CT & Professor X's Discussion

Training Bodybuilding
203

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
I am curious about the distinctions that are made between knowledge and muscle size. My question is not about earned knowledge as I agree that those who have gotten big have insight about the process. But rather, the use of ‘14" arms’ or weigh ‘180 lbs’ or ‘24" legs’ as somehow clear distinctions. When you consider a full range of heights of people who participate on this site, anywhere from -5’2" to 6’6"+ --those are very different people if they have the exact same measurements. The former will look “large” while the latter is rightly a beanpole. Blanket distinctions dismiss the earned knowledge of the former while applying wisdom on those who by height/frame/fat are larger.

You may argue that this applies well to body builder, but that ignores the range of goals of individuals on this website.

How often have you been wrong by looking at someone as far as whether they lift seriously? Even smaller lifters have a look about them if they train hard.

The issue isn’t just the measurement, it is about experience of the individual. Exactly what does the guy with 14" arms (assuming they aren’t a midget just so you can get over the height issue) have experience with in bodybuilding?

Did you really think no one has noticed that height is a factor in bodybuilding as far as how much you weigh?

I do not think we are far apart on this issue. I agree that there is a look. Unfortunately we are unable to judge the advice on this site through visual inspection. (Especially with the current vogue of curls and more curls in the gym, I have seen many with ‘big’ arms and little else to recommend their advice.) I have but it seems that is an ignored variable in discussions on this page. It is disheartening to read naturally tall/big guys belittle dudes that are significantly smaller in height/weight because their lifts are not as heavy. I am far more interested in bw ratio when it comes to lifts. For me it levels the playing field a bit. I know your a big guy, I am not. So I am sensitive to false pride of that can come with total weight/size alone. You probably do not get the smug stares of dudes who bench with bad form 10 lbs more that you just did, despite the fact they have 60 lbs on you.

I always look forward to your advice on this site. At the same time, I find undeadlift one of the most humble and, dare I say, hardcore. He is not huge but having started at 120 lbs, he has made impressive gains that are easily overlooked when applying blanket distinctions, as discussed above.

[/quote]

I agree with this alot. Being a powerlifter it amazes me how many people can not wait to see the big guys lift. True the numbers look huge – but when put into perspective it is much less than the little guys lift. A 300+ guy squating 900 pounds is not nearly as impressive to me as the 165 pound guy squating 800. But at a meet you see it all the time.

I am in awe of the 123 pound women this past weekend who totaled 400 kg – hell I had 55 or so pounds on them and only totaled 460.

Amount of weight lifted is all relative tell me how it relates to your bodyweight. After each meet I put my lifts and my total into a spreadsheet and then my bodyweight at weigh ins. I then evaluate how my meet went based on kg(lbs) lifted divided by my body weight. If the number went up it was a good day if it went down it is time to evaluate what I am doing and move on…

That simple.

204

[quote]firebug9 wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
I am curious about the distinctions that are made between knowledge and muscle size. My question is not about earned knowledge as I agree that those who have gotten big have insight about the process. But rather, the use of ‘14" arms’ or weigh ‘180 lbs’ or ‘24" legs’ as somehow clear distinctions. When you consider a full range of heights of people who participate on this site, anywhere from -5’2" to 6’6"+ --those are very different people if they have the exact same measurements. The former will look “large” while the latter is rightly a beanpole. Blanket distinctions dismiss the earned knowledge of the former while applying wisdom on those who by height/frame/fat are larger.

You may argue that this applies well to body builder, but that ignores the range of goals of individuals on this website.

How often have you been wrong by looking at someone as far as whether they lift seriously? Even smaller lifters have a look about them if they train hard.

The issue isn’t just the measurement, it is about experience of the individual. Exactly what does the guy with 14" arms (assuming they aren’t a midget just so you can get over the height issue) have experience with in bodybuilding?

Did you really think no one has noticed that height is a factor in bodybuilding as far as how much you weigh?

I do not think we are far apart on this issue. I agree that there is a look. Unfortunately we are unable to judge the advice on this site through visual inspection. (Especially with the current vogue of curls and more curls in the gym, I have seen many with ‘big’ arms and little else to recommend their advice.) I have but it seems that is an ignored variable in discussions on this page. It is disheartening to read naturally tall/big guys belittle dudes that are significantly smaller in height/weight because their lifts are not as heavy. I am far more interested in bw ratio when it comes to lifts. For me it levels the playing field a bit. I know your a big guy, I am not. So I am sensitive to false pride of that can come with total weight/size alone. You probably do not get the smug stares of dudes who bench with bad form 10 lbs more that you just did, despite the fact they have 60 lbs on you.

