Deadlift Starting Position

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]BigDawg6593 wrote:
Going to subscribe, just because I have a shit deadlift lol. Have you tried sumo at all Jonnie? I know you saw me switch it up, of course I haven’t pulled forever now, but I think it helped the hammys somewhat :confused: But hell, what do I know, I’m just a dumb ole fat boy that likes to pick up heavy things[/quote]

haha well I have actually played around with it a little bit. But just really light and idk I feel like sumo makes it even harder to get it off the ground and we know is our problem. I just feel pretty comforable with conventional, I feel like I can generate enough force to do something big in terms of weight. Idk, I really think that the person who mentioned keeping your lats tight and flexed maybe onto something. Because I noticed that yesterday when i did light speed work, it felt amazing when i really thought about not just keeping the lower back tight, but the lats flexed as well. And right now I am trying moving the bar out to my toes more, so i can pull back more, it felt great on speed stuff, but as we all know what works with 275 doesnt always work with 500

22

[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:

[quote]BHG wrote:
Your pull looks just fine. If you can squat more than you pull, it might be your squat depth that needs adressing. Got a squat video?
Also, regarding the leverage thing; a basic introduction to classical mechanics will help you grasp the issues.

Good luck[/quote]

He’s posted videos on his squat and while I think he generally comes off as an arrogant prat his depth is fine.

Some people just squat more than they pull raw. I’m one of those as well. Leverages do matter JC. Look at it this way, on the lifts you have better leverages you’re not going to need to dedicate as much time to said lift to make it competitive which means you can dedicate more time to the lifts that you may not be biomechanically advantageous at.[/quote]

I never said leverages dont matter. I said they are a much smaller issue than people make them out to be. I dont think you squat so much because your legs are extra short, I think you are geneitcally gifted with a great deal of leg strength. That is my point, that other factors and skills are more important to lift imbalances than leverages.

Once again, my opinion. I havent seen practical studies on the ratios of the top powerlifters limbs, so I dont think we can know for certain how significant leverages apply in a practical scenario

23

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:

[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:

[quote]BHG wrote:
Your pull looks just fine. If you can squat more than you pull, it might be your squat depth that needs adressing. Got a squat video?
Also, regarding the leverage thing; a basic introduction to classical mechanics will help you grasp the issues.

Good luck[/quote]

He’s posted videos on his squat and while I think he generally comes off as an arrogant prat his depth is fine.

Some people just squat more than they pull raw. I’m one of those as well. Leverages do matter JC. Look at it this way, on the lifts you have better leverages you’re not going to need to dedicate as much time to said lift to make it competitive which means you can dedicate more time to the lifts that you may not be biomechanically advantageous at.[/quote]

I never said leverages dont matter. I said they are a much smaller issue than people make them out to be. I dont think you squat so much because your legs are extra short, I think you are geneitcally gifted with a great deal of leg strength. That is my point, that other factors and skills are more important to lift imbalances than leverages.

Once again, my opinion. I havent seen practical studies on the ratios of the top powerlifters limbs, so I dont think we can know for certain how significant leverages apply in a practical scenario
[/quote]

There are a decent amount of studies in the NSCA database on leverages if I recall. That being said a more practical example would be Ed Coan. That is someone who had the epitome of perfect leverages for deadlifting. Yes many people use leverages as a crutch, but they absolutely can make a big difference at the top levels.

24

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
Once again, my opinion. I havent seen practical studies on the ratios of the top powerlifters limbs, so I dont think we can know for certain how significant leverages apply in a practical scenario
[/quote]

Well if you think about it from a physics standpoint, leverage is literally the mechanical advantage provided by a lever. You learn about this sort of stuff and the other simple machines in a physics class. From a science frame of mind, peoples’ differing body proportions have to affect the physics of their lifting. I don’t remember much of my physics classes lol, but when you think about stuff like moment arms and lines of action and torque and angles and such, it’s scientifically impossible for leverage not to matter, potentially significantly.

