CT & Professor X's Discussion

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:

There are people for whom the psychological benefit of eating a Big Mac and fries far outweigh any negative nutritional downside. When you understand the difference between that and “advocating putting fast food in your diet” your horizons will have been broadened for the better.

Funny story … one Canadian winter olympic athlete (she medaled in 1992 I think) was a real health food freak … One of my friends was coaching her at the time and the day before her event at the Olympics he sees her eating a Big Mac… the last thing he would imagine this girl eating!

She told him that when she was young and was stressed out or sad, her father took her to McDonalds. And to this day, when she eats a Big Mac it took her stress away.[/quote]

See that’s the thing. She kept a perspective on life where it was still possible to open your eyes in the morning and have more than drudgery and bondage to look forward to even when competing in the Olympic games. If you feel like having a treat have the damn thing. Nobody’s going to say to build a diet on junk for the sake of it.

Some of these poor souls would head for the nearest tall ledge if they broke down and had a sliver of birthday cake at somebody’s party or something. I honestly believe the stress some people subject themselves to in a lifestyle that’s supposed to be enjoyable overall does them more harm than the food they avoid.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:

There are people for whom the psychological benefit of eating a Big Mac and fries far outweigh any negative nutritional downside. When you understand the difference between that and “advocating putting fast food in your diet” your horizons will have been broadened for the better.

Funny story … one Canadian winter olympic athlete (she medaled in 1992 I think) was a real health food freak … One of my friends was coaching her at the time and the day before her event at the Olympics he sees her eating a Big Mac… the last thing he would imagine this girl eating!

She told him that when she was young and was stressed out or sad, her father took her to McDonalds. And to this day, when she eats a Big Mac it took her stress away.

See that’s the thing. She kept a perspective on life where it was still possible to open your eyes in the morning and have more than drudgery and bondage to look forward to even when competing in the Olympic games. If you feel like having a treat have the damn thing. Nobody’s going to say to build a diet on junk for the sake of it.

Some of these poor souls would head for the nearest tall ledge if they broke down and had a sliver of birthday cake at somebody’s party or something. I honestly believe the stress some people subject themselves to in a lifestyle that’s supposed to be enjoyable overall does them more harm than the food they avoid.[/quote]

It would also make more sense if most of the people acting that way actually LOOKED the part. Instead, most seem to barely even qualify as regular weight lifters by appearance.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
coloradosteve2 wrote:
My only gripe about this whole thread are people advocating fast food. While I can understand consuming 4000 cals per day eating steak, chicken, pork, and fish, to achieve whatever goal, I see the idea of 4000 calories as just 4000 calories being ridiculous. Nobody should be advocating putting fast food into anybodies diet, ever.

You miss the point…the most important one being the pursuit of results and not simply following an agenda regardless of what the results are.[/quote]

You, specifically, advocate including fast food into the diet of people looking to achieve their desired bodybuilding goals, in particular, those that were of very low weight and low bodyfat%. So, no, I didn’t miss anything. You have also advocated that to increase your results, you need to be at a bf of about 15% or so.

Well, I imagine if your agenda includes fast food, than, yes, it would take a higher % of bodyfat to make any gains in anyway.

Yes, I follow “agendas” to include being a devout Poliquin follower. I follow Vince Giranda’s “agenda” diet ideas along with CT’s “agenda” diet to some degree but he hates saturated fat for whatever reason. These “agendas” have produced results that have made me a happy camper.

 To some degree we must all follow somebodies "agenda" as I'm sure we don't have an a priori knowledge of what weightlifting method to use or what weightlifting is, and it is self-evident we all believe we are searching for the best results. I am for certain, though, if some has found the path to "perfect results", I know they are full of shit.   

 Do I have goals, of course, I want to max out 300 in the incline bench press, and a 450 lb deadlift without having to be at 15% bodyfat.  Hmmm, what "agendas" would work for me.  Not yours, obviously.  Should I try some of Ian King's 234234234 waves that got me a bench press max of 325?  

[quote]coloradosteve2 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
coloradosteve2 wrote:
My only gripe about this whole thread are people advocating fast food. While I can understand consuming 4000 cals per day eating steak, chicken, pork, and fish, to achieve whatever goal, I see the idea of 4000 calories as just 4000 calories being ridiculous. Nobody should be advocating putting fast food into anybodies diet, ever.

You miss the point…the most important one being the pursuit of results and not simply following an agenda regardless of what the results are.

