DC Overhyped?

Training Bodybuilding
81

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I am wondering if anyone can explain to me what the difference is between taking 30-40 seconds inbetween the first and second, and second and third sets and calling it “rest pause,” and the long standing bb’ing practice going back to the Golden Age at least of taking 30-40 seconds between the sets, but calling them three sets and not using the phrase “rest pause” ???[/quote]

If I recall correctly, “rest pause” is used to provide a label to the specific concept. It could have been called “1 set - rest - 2 set - rest - 3 set” or “DC’s 3 sets to failure with a short rest between each set”, but I’m sure you will agree “rest pause” is far more convenient to reference in a given situation.

And here is a quote from DC regarding the protocol of “rest pause” in a thread you started ( Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness )…

I would like to post in this thread but the Obsessive Compulsiveness Disorder that is going on in here is making me cringe.

Im going to cut and paste the question I was asked by one of the newstand mags I did an interview for of late.

  1. What is the reason for the deep breathing between sets (also explain when to apply it)? How do you determine the number of breaths for each?
    Oxygen, the key to rapid recovery is oxygen. The deep breathing done between rest pause sets is to force as much oxygen into the body as possible so that in 20-30 seconds (usually the time I like most trainees to take for their 10-15 deep breaths) the lifter is ready to go again.

All that breathing ensures that carbon dioxide is released, too, which is the most important way of buffering the lactic acid produced in the working muscles during an all-out exercise situation.

The deep breaths are done in between each part of the rest pause. A hypothetical set of incline bench press after warm-ups might look like?
a. 275 8 reps to failure (rack the weight)+10-15 deep breaths
b. 275 2-4 reps to failure (rack)+ 10-15 deep breaths
c. 275 1-3 reps to failure (rack) and done or optional static hold.

Want to know the #1 reason most bodybuilders end up at 50 years old never attaining the physiques they wanted? Because they worried chronically about small stuff and non factors instead of seeing the big picture…

Heres a very pertinent question…Did you beat your logbook today?

82

[quote]kylec72 wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
I am wondering if anyone can explain to me what the difference is between taking 30-40 seconds inbetween the first and second, and second and third sets and calling it “rest pause,” and the long standing bb’ing practice going back to the Golden Age at least of taking 30-40 seconds between the sets, but calling them three sets and not using the phrase “rest pause” ???

If I recall correctly, “rest pause” is used to provide a label to the specific concept. It could have been called “1 set - rest - 2 set - rest - 3 set” or “DC’s 3 sets to failure with a short rest between each set”, but I’m sure you will agree “rest pause” is far more convenient to reference in a given situation.[/quote]

No, I would not, as the time frame of 30-40 seconds (approximately) between sets has long been considered to be normal albeit brief rest delineating separate sets.

The term “rest pause” had existing meaning referring to extending a single set with rests such as 6 seconds, which is qualititatively and quantitatively quite different.

It is just as bad a misuse of language as Dante referring to correct speed of negatives in his system as “6-8 true seconds,” or perhaps he uses the phrase “actual seconds,” when actually the speed of negatives in the system is 3-4 seconds, as shown by the fact that no video by any of his disciples has slower negatives than that. But apparently he has this idea that to get people to do 3 or 4 seconds he needs to say 6-8 and then calls those fake seconds either true or actual. That he is not a practitioner of using words according to what they mean is really not all that unusual. But that doesn’t mean everyone need salute the wrong terminology.

No, I don’t agree that “rest pause” is an appropriate let alone needed expression for taking approximately 30-40 seconds rest between sets, nor is it a new system to do three sets, each of as many reps as possible, with such rest inbetween.

Or if you are arguing that there is something new due to the talking about oxygen, I’m sorry but oxygen has always been needed. That is not new or different.

The entire program is a new system – in terms of it being new to have that specific combination of things – but the idea that that part itself is an innovation and needs either a new phrase (actually not new) or a misuse of an existing term, I do not agree with.

As for your coining awkward phrases and posing it that those would be the alternatives, therefore shouldn’t I agree that “rest pause” is a better term, that is a strawman form of argument.

83

I’m surprised someone dug this thread back up that I made. There’s no doubt that DC works. I’ve just been puzzled as to why there needs to be thousands of pages written in threads all over the internet for the interpretation of a routine whose workouts look like this:

Example 1:
Chest exercise
Shoulder exercise
Tricep exercise
Horizontal pull exercise
Horizontal row or deadlift variation

Example 2:
Bicep exercise
Forearm exercise
Calf exercise
Hamstring exercise
Quad exercise

Sets and reps: 1 rest pause set

Progression: Aim to add more weight and/or reps over time.

