Hey guys, I am really struggling to find the most efficient bar placement at the start of the deadlift. I always used to go with just having the bar right in the middle of my foot, but have seen some people say place it farther out near your toes.
The reason I ask is that I have a much better squat than deadlift, and see guys deadlifting 600 that I feel I am stronger than in terms of the muscles used in the deadlift. Despite having a solid squat, I stuggle often with getting the weight off the ground more than any other part of the lift. And often when I do get it off the ground, the bar strays forward and I lose it. But whenever I get the bar off the ground, and keep it closer to my body, the lift shoots up. I am thinking that if I start with the bar farther out, I can use my quads more at the start, and pull back on the lift rather than just pulling upward, as right now its almost like I’m squatting the weight up if that makes sense.
So I’m asking where do you place the bar at the start of the lift? And also if anyone here has extensive knowlege or a link that explains which way is best, I would greatly appretiate it
I pull conventional with a fairly close stance. I have the bar right up against my shins. Closer stance = more hamstrings and pop off the floor. At least that’s what I’ve discovered in my time training. I have no problem with lockout or grip, just getting it off the floor.
[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
I pull conventional with a fairly close stance. I have the bar right up against my shins. Closer stance = more hamstrings and pop off the floor. At least that’s what I’ve discovered in my time training. I have no problem with lockout or grip, just getting it off the floor.
CS[/quote]
Ok. So since the start is your hardest part, do you feel like if you change around your positioning at the start that you will be able to make the lockout your limiting factor? Because it seems like the lockout is the hardest part for most, so I am wondering if the start is the limiting part of the lift that it means there is something wrong with form. Or do you think its just your natural weakpoint?
I feel comfortable with the width of my feet right now, but its just how close the bar is thats driving me a bit crazy. Have you ever tried having the bar farther away from your chins? And thank you for helping out by responding, this is a big issue I need to resolve before raw nats. My dl is my technical weakpoint without a doubt
It might be helpful to post a video of your form. It could also be that you just have less-favorable leverages for the deadlift. What kind of weight are you pulling?
Story of my life… On a side note, I wouldnt recommend starting with the bar farther forward than mid foot. Having the bar that far out in front of you is bio mechanically inefficient. The farther the bar is away from the midline of the body the ‘heavier’ the weight is. Having the bar out front that far puts your lower back in a vulnerable position and is likely going to make the lockout more difficult. A video of your current setup would help too.
PS I contemplated helping you knowing your involved in the deadlift challenge… haha just kidding. But not really.
[quote]frankjl wrote:
It might be helpful to post a video of your form. It could also be that you just have less-favorable leverages for the deadlift. What kind of weight are you pulling?[/quote]
well here is when I did my best set. I havent done more than this since, and it was a couple month if not more ago. I think my form was better here than it is now, because this was a stand out set for me. I have done 505 x 3 pretty smooth recently, then next set I did 505 and only got 1 and had to drop the 2nd due to the bar falling away from me. To be honest, I dont care about leverages, I dont think they mean much. My brother is 5’9.5" and has a 6’3" wingspan and benches 340 at 170 yet cant deadlift much despite what his leverages dictate. I think that part is true to a minor extent maybe 5lbs difference but is 99% mental. I actually just noticed that I start with the bar out farther a bit here than in the vids i struggle on, so maybe this is the key
[quote]CSEagles1694 wrote:
I pull conventional with a fairly close stance. I have the bar right up against my shins. Closer stance = more hamstrings and pop off the floor. At least that’s what I’ve discovered in my time training. I have no problem with lockout or grip, just getting it off the floor.
CS[/quote]
Ok. So since the start is your hardest part, do you feel like if you change around your positioning at the start that you will be able to make the lockout your limiting factor? Because it seems like the lockout is the hardest part for most, so I am wondering if the start is the limiting part of the lift that it means there is something wrong with form. Or do you think its just your natural weakpoint?[/quote]
For me, 99% of my deadlift problems have been technical. Always have been. I have changed my stance around a lot and played with foot position as well, trying to find the optimal starting point. If I can get to mid-shin, then I can lock it out. Even with moving my stance in, I have no problems with it at lockout.
If the start is your weak point, as is mine, then there is something technically wrong with your deadlift. For me, it’s not keeping my butt back and driving with my quads.
The video pulls look really good, but you said these are some of your best so that makes sense haha.
I’m a lot weaker than you, so take my advice with a grain of salt… but you say you have some trouble keeping the weight in tight, and that when you DO keep it in tight, the reps are a lot easier. That tells me you need as much back as you can get. Matt Kroc experimented with Kroc rows specifically to help out his deadlift. So while that might not be the biggest problem, it might help.