25

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
Once again, my opinion. I havent seen practical studies on the ratios of the top powerlifters limbs, so I dont think we can know for certain how significant leverages apply in a practical scenario
[/quote]

Well if you think about it from a physics standpoint, leverage is literally the mechanical advantage provided by a lever. You learn about this sort of stuff and the other simple machines in a physics class. From a science frame of mind, peoples’ differing body proportions have to affect the physics of their lifting. I don’t remember much of my physics classes lol, but when you think about stuff like moment arms and lines of action and torque and angles and such, it’s scientifically impossible for leverage not to matter, potentially significantly.[/quote]
You’d need a shit ton of torque to make good use of a shitty lever. That’s why big pullers which less than freaky levers come standard with a huge back.

26

I dont get why people keep acting like I said leverages dont matter at all. I’ll say it again that I dont think the difference is nearly as significant in terms of the lifts as people think they are. If a guy benches 600 with T rex arms then everyone says well its because he has short arms. However there are many guys with short arms that cant bench worth shit, and then leverages arent brought up. As i said, I think they make a minor difference in practical application, perhaps 5-15lbs, but people use leverages as a last resort to explain how its possible for someone to have such an outstanding lift. I never said it makes no difference, its just a minor detail in the grand scheme of what makes a lifter excel in my eyes. I know there is a good chance that I may be wrong as it is merely an inferrence. But I have yet to really see solid evidence otherwise. Basic physiscs gives us grounds for a theory, but in practice the body is so complicated that there are too many factors to know 100% that theory and practice are in line with one another with lifting.

But I didnt start this thread to deabte about leverages, I just want to know where other lifters with big deadlifts have the bar relative to their feet for the conventional deadlift. So is on your shins, midway on your foot, or lined up with your toes the best way to pull for you guys in your experience?

27

I can’t help but wonder if spending less time at the bottom of deadlift will help. I used to have problems in the bottom too, but now it’s mid-shin to knee level. Working on spending as little time in the bottom without sacrificing form is one thing that helped. Take that with a grain of salt. Your numbers are well above mine.

28

[quote]yolo84 wrote:
OP apologies but how much do you squat again? I can’t remember.

What do you think you should be DLing based on your squat and other lifts?[/quote]

bump

29

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
I dont get why people keep acting like I said leverages dont matter at all. I’ll say it again that I dont think the difference is nearly as significant in terms of the lifts as people think they are. If a guy benches 600 with T rex arms then everyone says well its because he has short arms. However there are many guys with short arms that cant bench worth shit, and then leverages arent brought up. As i said, I think they make a minor difference in practical application, perhaps 5-15lbs, but people use leverages as a last resort to explain how its possible for someone to have such an outstanding lift. I never said it makes no difference, its just a minor detail in the grand scheme of what makes a lifter excel in my eyes. I know there is a good chance that I may be wrong as it is merely an inferrence. But I have yet to really see solid evidence otherwise. Basic physiscs gives us grounds for a theory, but in practice the body is so complicated that there are too many factors to know 100% that theory and practice are in line with one another with lifting.

But I didnt start this thread to deabte about leverages, I just want to know where other lifters with big deadlifts have the bar relative to their feet for the conventional deadlift. So is on your shins, midway on your foot, or lined up with your toes the best way to pull for you guys in your experience?[/quote]

Cool story, almost read past the first sentence

30

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:
I dont get why people keep acting like I said leverages dont matter at all. I’ll say it again that I dont think the difference is nearly as significant in terms of the lifts as people think they are. If a guy benches 600 with T rex arms then everyone says well its because he has short arms. However there are many guys with short arms that cant bench worth shit, and then leverages arent brought up. As i said, I think they make a minor difference in practical application, perhaps 5-15lbs, but people use leverages as a last resort to explain how its possible for someone to have such an outstanding lift. I never said it makes no difference, its just a minor detail in the grand scheme of what makes a lifter excel in my eyes. I know there is a good chance that I may be wrong as it is merely an inferrence. But I have yet to really see solid evidence otherwise. Basic physiscs gives us grounds for a theory, but in practice the body is so complicated that there are too many factors to know 100% that theory and practice are in line with one another with lifting.