You, specifically, advocate including fast food into the diet of people looking to achieve their desired bodybuilding goals, in particular, those that were of very low weight and low bodyfat%. So, no, I didn’t miss anything. You have also advocated that to increase your results, you need to be at a bf of about 15% or so. Well, I imagine if your agenda includes fast food, than, yes, it would take a higher % of bodyfat to make any gains in anyway.

Yes, I follow “agendas” to include being a devout Poliquin follower. I follow Vince Giranda’s “agenda” diet ideas along with CT’s “agenda” diet to some degree but he hates saturated fat for whatever reason. These “agendas” have produced results that have made me a happy camper.

 To some degree we must all follow somebodies "agenda" as I'm sure we don't have an a priori knowledge of what weightlifting method to use or what weightlifting is, and it is self-evident we all believe we are searching for the best results. I am for certain, though, if some has found the path to "perfect results", I know they are full of shit.   

 Do I have goals, of course, I want to max out 300 in the incline bench press, and a 450 lb deadlift without having to be at 15% bodyfat.  Hmmm, what "agendas" would work for me.  Not yours, obviously.  Should I try some of Ian King's 234234234 waves that got me a bench press max of 325?  [/quote]

And if you want to get huge, you could consider that Ian King’s views on bulking are not too dissimilar from the Professor.

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=781428

[quote]coloradosteve2 wrote:

You, specifically, advocate including fast food into the diet of people looking to achieve their desired bodybuilding goals, in particular, those that were of very low weight and low bodyfat%. [/quote]

What I have done is made the point that avoiding a hamburger (which is meat and fucking bread) because of some overanalytical or puritanical approach to eating makes no sense when the goal is gains in muscle mass.

If you are too basic to understand that a hamburger is not unhealthy in and of itself and that positive food choices can be made pretty much anywhere you eat, just admit it.

For instance, I have often eaten at Burger King when gaining. While you pass out at the thought, I suppose I should add that I never eat frenchfries and I ask for the meat separate from the bun. The only thing on the bun is lettuce and tomato. I drain as much grease as possible out of the meat on paper towels until the patties are dry.

The question is, why does stuff like this need to be spelled out to some of you to grasp the concept?

The concept of what food is needs to change and that is what has been stated.

[quote]
So, no, I didn’t miss anything. You have also advocated that to increase your results, you need to be at a bf of about 15% or so. Well, I imagine if your agenda includes fast food, than, yes, it would take a higher % of bodyfat to make any gains in anyway. [/quote]

Now you are just lying. I have never told anyone what body fat percentage to be at. Not ONCE.

That makes you slow and untruthful.

[quote]

Yes, I follow “agendas” to include being a devout Poliquin follower. I follow Vince Giranda’s “agenda” diet ideas along with CT’s “agenda” diet to some degree but he hates saturated fat for whatever reason. These “agendas” have produced results that have made me a happy camper.

 To some degree we must all follow somebodies "agenda" as I'm sure we don't have an a priori knowledge of what weightlifting method to use or what weightlifting is, and it is self-evident we all believe we are searching for the best results. I am for certain, though, if some has found the path to "perfect results", I know they are full of shit.   

 Do I have goals, of course, I want to max out 300 in the incline bench press, and a 450 lb deadlift without having to be at 15% bodyfat.  Hmmm, what "agendas" would work for me.  Not yours, obviously.  Should I try some of Ian King's 234234234 waves that got me a bench press max of 325?  [/quote]

I don’t give a flying shit what you do.

nice work ruining the thread. Who advocated ADDING fast food into the diet? Just because someone does not advocate AGAINST not being averse to adding fast food occassionally does not mean one adviocates adding fast food into the diet.

There is a difference, youngblood. Don;t let eating clean be your excuse against adding enough calories to grow. Nobody guves a shit how clean you ate if you look the same year after year.

And no, no one says you have to be at 15% bodyfat to make gains, but if thats what you need to be at, then so be it. Point is that don;t let a single number rule you to the point of limiting your mass and strength gains and let that become your excuse for not putting on sufficient mass and strength (Well, EXCUSE ME for not gaining more than X pounds of muscle, I was trying to stay below 12%) If you can gain at 12%, awesome.

If you can gain mass at 9%, awesome. if your bf gets close to 20% but youre adding mass and strength, well, thats the game. But if you feel your bf rising disproportionately, take a step back and re-assess. Don;t be ruled by a number.
You know, whats the fucking point of it all? One weedy kid walks in and ruins the thread.

[quote]coloradosteve2 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
coloradosteve2 wrote:
My only gripe about this whole thread are people advocating fast food. While I can understand consuming 4000 cals per day eating steak, chicken, pork, and fish, to achieve whatever goal, I see the idea of 4000 calories as just 4000 calories being ridiculous. Nobody should be advocating putting fast food into anybodies diet, ever.