Also, breaking the weight from the floor was and is my weakest part of the lift… I’ve found that adding speed work from a deficit helped with this. If I can pull weight fast from that shittier position, I know I’ll be able to pull it when the bar is a few inches higher. Maybe play around with deficits and/or speed work. Worked really well for me.
[quote]N.K. wrote:
The video pulls look really good, but you said these are some of your best so that makes sense haha.
I’m a lot weaker than you, so take my advice with a grain of salt… but you say you have some trouble keeping the weight in tight, and that when you DO keep it in tight, the reps are a lot easier. That tells me you need as much back as you can get. Matt Kroc experimented with Kroc rows specifically to help out his deadlift. So while that might not be the biggest problem, it might help.
Also, breaking the weight from the floor was and is my weakest part of the lift… I’ve found that adding speed work from a deficit helped with this. If I can pull weight fast from that shittier position, I know I’ll be able to pull it when the bar is a few inches higher. Maybe play around with deficits and/or speed work. Worked really well for me. [/quote]
Thanks yeah sorry I dont have any footage of my bad days, but my ego does not allow me to post such things on youtube haha. But seriously, thank you for the observation about tightness. I was actually just thinking that on my missed rep last workout, I remember that the bar got away from me in a way that seems like if I tighten my upper back/lats, that I could prevent that. I have thought about doing deficit deadlifts, I may start doing them at least to warm up as the immediate psychological effect may help when switching to shoeless low to the ground style.
I have always done db rows for the most part, but I will definately put more emphasis on them. I have been doing pulldowns lately and have always been on and off switching between the two, for now I will see if really going extra hard on them will help. I got up to 120 x 6 before at school and that was the heaviest db so I kinda stopped after that lol. But now my gym during the summer has some heavy ass dumbells that are unmarked, but I believe they are 130-140 so I’ll work on getting those up. When I do them I do use really strict for btw, so idk if they are “kroc rows” as I know those are typically super heavy and less strict form. But I dont have the resources for those and like being a bit more in control of the weight.
Thanks alot for the feedback. and btw, where do you place the bar at the start of your deadlift. I dont want this forum just to be about me. I really want to hear what others prefer and have learned through their experiences
I used to do stricter dumbell rows and personally, doing them heavy for lots of reps with shitty form has made my lats and back grow more and get stronger than any strict stuff I did. The heaviest dumbell I have is a 110, but I’ll row it for like 35 reps each side, to complete failure. I would definitely suggest playing around with doing 20-40 rep sets to failure, even if your form isn’t anywhere near perfect haha. But If you definitely feel better with stricter rows, than just keep at them.
Personally, I setup with the bar similar to where your bar is in the video - very much my mid - foot. I can’t say exactly where it is, I just make sure it’s right up against my shins, and that my weight is in my mid foot/heels.
Again, deficit deads helped me a lot with the “feeling out” process, so now I don’t think so much about where to start with the bar, I can just feel what position is best. By changing the deficit, you will have to start with your hips lower and your shins more forward, so instead of worrying so much about where the bar is over your foot, you will just have to feel out what position makes it easiest to pull. The actual bar position will change based on deficit height, but there will be carryover in your ability to feel out where the bar should be.
Know that second part is a little vague haha but it’s the best I can do. Like a lot of things in lifting, you’ve gotta find the right form for you. And deficit pulls definitely helped me feel that out for myself.
[quote]frankjl wrote:
It might be helpful to post a video of your form. It could also be that you just have less-favorable leverages for the deadlift. What kind of weight are you pulling?[/quote]
well here is when I did my best set. I havent done more than this since, and it was a couple month if not more ago. I think my form was better here than it is now, because this was a stand out set for me. I have done 505 x 3 pretty smooth recently, then next set I did 505 and only got 1 and had to drop the 2nd due to the bar falling away from me. To be honest, I dont care about leverages, I dont think they mean much. My brother is 5’9.5" and has a 6’3" wingspan and benches 340 at 170 yet cant deadlift much despite what his leverages dictate. I think that part is true to a minor extent maybe 5lbs difference but is 99% mental. I actually just noticed that I start with the bar out farther a bit here than in the vids i struggle on, so maybe this is the key
[/quote]
Well, your anecdotal evidence about your brother’s incredible bench press has convinced me that “leverages” are just a fancy word for being weak. That being said, that’s a pretty good pull and I didn’t see anything worth commenting about.