Perhaps I’m not as intelligent as I thought or there actually needs to be thousands of pages of interpretation written.
Hamstrn

84

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I’m surprised someone dug this thread back up

[/quote]

It was a pretty epic necro. Almost a year dead, then BAM it rose from the grave.

85

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I’m surprised someone dug this thread back up that I made. There’s no doubt that DC works. I’ve just been puzzled as to why there needs to be thousands of pages written in threads all over the internet for the interpretation of a routine whose workouts look like this:

Example 1:
Chest exercise
Shoulder exercise
Tricep exercise
Horizontal pull exercise [/quote] vertical (with two possible exceptions). [quote]
Horizontal row or deadlift variation

Example 2:
Bicep exercise
Forearm exercise
Calf exercise
Hamstring exercise
Quad exercise

Sets and reps: 1 rest pause set [/quote] Too many exceptions. [quote]
[/quote] + triple rotation. [quote]

Progression: Aim to add more weight and/or reps over time.

Perhaps I’m not as intelligent as I thought or there actually needs to be thousands of pages of interpretation written. [/quote] People are just a little… Slow? I mean, hey, Wendler’s 5/3/1 system is pretty easy to understand… Yet there have been a billion questions asked about it… Makes you wonder if there are people out there who just sit down and think up new questions to ask about simple training systems all day long.

86

Right; I should have wrote: 1 rest-pause OR 1 straight set. Some exercises don’t lend themselves to rest-pause.

I also know that there is a 3-exercise-per-bodypart rotation.

People interpret and quibble over training programs in the same way that Chasidic Rabbis spend the majority of their lives quibbling over the interpretations of the Old Testament.

87

I’m going to join in the fun here.

Ideally, every single one of us training to increase muscle mass could, and should use as little a rest period as possible.

Your phosphocreatine energy system is essentially replenished by about 30-45 seconds, so generally any of us are ready to roll again in that period of time.

The problem you find is that people are generally just too soft to go again so quick, even though we know that neuroendocrine responses to resistance exercise are maximized with shorter rest periods using relatively high load.

SO why DC training appeals to me from a practical and scientific perspective? None of the descriptive fancy bullshit terms, but the fact that the deep breathing emphasis combined with a short rest period should CALM PEOPLE THE FUCK DOWN so they can lift again asap. I would strongly dispute the relevance of oxygen intake in such as short period of time for muscle recovery since this has little to do with the energy systems used in the actual lift.

But really, who gives a shit. I think this (the breathing and coining of the rest-pause phrase) was a great idea to get to one of the fundamentals of appropriate hypertrophy training going in people - short breaks.

Order and type of exercises used in DC training? Fine. It works, as do lots of things.

I think its a nice package of training with a catchy name and some catchy terms that get people doing the right things for training (including nutrition, appropriate periodization etc etc etc).

88

I rest a long time between sets. I don’t count it or time it, but I know I generally do one set per song (at the most two) on my mp3 player. Since most songs last about 3min, I am guessing that is about how long I rest.

I tend to think the length of rest depends on how heavy you are going. I would not be ready to go again in 30seconds without it seriously decreasing the weight I could lift.

Everyone isn’t made the same.

89

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I rest a long time between sets. I don’t count it or time it, but I know I generally do one set per song (at the most two) on my mp3 player. Since most songs last about 3min, I am guessing that is about how long I rest.

I tend to think the length of rest depends on how heavy you are going. I would not be ready to go again in 30seconds without it seriously decreasing the weight I could lift.

Everyone isn’t made the same.[/quote]

I am the same way. Rushing through my work outs severely decreases the weight I can use.

90

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I rest a long time between sets. I don’t count it or time it, but I know I generally do one set per song (at the most two) on my mp3 player. Since most songs last about 3min, I am guessing that is about how long I rest.

I tend to think the length of rest depends on how heavy you are going. I would not be ready to go again in 30seconds without it seriously decreasing the weight I could lift.

Everyone isn’t made the same.[/quote]

EXACTLY

And there is the point that the same result CAN BE ACHIEVED in different ways.

Hypertrophy with moderate type loading (70-75%) and short rests = tick

Hypertrophy with higher loading (80% +) with longer rests (not too long mind you) = tick

Its just that for most people they can’t put it all together and need a package like DC.

91

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I rest a long time between sets. I don’t count it or time it, but I know I generally do one set per song (at the most two) on my mp3 player. Since most songs last about 3min, I am guessing that is about how long I rest.

I tend to think the length of rest depends on how heavy you are going. I would not be ready to go again in 30seconds without it seriously decreasing the weight I could lift.

Everyone isn’t made the same.[/quote]

Just as an add on, theoretically (and practically), you probably could go again after as little as 30 seconds regardless of the weight you are using. The problem would be that inadequate recovery would effect your volume in subsequent sets, which would defeat the purpose as well. As a crude example, you may do a set of 4 reps at high load, rest 30 seconds, then push out 2 more reps…maybe the next time only get 1…and so on…

Probably wouldn’t get the same total volume done if you’d rested 2-3 minutes and pumped out 4 sets of 5, or if you did it would be a gut busting painful effort.