You miss the point…the most important one being the pursuit of results and not simply following an agenda regardless of what the results are.

You, specifically, advocate including fast food into the diet of people looking to achieve their desired bodybuilding goals, in particular, those that were of very low weight and low bodyfat%. So, no, I didn’t miss anything. You have also advocated that to increase your results, you need to be at a bf of about 15% or so. Well, I imagine if your agenda includes fast food, than, yes, it would take a higher % of bodyfat to make any gains in anyway.

Yes, I follow “agendas” to include being a devout Poliquin follower. I follow Vince Giranda’s “agenda” diet ideas along with CT’s “agenda” diet to some degree but he hates saturated fat for whatever reason. These “agendas” have produced results that have made me a happy camper.

 To some degree we must all follow somebodies "agenda" as I'm sure we don't have an a priori knowledge of what weightlifting method to use or what weightlifting is, and it is self-evident we all believe we are searching for the best results. I am for certain, though, if some has found the path to "perfect results", I know they are full of shit.   

 Do I have goals, of course, I want to max out 300 in the incline bench press, and a 450 lb deadlift without having to be at 15% bodyfat.  Hmmm, what "agendas" would work for me.  Not yours, obviously.  Should I try some of Ian King's 234234234 waves that got me a bench press max of 325?  [/quote]

I saw these posts on a thread today. It’s from 2006.

[quote]
Reidar wrote:

My diet was as dirty as it gets. Taco Bell, Mexican places, frozen pizza, and Serious MASS weightgainer comprised a big part of it. I took the whey protein shake with dextrose and maltodextrin recommendations off of abcbodybuilding for post-workout nutrition. An average day was 5,000 calories. The only cardio I did was punching bag practice for martial arts, and the occasional sprint at the high school.

Viking69 wrote:

First off I wanna say good job, and secondly I wanna say…FINALLY.

Finally someone ate the calories that need to be eaten to gain size. Guess what types of food have calories?

Keep it up.

Professor X wrote:

Agreed.

But wait, isn’t someone going to act as if he will have pounds and pounds of loose skin and that he will have a heart attack? I mean, that is en vogue now, right?

One day, someone will get me those real world numbers of people who are truly just blowing the fuck up without ever bulking up to some degree.[/quote]

Prof, from these posts it sounds like you think that fast food is good for a bulk diet. But reading the posts above on this page I don’t think that represents your opinion exactly. Could you please clarify a bit more. I mean I can see from this thread that you are saying that we shouldn’t get too crazy about avoiding fast food but what do you think about having it regularly like Reidar did?

P.S. Reidar got great results on this kind of diet.
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1027723&pageNo=0

[quote]Brick Kiln wrote:
I saw these posts on a thread today. It’s from 2006.

Reidar wrote:

My diet was as dirty as it gets. Taco Bell, Mexican places, frozen pizza, and Serious MASS weightgainer comprised a big part of it. I took the whey protein shake with dextrose and maltodextrin recommendations off of abcbodybuilding for post-workout nutrition. An average day was 5,000 calories. The only cardio I did was punching bag practice for martial arts, and the occasional sprint at the high school.

Viking69 wrote:

First off I wanna say good job, and secondly I wanna say…FINALLY.

Finally someone ate the calories that need to be eaten to gain size. Guess what types of food have calories?

Keep it up.

Professor X wrote:

Agreed.

But wait, isn’t someone going to act as if he will have pounds and pounds of loose skin and that he will have a heart attack? I mean, that is en vogue now, right?

One day, someone will get me those real world numbers of people who are truly just blowing the fuck up without ever bulking up to some degree.

Prof, from these posts it sounds like you think that fast food is good for a bulk diet. But reading the posts above on this page I don’t think that represents your opinion exactly. Could you please clarify.

P.S. Reidar got great results on this kind of diet.
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1027723&pageNo=0

[/quote]

The main goal is to have a general understanding of what your overall goal is, what general foods you need to be eating and how you need to be training. If you happen to be some teenager with a raging metabolism, it makes no sense to eat like a dieting bodybuilder getting ready for competition.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
<<< So, no, I didn’t miss anything. You have also advocated that to increase your results, you need to be at a bf of about 15% or so. Well, I imagine if your agenda includes fast food, than, yes, it would take a higher % of bodyfat to make any gains in anyway.

Now you are just lying. I have never told anyone what body fat percentage to be at. Not ONCE. >>>[/quote]

I’m glad you jumped on that one.