[quote]frankjl wrote:
It might be helpful to post a video of your form. It could also be that you just have less-favorable leverages for the deadlift. What kind of weight are you pulling?[/quote]
well here is when I did my best set. I havent done more than this since, and it was a couple month if not more ago. I think my form was better here than it is now, because this was a stand out set for me. I have done 505 x 3 pretty smooth recently, then next set I did 505 and only got 1 and had to drop the 2nd due to the bar falling away from me. To be honest, I dont care about leverages, I dont think they mean much. My brother is 5’9.5" and has a 6’3" wingspan and benches 340 at 170 yet cant deadlift much despite what his leverages dictate. I think that part is true to a minor extent maybe 5lbs difference but is 99% mental. I actually just noticed that I start with the bar out farther a bit here than in the vids i struggle on, so maybe this is the key
[/quote]
Well, your anecdotal evidence about your brother’s incredible bench press has convinced me that “leverages” are just a fancy word for being weak. That being said, that’s a pretty good pull and I didn’t see anything worth commenting about.[/quote]
Thanks but the point bringing up my brother is that people only care about leverages when it matches their lifts. They have a weak lift, then check their wingspan and say “oh thats why, well im fucked”. And then they have their reason/excuse in their mind for the rest of their life. When the leverages and lifts dont match THEN they disregard its importance. As i said, I’m sure the reality is somewhere in the middle. Most likely a minor difference, maybe a 5-10lbs difference if you have longer arms for deadlifting. There are tons of factors that are huge with why certain lifts excel, leverages are not high on that list at least not in my mind
But its all opinion. There is no way to know the truth for certain. But I know I have the ability to deadlift 600 with what I have right now. I’m just trying to get the technique down so that knowlege becomes a reality
I’m certainly nowhere near your numbers, however my 2 cents is that your foot placement looks fine, but if you work to push your shins forward with the glutes and hammies so that you close the distance between your shins and the bar, you put those muscles under more tension. The extra spring might help you off the floor.
[quote]BigJc wrote:
I’m certainly nowhere near your numbers, however my 2 cents is that your foot placement looks fine, but if you work to push your shins forward with the glutes and hammies so that you close the distance between your shins and the bar, you put those muscles under more tension. The extra spring might help you off the floor. [/quote]
Thanks for the input and I’m glad you brought that up. That is one of my thoughts that keep going back and forth. I think one one hand, if I lower myself by bending more at the knees that I can get low enough to grip the bar, with my hips still higher up and back not bend over as much. However, the only problem when I try emphasising this is that it becomes harder to utilize the hips and just find that overall the power isnt the same. I may have been pulling too much up rather than back toward my body though, I will definately give this a try again thursday my next dl session. I really appretiate the input as it is nice to know some of the things I am trying actually make sense to other people haha
You could try falling back a bit more with the weight (obviously not so much that you go arse over tit). I have a very similar stance to yours and I’ve found that pulling back a bit and taking the slack out of the bar really helps pop it up. I guess partly because you can keep it in close without transferring weight to your heels.
Your pull looks just fine. If you can squat more than you pull, it might be your squat depth that needs adressing. Got a squat video?
Also, regarding the leverage thing; a basic introduction to classical mechanics will help you grasp the issues.
[quote]BHG wrote:
Your pull looks just fine. If you can squat more than you pull, it might be your squat depth that needs adressing. Got a squat video?
Also, regarding the leverage thing; a basic introduction to classical mechanics will help you grasp the issues.
Good luck[/quote]
He’s posted videos on his squat and while I think he generally comes off as an arrogant prat his depth is fine.
Some people just squat more than they pull raw. I’m one of those as well. Leverages do matter JC. Look at it this way, on the lifts you have better leverages you’re not going to need to dedicate as much time to said lift to make it competitive which means you can dedicate more time to the lifts that you may not be biomechanically advantageous at.
Going to subscribe, just because I have a shit deadlift lol. Have you tried sumo at all Jonnie? I know you saw me switch it up, of course I haven’t pulled forever now, but I think it helped the hammys somewhat But hell, what do I know, I’m just a dumb ole fat boy that likes to pick up heavy things
I’ve tried the advice from Starting Strength and it seems to work for me regarding foot placement. Keep your heels only a fist apart and the toes should be angled slightly out. One thing I noticed from your video is you could benefit from more hip drive, especially through the middle of your deads. Zercher squats will improve your hip drive. Another point is to use your butt by pushing it out more and driving with the hams and glutes more. Heavy good mornings will help with the ass end of things. These components of the dead help me to improve bit by bit. Also check out Dimel deads and Halting deads for starting speed and explosive power.
But hell, what do I know, I’m just a dumb ole fat boy that likes to pick up heavy things