92

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
kylec72 wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
I am wondering if anyone can explain to me what the difference is between taking 30-40 seconds inbetween the first and second, and second and third sets and calling it “rest pause,” and the long standing bb’ing practice going back to the Golden Age at least of taking 30-40 seconds between the sets, but calling them three sets and not using the phrase “rest pause” ???

If I recall correctly, “rest pause” is used to provide a label to the specific concept. It could have been called “1 set - rest - 2 set - rest - 3 set” or “DC’s 3 sets to failure with a short rest between each set”, but I’m sure you will agree “rest pause” is far more convenient to reference in a given situation.

No, I would not, as the time frame of 30-40 seconds (approximately) between sets has long been considered to be normal albeit brief rest delineating separate sets.

The term “rest pause” had existing meaning referring to extending a single set with rests such as 6 seconds, which is qualititatively and quantitatively quite different.

It is just as bad a misuse of language as Dante referring to correct speed of negatives in his system as “6-8 true seconds,” or perhaps he uses the phrase “actual seconds,” when actually the speed of negatives in the system is 3-4 seconds, as shown by the fact that no video by any of his disciples has slower negatives than that. But apparently he has this idea that to get people to do 3 or 4 seconds he needs to say 6-8 and then calls those fake seconds either true or actual. That he is not a practitioner of using words according to what they mean is really not all that unusual. But that doesn’t mean everyone need salute the wrong terminology.

No, I don’t agree that “rest pause” is an appropriate let alone needed expression for taking approximately 30-40 seconds rest between sets, nor is it a new system to do three sets, each of as many reps as possible, with such rest inbetween.

Or if you are arguing that there is something new due to the talking about oxygen, I’m sorry but oxygen has always been needed. That is not new or different.

The entire program is a new system – in terms of it being new to have that specific combination of things – but the idea that that part itself is an innovation and needs either a new phrase (actually not new) or a misuse of an existing term, I do not agree with.

As for your coining awkward phrases and posing it that those would be the alternatives, therefore shouldn’t I agree that “rest pause” is a better term, that is a strawman form of argument.

[/quote]

There is a particular method in DC which happens to be labeled “rest pause”. Yes, the term did have existing meaning prior to DC, as you stated, which differs from the DC implementation of the term. DC probably could have used a unique term for the method to avoid any such confusion in language, yet I don’t think any great thought was given to the labels of the concepts.

You obviously have a serious objection to “rest pause” being used in reference to the particular DC concept, since it does not hold true to the original meaning. However, no one was trying to force you into a particular viewpoint to agree “rest pause” is a better suited term for DC methodology than the “awkward phrases” I listed. I merely provided an explanation as to why DC training uses the term “rest pause” and made a gesture of presumed agreement based on the explanation. Any other term or phrase could have been used in place of “rest pause” as long as it’s equally effective in referencing the DC concept. When “rest pause” is spoken of in context to DC, readers understand what this means. I’m nearly positive Dante addresses how he came to use the term, while recognizing the origin of its true meaning.

There is nothing left to discuss on the matter.

93

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Perhaps everyone else isn’t as intelligent as I thought or there actually needs to be thousands of pages of interpretation written.
Hamstrn

[/quote]

Fixed.

:slight_smile:

…

In his Muscular Development interview (about 1/3 the way through), Justin Harris speaks about how DC is all very simple, and it emphasizes the basics of eating and getting stronger within a progressive format.

www.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1569/184/

94

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I rest a long time between sets. I don’t count it or time it, but I know I generally do one set per song (at the most two) on my mp3 player. Since most songs last about 3min, I am guessing that is about how long I rest.

I tend to think the length of rest depends on how heavy you are going. I would not be ready to go again in 30seconds without it seriously decreasing the weight I could lift.

Everyone isn’t made the same.[/quote]

True, longer rests are needed the closer to your 1RM you get, and if you want to repeat the same number of repetitions again with the same weight (assuming you went all out on the first set), you’re also gonna need longer rest periods.

That’s why DC generally uses a weight that you could get anywhere from 6-15 (depending on the exercise) reps for on the first RP leg. You then simply try to get as many reps as you can in the second and third RP legs (which usually drop in numbers by about half as you go).

So, they might wind up looking like:
1st RP- 15 reps
2nd RP- 8 reps
3rd RP- 4 reps

For at total of 27 RP reps

Nobody is going to be able to repeat the same number of reps on multiple sets using only 30-40 seconds of rest (unless maybe they’re using considerably lighter weights than they’re capable of, or stopping well short of failure).