But I didnt start this thread to deabte about leverages, I just want to know where other lifters with big deadlifts have the bar relative to their feet for the conventional deadlift. So is on your shins, midway on your foot, or lined up with your toes the best way to pull for you guys in your experience?[/quote]

When you say leverages only affect a lift 5-15 lbs that is essentially saying they don’t matter. Again, many people do indeed use poor leverages as an excuse, but the absolute best at certain lifts and the very few that have had records stand the test of time such as Ed Coan do indeed have a huge mechanical advantage. I don’t think anyone has come within 50 lbs of some of his deadlift records. You can’t say steroid use is the reason why considering so many use that and higher quality stuff versus what they used back then. Again, look through history, and look through the world records (tested or untested) and find the ones that are still around from the 70’s/80’s/90’s and I can almost guarantee you those are people that had mechanical advantages that is why they have stood the test of time. You can only look at the elite echelons because you can assume all things are relatively equal with a minimal variance at the elite level, i.e. technique is solid, strength is the same, etc. That’s why you don’t see many world records just absolutely shattered - everyone is doing the things they should be doing and everyone is working hard. It’s those genetic gifts that set apart the legends from the greats.

As far as foot position I always go with bar on the shins it but the angle at which my shins are touching the bar changes. I find that when they’re not straight perpindicular I tend to have a bit more speed off the floor.

31

435 x 5 below parallel oly stance. Switiching to powerlifting stance and shortening depth so I expect around 500-515. I have the strength to deadlift more than I do in workouts, as I said that 500 x 4 was a great day. For example last workout did a super easy 475 x 2, and then my hard set was supposed to be 510 x 3-4 and got a lousy 1 rep only

32

And I really want to know where people put the bar relative to their feet for the deadlift. That really is the purpose of this thread. The person that told me to tighten my back gave great advice, now all I really want to know is how far others place the bar from their chins, especially ones with a much stronger deadlift than squat

btw another reason why i know my deadlift could be much more is that last year i squatted 435 and deadlifted 474 and at that point I deadlifting on and off for a year. I know my deadlift can shoot up if I get the tech down for the start

33

Just to check, is your belief that you can DL 600 based on the hypothetical 515 PL squat?

34

[quote]milktruck wrote:
Just to check, is your belief that you can DL 600 based on the hypothetical 515 PL squat?[/quote]

No several other factors, including speed of pulls with submaximal weights, lower back strength, hamstring strength, can rep much more but max stagnate, ect

Look I’m not going to argue why I know I can pull 600, its a waste of our time. This thread isnt “can i pull 6 hundo guys??”.

All I want to know is where people have the bar placed to begin the pull, as I feel my technique is sub par currently.

Here is a vid I found that shoes a super strong pull with the bar farther out than most closer to the toes than mid foot which is what I am going to try

35

For starters I dont think the bar placement in that video is really any differnt that what everyone has been saying in terms of starting with the bar mid foot. But just to clear things up, the video you posted was your best deadlifting to date correct? Form looks pretty solid in that video. You have since tried to tweek your form on the premise you have the tools to pull 600 right now, and have since regressed in your deadlift? Im not trying to be a dick thats just what Im gathering. Maybe you should stick to the form you used in that video (because it looks pretty solid) and accept you cant pull 600 till you pull 600.

On a side note switching to a powerlifting style squat isnt neccesarily going to increase your squat. Looking at the way you squat looks pretty similar to me and theres no way I could squat what I do narrow with a more tradition powerlifting squat. Its worth a shot because maybe you will be able to squat more but it kind of seems like the deadlift predicament in that your trying to change things that might not neccesarily need to be changed based on things you SHOULD be able to do. Just my two cents. Your lifts are pretty good why not just keep trucking away and see where you end up, theres not glaring technical problems that are going to injure you.

