Deadlift - Squat Substitute?

I have some structural challenges that make squatting very difficult for me, but deadlifting comes easily.

  1. I have long legs (especially the tib/fib part) and a short torso
  2. My knees and toes point outward and I cannot squat at all with my knees pointing straight forward, hence I have no ability to do close-stance squatting
  3. I have very poor calf flexibility despite my daily efforts to stretch them
  4. I have condromalacia patella in both knees, which makes any ATG effort a little painful and quite noisy. Sounds like tree trunks breaking when I have loaded knee flexion with squats. Deads don’t give me the same problem for some reason.

My question to you veterans out there: will deadlifts and single-leg squats alone be good enough for lower body development? I do conventional grip, sumo grip, snatch grip, single leg squats, and stiff legged deads regularly.

What kind of development am I sacrificing with the emphasis on deads and avoiding squats?

Many thanks

Dave

There are no substitues for squats. If you cannot do them, dont. If you can do single leg squats, do them.

Just make sure you keep doing deadlifts.

I’m not a veteran but deadlifts and single leg work sure is enough for lower body works, as long as you go hard and heavy.

If close stance full rom squats hurt your knees why not try wide stance, low bar squats to paralel or 2 inches below. Try them light and work on form, box squats is great when working on form too.

I am also a long limb/short torso lifter and mechanically, Deads are some what different than squats, especially Olympic style squats. Deads have considerably more overall back involvement and less range of motion in the legs than squats.

Try Bulgarian Squats, heavy lunges, weighted pistols (if these don’t bother you) and other such movements. There are also hips sleds (Pat Roberts can 2 grand) and machine hack squats.

You don’t need particularly need squats to fully develope your legs. There are other alternatives.

  • Rear Deadlifts
  • Sumo Deadlifts
  • Front Deadlifts
  • Stiff-Leg Deadlifts
  • Romanian Deadlifts
  • Leg Presses
  • Glute-Ham Raises
  • Pistols
  • Lunges
  • Leg Curls
  • Leg Extensions
  • Running Sprints

(If you can do a a few of these exercises, you should be fine)

I mostly use Rear Deadlifts as my main quad builder.

[quote]Go heavy fool wrote:
I mostly use Rear Deadlifts as my main quad builder.[/quote]

Are you refering to Hack Squats?

To the OP: I have patella issues in my left knee, but both of them sound like Rice Krispies when I squat. I find close stance very uncomfortable, so I do them with a natural, wide stance, toes pointing outwards, and squatting between my knees; I go ATG too. I have not had any knee issues so far. Have you tried front squats? you’ll have to use less weight, so that might help your pain.

[quote]HOV wrote:
I have some structural challenges that make squatting very difficult for me, but deadlifting comes easily.

  1. I have long legs (especially the tib/fib part) and a short torso
  2. My knees and toes point outward and I cannot squat at all with my knees pointing straight forward, hence I have no ability to do close-stance squatting
  3. I have very poor calf flexibility despite my daily efforts to stretch them
  4. I have condromalacia patella in both knees, which makes any ATG effort a little painful and quite noisy. Sounds like tree trunks breaking when I have loaded knee flexion with squats. Deads don’t give me the same problem for some reason.

My question to you veterans out there: will deadlifts and single-leg squats alone be good enough for lower body development? I do conventional grip, sumo grip, snatch grip, single leg squats, and stiff legged deads regularly.

What kind of development am I sacrificing with the emphasis on deads and avoiding squats?

Many thanks

Dave[/quote]

I have very similar structure and ATG back squats are a no no for me because with my short back and long legs I can’t keep an arch. Check out the video of me squatting at my contest

[video]141[/video]

I use a medium-wide stance and Sit between my legs, the knee’s don’t travel forward so there is no unecessary strain on them. Disregard people who tell you narrow ATG squats are superior, we all have different structures we need to work with.

That said, I manage to do front squats ATG because they permit my torso to remain more upright.

[quote]Miserere wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
I mostly use Rear Deadlifts as my main quad builder.

Are you refering to Hack Squats?

To the OP: I have patella issues in my left knee, but both of them sound like Rice Krispies when I squat. I find close stance very uncomfortable, so I do them with a natural, wide stance, toes pointing outwards, and squatting between my knees; I go ATG too. I have not had any knee issues so far. Have you tried front squats? you’ll have to use less weight, so that might help your pain.[/quote]

Rear deadlifts sound like barbell hack squats to me also.

The way you described back squats is the only way I can do them, but I have to go so light that I highly quesiton the value of the activity. I can do them for a DE day, but I figured it’s probably not even worth the wear and tear.