I would never personally URGE anyone to eat fast food, but I also wouldn’t faint if a healthy active young person who also lifts weights did. Especially if the other option were not getting enough calories to support their training.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
The main goal is to have a general understanding of what your overall goal is, what general foods you need to be eating and how you need to be training. If you happen to be some teenager with a raging metabolism, it makes no sense to eat like a dieting bodybuilder getting ready for competition.
[/quote]

Haha I saw the reply you posted before editing. Sorry for pissing you off. I’m a student staying in a hostel, don’t know how to cook, and have been getting frustrated with the meager amount of meat I get from the food courts. Hence the question. Anyway looking forward to buying myself a foreman grill when I graduate in a few months.

Funny how some pretty obvious things have to be pointed out on every single thread on this topic…

Base your nutrition on your goals and what helps you reach them, not on some dogma just for the sake of following it.

Some people seem so hung up on details they seem incapable or unwilling to grasp the underlying concepts. Is it really important if someone ate a hamburger at some point of his bulk or gained bodyfat beyond the figure of 10% or rather the fact that everyone who has successfully managed to add a significant amount of muscle mass consumed more calories than he expended and did whatever it took to get those calories

  • even if it meant eating a hamburger once in a while
  • even if it meant breaking some rule posted in an article written by his favourite author (which most likely was meant to be applied in a totally different context anyway)
  • even if it meant gaining an (of course reasonable) amount of bodyfat to reach that goal

Approaches may and will vary in detail, basic principles like this are hard if not impossible to bypass.

As many others, I have made the mistake of overanalyzing things as well. Judging by the responses on the “Waterbury and How I Failed” thread, it is a common error. If you actually are willing to gain real world experience, though, I can’t see how at some point, rather sooner than later, you don’t get a basic feeling for what matters and what doesn’t and stop micromanaging.

Good answers to questions. I think some people fail to understand 1 diet doesn’t work for everyone, and somethings you are expressing your opinion on. People will have different opinions…no need to argue who thinks what is more impressive bodybuilding vs powerlifting. It is too completely different sport/hobbies. Just because basketball and soccer use inflatable balls doesn’t mean they use the same scoring and rulebook.

I think you get your point across more towards the end of the thread. People need to stop taking the responses as answers to their personal experiences/issues and understand it is a general answer to the concept of the question.

[quote]Jhuczko wrote:
Good answers to questions. I think some people fail to understand 1 diet doesn’t work for everyone, and somethings you are expressing your opinion on. People will have different opinions…no need to argue who thinks what is more impressive bodybuilding vs powerlifting. It is too completely different sport/hobbies. Just because basketball and soccer use inflatable balls doesn’t mean they use the same scoring and rulebook.

I think you get your point across more towards the end of the thread. People need to stop taking the responses as answers to their personal experiences/issues and understand it is a general answer to the concept of the question.[/quote]

Jhuczko has a point, I would also like to agree and state often times you’ll see people fit their own beliefs, desires, goals, and opinions onto others. Not everyone wants to be a Sumo freestyle wrestler or an Olympic bobsled driver. How one would train and eat for both fitness requirements are totally different.

If this is too complicated for reader then please see → Ditto what Jhuczko said.

Also as mentioned earlier, the terminology and ways to explain and describe things may sound different but the meaning is the same. Grasping meaning and understanding point-of-view and putting things into context is critical for any meaningful conversation. More oftentimes then not things are taken too literally or misunderstood.

[quote]michael2507 wrote:

  • even if it meant breaking some rule posted in an article written by his favourite author (which most likely was meant to be applied in a totally different context anyway)
    [/quote]

This bears repeating. Somehow it seems that it’s always the people to whom the article’s least applicable and who most easily misinterpret it, that hold so dearly to it.

[quote]kinein wrote:
<<< Jhuczko has a point, I would also like to agree and state often times you’ll see people fit their own beliefs, desires, goals, and opinions onto others. Not everyone wants to be a Sumo freestyle wrestler or an Olympic bobsled driver. How one would train and eat for both fitness requirements are totally different. >>>[/quote]

This only becomes meaningful to beginners after some decent amount of progress has been made. It doesn’t make any sense (in most cases) for a beginner to set out with sports specific methods from day one. The initial goal should almost always be to get stronger and at least somewhat bigger, meaning more muscular.

Of course where they’re starting from and where they want to end up will have some influence, but in the beginning it isn’t VERY different or at least shouldn’t be, as I see it.

I finally got around to reading the entire thread. Great discussions all around and something that T-Nation needs more of. Made me think.

lots of good info in here.

thanks for topping this, i look forward to reading it