36

[quote]clutz15 wrote:
For starters I dont think the bar placement in that video is really any differnt that what everyone has been saying in terms of starting with the bar mid foot. But just to clear things up, the video you posted was your best deadlifting to date correct? Form looks pretty solid in that video. You have since tried to tweek your form on the premise you have the tools to pull 600 right now, and have since regressed in your deadlift? Im not trying to be a dick thats just what Im gathering. Maybe you should stick to the form you used in that video (because it looks pretty solid) and accept you cant pull 600 till you pull 600.

On a side note switching to a powerlifting style squat isnt neccesarily going to increase your squat. Looking at the way you squat looks pretty similar to me and theres no way I could squat what I do narrow with a more tradition powerlifting squat. Its worth a shot because maybe you will be able to squat more but it kind of seems like the deadlift predicament in that your trying to change things that might not neccesarily need to be changed based on things you SHOULD be able to do. Just my two cents. Your lifts are pretty good why not just keep trucking away and see where you end up, theres not glaring technical problems that are going to injure you.[/quote]

No I havent switched my form up at all, I have just been really hit or miss. I believe its due to me not really knowing the tech i need to be doing. I believe I pulled with pretty good form for the video, but I dont really know what to focus on because since then I have been all over the place.

I wish I had my recent vid of me doing 505 x only 1.5 because the bar just falls away from me. And that is the problem. I looked at the vid and the first rep of 505 is real easy, then its like I lose my balance sometimes and get jolted forward. I think back tightness, pulling backwards rather than up, and starting with the bar a bit forward may help

I have already switched to low bar last year and it helped, and I just did my first workout going low bar and first set it almost slipped and got 425 barely once, then came back and got 425 x 5 for 2 solid sets with a sore back from dl a couple days prior. The transition works pretty well for me, I think it is likely due to me having strong hamstrings from training for track. Thanks for the heads up though, as I said all I want to do is here what works for others, it is very interesting to see how certain preferences work for certain athletes.

37

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:

[quote]clutz15 wrote:
For starters I dont think the bar placement in that video is really any differnt that what everyone has been saying in terms of starting with the bar mid foot. But just to clear things up, the video you posted was your best deadlifting to date correct? Form looks pretty solid in that video. You have since tried to tweek your form on the premise you have the tools to pull 600 right now, and have since regressed in your deadlift? Im not trying to be a dick thats just what Im gathering. Maybe you should stick to the form you used in that video (because it looks pretty solid) and accept you cant pull 600 till you pull 600.

On a side note switching to a powerlifting style squat isnt neccesarily going to increase your squat. Looking at the way you squat looks pretty similar to me and theres no way I could squat what I do narrow with a more tradition powerlifting squat. Its worth a shot because maybe you will be able to squat more but it kind of seems like the deadlift predicament in that your trying to change things that might not neccesarily need to be changed based on things you SHOULD be able to do. Just my two cents. Your lifts are pretty good why not just keep trucking away and see where you end up, theres not glaring technical problems that are going to injure you.[/quote]

No I havent switched my form up at all, I have just been really hit or miss. I believe its due to me not really knowing the tech i need to be doing. I believe I pulled with pretty good form for the video, but I dont really know what to focus on because since then I have been all over the place.

I wish I had my recent vid of me doing 505 x only 1.5 because the bar just falls away from me. And that is the problem. I looked at the vid and the first rep of 505 is real easy, then its like I lose my balance sometimes and get jolted forward. I think back tightness, pulling backwards rather than up, and starting with the bar a bit forward may help

I have already switched to low bar last year and it helped, and I just did my first workout going low bar and first set it almost slipped and got 425 barely once, then came back and got 425 x 5 for 2 solid sets with a sore back from dl a couple days prior. The transition works pretty well for me, I think it is likely due to me having strong hamstrings from training for track. Thanks for the heads up though, as I said all I want to do is here what works for others, it is very interesting to see how certain preferences work for certain athletes.[/quote]

Oh ok that makes sense, if you can get a video of one of the tougher sets comparing the two would be really beneficial cause then you can find whats causing you to miss the form in your video you posted.