Front squats are the last bastion of squatting I do, and I do them as a part of the full clean motion, with a wide stance. I just turn up the stereo and don’t worry about the noise, and the weight is definitely more accomodating to my structure and knees.

Go heavy fool - thanks for the list. I do most of those exercises now. But do you have a resource that shows a proper romanian deadlift, and a pistol?

[quote]Jesse Snaden wrote:
I have very similar structure and ATG back squats are a no no for me because with my short back and long legs I can’t keep an arch. Check out the video of me squatting at my contest

[video]141[/video]

I use a medium-wide stance and Sit between my legs, the knee’s don’t travel forward so there is no unecessary strain on them. Disregard people who tell you narrow ATG squats are superior, we all have different structures we need to work with.

That said, I manage to do front squats ATG because they permit my torso to remain more upright.
[/quote]

Jesse, that’s pretty much the squat form I evolved before hanging them up for a deadlift-centric effort. Thanks for the confirmation that it’s not a bad thing.

Interesting comment about maintaining your arch; I injured my back quite badly last year because I was unable to maintain a proper arch while going too low, and that was another reason I gave up full back squats.

How heavy were you in that video? you look over 300 lbs., and that was amazing intensity. Thanks for sharing.

HOV, it was 505lbs for reps. I managed 12 but I could’ve done more, the bar slid off my back. I’ve done 725lbs without a powerlifting suit in training squatting like this and Hugo Girard a WSM competitor, squats the same way. It’s healthier for the knee’s and really recruits the glutes and hamstrings.

I slipped a disk doing ATG back squats with a narrow stance, they aren’t meant for my structure.

My bodyweight is 320lbs on that video. I got more video’s in my profile if you liked that one.

[quote]Miserere wrote:
Go heavy fool wrote:
I mostly use Rear Deadlifts as my main quad builder.

Are you refering to Hack Squats?[/quote]

Sort of. I prefer this movement to squats because it does not do near the spine and lower back damage that squats do when you have a loaded barbell on your shoulders.

Basicly the movement that I do is the same exact movement as a squat. the only difference is you start the movement by sitting on the bar instead of it sitting on you.

Stand up and do a squat with no weight. Now put a barbell with weight on it below your ass. Reach down and pick it up next time you squat down.

I like this exercise better for the legs than squats because it hits the thighs more as squats will hit the glutes more.

hi hov

ive read the posts here and you have been given a wealth of great options so i wont go into it but your squat question reminds of an article that was posted here a few weeks ago. it was an interview done by EC with strength coach Mike Boyle. here is an excerpt…

T-Nation: Okay, here’s a chance to wow our readers. Randomly throw some idea out that will really make T-Nation readers say, “Oh, crap, that really makes sense! Why didn’t I think of that?”

MB: Okay, I’ll toss out a few:

  1. Front squats instead of back squats: I love front squats because you can’t really do them wrong. No back pain, lots of leg work. I think the only reason most people back squat is because they never thought about not doing it.

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1229560

i think the last sentence sums up the advice i would give you.

jesse’s video is a great alternative to regular squating and his advice on training based on your own structural biomechanics is all that needs to be said!

good luck

I find trap bar deadlifts to be a much better quad exercise than conventional (not that conventional deadlifts aren’t awesome - I love them) Do them standing on a couple of 25 lb plates per foot to get deep.

[quote]CuffDunk wrote:
I find trap bar deadlifts to be a much better quad exercise than conventional (not that conventional deadlifts aren’t awesome - I love them) Do them standing on a couple of 25 lb plates per foot to get deep.[/quote]

I would also recommend the TBDL as an alternative. I am giving up squats myself. At my age and after many years of abusing my body, it just doesn’t feel safe anymore. I used to squat with 5 plates a side now 3 feels like it will kill me. I am just doing regular DL’s at the moment and I am getting a lot of quad involvement just focussing on using my legs instead of my back.

[quote]summa wrote:
CuffDunk wrote:
I find trap bar deadlifts to be a much better quad exercise than conventional (not that conventional deadlifts aren’t awesome - I love them) Do them standing on a couple of 25 lb plates per foot to get deep.

I would also recommend the TBDL as an alternative. I am giving up squats myself. At my age and after many years of abusing my body, it just doesn’t feel safe anymore. I used to squat with 5 plates a side now 3 feels like it will kill me. I am just doing regular DL’s at the moment and I am getting a lot of quad involvement just focussing on using my legs instead of my back. [/quote]

If the squats make you feel like they are killing you, ask yourself why, it may very well be that your technique is poor or just wrong for your structure. I continue to perfect my technique and I make huge strides when I do.

My technique also needs to adjust as my body changes because the leverages change as well (gain weight or loose weight). Most people are too scared to change things up, they don’t realize that by being close minded, they are limiting themselves in the long run.