Again though, it’s not like it’s the only effective way to go about getting bigger and stronger, but one of the many. If people want to do it, great, if they want to use another approach, great. No one is holding a gun to anyone’s head and forcing them to train this way (not addressing you here X, just making a general statement).

95

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
<<< So, they might wind up looking like:
1st RP- 15 reps
2nd RP- 8 reps
3rd RP- 4 reps

For at total of 27 RP reps >>>[/quote]

I call that one set. Not that it really makes any difference what I call it, but when I use RP, which is a fair amount of the time now thanks to you and Scott, I mentally refer to the above as “a set”. Then there’s a rest of 3-4 or even 5 minutes sometimes depending on the exercise.

96

i don’t believe the dude on the doggcrap main page has made his progress drug free

97

[quote]cubuff2028 wrote:
i don’t believe the dude on the doggcrap main page has made his progress drug free[/quote]

i don’t believe anyone cares

98

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
<<< So, they might wind up looking like:
1st RP- 15 reps
2nd RP- 8 reps
3rd RP- 4 reps

For at total of 27 RP reps >>>

I call that one set. Not that it really makes any difference what I call it, but when I use RP, which is a fair amount of the time now thanks to you and Scott, I mentally refer to the above as “a set”. Then there’s a rest of 3-4 or even 5 minutes sometimes depending on the exercise.[/quote]

So do I, but hey if it makes someone else happy to call it 3 sets, so what. “A rose is a rose by any other name”.

It’s not the specific wording used which makes it effective.

99

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
<<< So, they might wind up looking like:
1st RP- 15 reps
2nd RP- 8 reps
3rd RP- 4 reps

For at total of 27 RP reps >>>

I call that one set. Not that it really makes any difference what I call it, but when I use RP, which is a fair amount of the time now thanks to you and Scott, I mentally refer to the above as “a set”. Then there’s a rest of 3-4 or even 5 minutes sometimes depending on the exercise.

So do I, but hey if it makes someone else happy to call it 3 sets, so what. “A rose is a rose by any other name”.

It’s not the specific wording used which makes it effective.[/quote]

Probably the worst betrayal by my intuition I can think of. I never considered trying RP because it didn’t strike me as being particularly suited for how I train. I was very wrong. I do believe drop training got me prepared for RP though. I know Dante isn’t a fan of drop sets, but they are tough, if done properly anyway and I’m convinced they made RP not nearly as brutal as it would have been had I not been used to drop sets already.

100

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
kylec72 wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
I am wondering if anyone can explain to me what the difference is between taking 30-40 seconds inbetween the first and second, and second and third sets and calling it “rest pause,” and the long standing bb’ing practice going back to the Golden Age at least of taking 30-40 seconds between the sets, but calling them three sets and not using the phrase “rest pause” ???

If I recall correctly, “rest pause” is used to provide a label to the specific concept. It could have been called “1 set - rest - 2 set - rest - 3 set” or “DC’s 3 sets to failure with a short rest between each set”, but I’m sure you will agree “rest pause” is far more convenient to reference in a given situation.

No, I would not, as the time frame of 30-40 seconds (approximately) between sets has long been considered to be normal albeit brief rest delineating separate sets.

The term “rest pause” had existing meaning referring to extending a single set with rests such as 6 seconds, which is qualititatively and quantitatively quite different.

It is just as bad a misuse of language as Dante referring to correct speed of negatives in his system as “6-8 true seconds,” or perhaps he uses the phrase “actual seconds,” when actually the speed of negatives in the system is 3-4 seconds, as shown by the fact that no video by any of his disciples has slower negatives than that. But apparently he has this idea that to get people to do 3 or 4 seconds he needs to say 6-8 and then calls those fake seconds either true or actual. That he is not a practitioner of using words according to what they mean is really not all that unusual. But that doesn’t mean everyone need salute the wrong terminology.

No, I don’t agree that “rest pause” is an appropriate let alone needed expression for taking approximately 30-40 seconds rest between sets, nor is it a new system to do three sets, each of as many reps as possible, with such rest inbetween.

Or if you are arguing that there is something new due to the talking about oxygen, I’m sorry but oxygen has always been needed. That is not new or different.

The entire program is a new system – in terms of it being new to have that specific combination of things – but the idea that that part itself is an innovation and needs either a new phrase (actually not new) or a misuse of an existing term, I do not agree with.

As for your coining awkward phrases and posing it that those would be the alternatives, therefore shouldn’t I agree that “rest pause” is a better term, that is a strawman form of argument.

[/quote]

Another term I find people have been incorrectly using is “straight sets”. Apparently it now means using the same weight for all your sets.

I don’t know… but I’m pretty sure to common gym rats “straight sets” means that you do not alternate an exercise with any others.