looks like a good pull man, looks like you need to learn to grind through lifts.[/quote]

I actually got 425 before that and my legs were shaking. I decided, fuck it, added 20 instead of just 10 (like a smart person would do) and then hit it. I was pulling and pulling and I got to that point where I was like “I’m gonna make it” and then a second later the bar just STOPPED and I knew it wasn’t going anywhere without hitching. My legs may have gotten out of position by like 10 degrees as well. I’ll have 455 next time, I know that much.

Felt that shit in my quads too. Like I said, pulling heavy I now realize how much my pull has changed since I last pulled a max.

57

425lbs.

58

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
If you guys dont mind can you tell me where you place the bar at the starting position relative to your feet?[/quote]

lol it’s not going to add 100lbs dude.

did you read my above post?

i imagine everyone starts a DL with the bar very close or touching their body, any other way is inefficient and makes no sense, by putting unnecessary strain on the low back.
[/quote]

I disagree. I start with the bar further out. By doing that, I’m able to pull back rather than up by rolling the bar a bit. When I had the bar closer to me, there was more of a likelihood the bar would drift out in front of me creating the inefficiency you mentioned. This has helped quite a bit with my speed off the floor.

I wouldn’t suggest it for everyone but that change in set up has worked well for me.

59

[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
If you guys dont mind can you tell me where you place the bar at the starting position relative to your feet?[/quote]

lol it’s not going to add 100lbs dude.

did you read my above post?

i imagine everyone starts a DL with the bar very close or touching their body, any other way is inefficient and makes no sense, by putting unnecessary strain on the low back.
[/quote]

I disagree. I start with the bar further out. By doing that, I’m able to pull back rather than up by rolling the bar a bit. When I had the bar closer to me, there was more of a likelihood the bar would drift out in front of me creating the inefficiency you mentioned. This has helped quite a bit with my speed off the floor.

I wouldn’t suggest it for everyone but that change in set up has worked well for me.
[/quote]

But by the time the bar leaves the ground, is it over your mid-foot?

60

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
If you guys dont mind can you tell me where you place the bar at the starting position relative to your feet?[/quote]

lol it’s not going to add 100lbs dude.

did you read my above post?

i imagine everyone starts a DL with the bar very close or touching their body, any other way is inefficient and makes no sense, by putting unnecessary strain on the low back.
[/quote]

I disagree. I start with the bar further out. By doing that, I’m able to pull back rather than up by rolling the bar a bit. When I had the bar closer to me, there was more of a likelihood the bar would drift out in front of me creating the inefficiency you mentioned. This has helped quite a bit with my speed off the floor.

I wouldn’t suggest it for everyone but that change in set up has worked well for me.
[/quote]

But by the time the bar leaves the ground, is it over your mid-foot?[/quote]

Yes it likely is. However, the actual starting point if further out. It certainly doesn’t travel in a straight line.