Training shouldn’t be killing yourself and your joints, quite the opposite, you should be making yourself healthy.
Now if you compete at the elite level in a sport, like strongnan or powerlifting, you will suffer injuries as you push the limit.

Good posts by Jesse.

I would add that one observation I have made in training younger lifters for PL whom typically have a sports season that really impacts their ability to train, is as follows.

Frequently we will move to a twice a week training template where they will squat and DL the same day, do upper body and accesory on the other. Primary goal being maintaining strength.

Sometimes the lifter may only be available one day a week and we will insist then that they come in and train deadlift with the rest of the team on Fridays.

The effect on their squat is almost always a maintenance of strength, with the only thing required being a little time (2-3 weeks) to re-establish their groove and start squatting with confidence again. Upper body usually holds reasonably as well assuming they do not lose significant amounts of weight during the season.

I am sort of taking a long way around saying, yes, I think this is acceptable, but you will obviously never progress much in your squat strength.

[quote]Jesse Snadden wrote:
summa wrote:
CuffDunk wrote:
I find trap bar deadlifts to be a much better quad exercise than conventional (not that conventional deadlifts aren’t awesome - I love them) Do them standing on a couple of 25 lb plates per foot to get deep.

I would also recommend the TBDL as an alternative. I am giving up squats myself. At my age and after many years of abusing my body, it just doesn’t feel safe anymore. I used to squat with 5 plates a side now 3 feels like it will kill me. I am just doing regular DL’s at the moment and I am getting a lot of quad involvement just focussing on using my legs instead of my back.

If the squats make you feel like they are killing you, ask yourself why, it may very well be that your technique is poor or just wrong for your structure. I continue to perfect my technique and I make huge strides when I do.

My technique also needs to adjust as my body changes because the leverages change as well (gain weight or loose weight). Most people are too scared to change things up, they don’t realize that by being close minded, they are limiting themselves in the long run.

Training shouldn’t be killing yourself and your joints, quite the opposite, you should be making yourself healthy.
Now if you compete at the elite level in a sport, like strongnan or powerlifting, you will suffer injuries as you push the limit.[/quote]

Jesse, I appreciate your comments. I have many injuries that provide some discomfort/suffering on a daily basis. I believe that training does help me and will keep me from the operating table. I think my form is good but I just don’t like the compression a heavy bar puts on my spine now. After many years of playing football, Rugby and doing long jump/high jump/triple jump my back is a problem. I think the deadlift is just a safer and more productive exercise for me at this point in my life. Squating was my favorite exercise for many years.RIP.
You should start a thread talking about all the awesome Canadian strongmen.

[quote]Jesse Snadden wrote:
I got more video’s in my profile if you liked that one.[/quote]

I checked out all the videos in your profile. I was impressed until I put a few things together and realized you’re 23 years old, then I was completely amazed.

You have achived a level of success already in your chosen endeavors that many never achieve in a lifetime. Hats off to you, amigo.

[quote]Jesse Snadden wrote:
I am giving up squats myself. At my age and after many years of abusing my body, it just doesn’t feel safe anymore. I used to squat with 5 plates a side now 3 feels like it will kill me. I am just doing regular DL’s at the moment and I am getting a lot of quad involvement just focussing on using my legs instead of my back.

[/quote]

I’m pretty much on the same path this guy is on. I have really limited my squatting and have focused on leg concentrated deadlifts for exercises to strengthen and build the legs. I use many forms of deadlifts as leg exercises. I have become so accustomed to using deads as a leg exercise instead of a back exercise… that i actuall have to use other exercises for my back.

I’m not against squats. I still do them. But, I prefer deadlifts and the variations. I have fairly long legs myself, not the best exercise for us long legged guys. Now If I was 5’4" instead of 6’, maybe I would think differently about squats. They were my main mass builder for years but they are now simple becoming almost eliminated from my routines. I’ve almost exclusivly replaced squats with deadlift variations.

Hey I didn’t write that, why am I quoted hahaha.

[quote]Jesse, I appreciate your comments. I have many injuries that provide some discomfort/suffering on a daily basis. I believe that training does help me and will keep me from the operating table. I think my form is good but I just don’t like the compression a heavy bar puts on my spine now. After many years of playing football, Rugby and doing long jump/high jump/triple jump my back is a problem. I think the deadlift is just a safer and more productive exercise for me at this point in my life. Squating was my favorite exercise for many years.RIP.
You should start a thread talking about all the awesome Canadian strongmen. [/quote]

Maybe you can get a squat belt harness at ironmind and do those too. Magnus Samuelson did them when he tore his bicep, which made it impossible for him to do back squats.