Oh you just meant switching to the low bar placement with the narrow stance? This is the exact change I just made a couple months ago and it suits me perfectly, hopefully you find the same!

38

[quote]clutz15 wrote:

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:

[quote]clutz15 wrote:
For starters I dont think the bar placement in that video is really any differnt that what everyone has been saying in terms of starting with the bar mid foot. But just to clear things up, the video you posted was your best deadlifting to date correct? Form looks pretty solid in that video. You have since tried to tweek your form on the premise you have the tools to pull 600 right now, and have since regressed in your deadlift? Im not trying to be a dick thats just what Im gathering. Maybe you should stick to the form you used in that video (because it looks pretty solid) and accept you cant pull 600 till you pull 600.

On a side note switching to a powerlifting style squat isnt neccesarily going to increase your squat. Looking at the way you squat looks pretty similar to me and theres no way I could squat what I do narrow with a more tradition powerlifting squat. Its worth a shot because maybe you will be able to squat more but it kind of seems like the deadlift predicament in that your trying to change things that might not neccesarily need to be changed based on things you SHOULD be able to do. Just my two cents. Your lifts are pretty good why not just keep trucking away and see where you end up, theres not glaring technical problems that are going to injure you.[/quote]

No I havent switched my form up at all, I have just been really hit or miss. I believe its due to me not really knowing the tech i need to be doing. I believe I pulled with pretty good form for the video, but I dont really know what to focus on because since then I have been all over the place.

I wish I had my recent vid of me doing 505 x only 1.5 because the bar just falls away from me. And that is the problem. I looked at the vid and the first rep of 505 is real easy, then its like I lose my balance sometimes and get jolted forward. I think back tightness, pulling backwards rather than up, and starting with the bar a bit forward may help

I have already switched to low bar last year and it helped, and I just did my first workout going low bar and first set it almost slipped and got 425 barely once, then came back and got 425 x 5 for 2 solid sets with a sore back from dl a couple days prior. The transition works pretty well for me, I think it is likely due to me having strong hamstrings from training for track. Thanks for the heads up though, as I said all I want to do is here what works for others, it is very interesting to see how certain preferences work for certain athletes.[/quote]

Oh ok that makes sense, if you can get a video of one of the tougher sets comparing the two would be really beneficial cause then you can find whats causing you to miss the form in your video you posted.

Oh you just meant switching to the low bar placement with the narrow stance? This is the exact change I just made a couple months ago and it suits me perfectly, hopefully you find the same![/quote]

Yeah I’ll see if I can get it off my phone up on here tm. And kinda maybe, haha I really dont know what Im gonna do with the stance. Last year I would say I went from narrow in training, to medium. I was gonna say that now I am doing low bar, and it is wider, but honestly compared to an actual wide stance squat, its pretty narrow. So I would say right its most likely just a medium stance, but definately a chunk wider than what I train with, I would guess about a a foot to a foot and a half wider than my normal shoulder width. Nothing huge, but I definately am feeling a more natural bottom at parralel and am getting more out of my belt. I remember when I first got a belt last year at the start it barely helped because I hardly used any back, just all legs to power it up. The more I get my whole body involved the better its feeling.

And thank you for the kind words, btw are you lifting at raw nats, because that is what I am preparing for right now

39

[quote]@JC_Tree_Trunks wrote:

And thank you for the kind words, btw are you lifting at raw nats, because that is what I am preparing for right now[/quote]

Nope I’m from Canada had our Nationals a few months ago!

40

What’s you’re deadlift day/ assistance work look like?