I always look forward to your advice on this site. At the same time, I find undeadlift one of the most humble and, dare I say, hardcore. He is not huge but having started at 120 lbs, he has made impressive gains that are easily overlooked when applying blanket distinctions, as discussed above.

I agree with this alot. Being a powerlifter it amazes me how many people can not wait to see the big guys lift. True the numbers look huge – but when put into perspective it is much less than the little guys lift. A 300+ guy squating 900 pounds is not nearly as impressive to me as the 165 pound guy squating 800. But at a meet you see it all the time.

I am in awe of the 123 pound women this past weekend who totaled 400 kg – hell I had 55 or so pounds on them and only totaled 460.

Amount of weight lifted is all relative tell me how it relates to your bodyweight. After each meet I put my lifts and my total into a spreadsheet and then my bodyweight at weigh ins. I then evaluate how my meet went based on kg(lbs) lifted divided by my body weight. If the number went up it was a good day if it went down it is time to evaluate what I am doing and move on…

That simple.
[/quote]

So, I was logging into the Bodybuilding section of a bodybuilding forum looking for discussions about bodybuilding…when a powerlifting discussion broke out about “relative strength”.

You can imagine my surprise.

205

[quote]Professor X wrote:
firebug9 wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
I am curious about the distinctions that are made between knowledge and muscle size. My question is not about earned knowledge as I agree that those who have gotten big have insight about the process. But rather, the use of ‘14" arms’ or weigh ‘180 lbs’ or ‘24" legs’ as somehow clear distinctions. When you consider a full range of heights of people who participate on this site, anywhere from -5’2" to 6’6"+ --those are very different people if they have the exact same measurements. The former will look “large” while the latter is rightly a beanpole. Blanket distinctions dismiss the earned knowledge of the former while applying wisdom on those who by height/frame/fat are larger.

You may argue that this applies well to body builder, but that ignores the range of goals of individuals on this website.

How often have you been wrong by looking at someone as far as whether they lift seriously? Even smaller lifters have a look about them if they train hard.

The issue isn’t just the measurement, it is about experience of the individual. Exactly what does the guy with 14" arms (assuming they aren’t a midget just so you can get over the height issue) have experience with in bodybuilding?

Did you really think no one has noticed that height is a factor in bodybuilding as far as how much you weigh?

I do not think we are far apart on this issue. I agree that there is a look. Unfortunately we are unable to judge the advice on this site through visual inspection. (Especially with the current vogue of curls and more curls in the gym, I have seen many with ‘big’ arms and little else to recommend their advice.) I have but it seems that is an ignored variable in discussions on this page. It is disheartening to read naturally tall/big guys belittle dudes that are significantly smaller in height/weight because their lifts are not as heavy. I am far more interested in bw ratio when it comes to lifts. For me it levels the playing field a bit. I know your a big guy, I am not. So I am sensitive to false pride of that can come with total weight/size alone. You probably do not get the smug stares of dudes who bench with bad form 10 lbs more that you just did, despite the fact they have 60 lbs on you.

I always look forward to your advice on this site. At the same time, I find undeadlift one of the most humble and, dare I say, hardcore. He is not huge but having started at 120 lbs, he has made impressive gains that are easily overlooked when applying blanket distinctions, as discussed above.

I agree with this alot. Being a powerlifter it amazes me how many people can not wait to see the big guys lift. True the numbers look huge – but when put into perspective it is much less than the little guys lift. A 300+ guy squating 900 pounds is not nearly as impressive to me as the 165 pound guy squating 800. But at a meet you see it all the time.

I am in awe of the 123 pound women this past weekend who totaled 400 kg – hell I had 55 or so pounds on them and only totaled 460.

Amount of weight lifted is all relative tell me how it relates to your bodyweight. After each meet I put my lifts and my total into a spreadsheet and then my bodyweight at weigh ins. I then evaluate how my meet went based on kg(lbs) lifted divided by my body weight. If the number went up it was a good day if it went down it is time to evaluate what I am doing and move on…

That simple.

So, I was logging into the Bodybuilding section of a bodybuilding forum looking for discussions about bodybuilding…when a powerlifting discussion broke out about “relative strength”.

You can imagine my surprise.[/quote]

Sorry I thought it was relavent to the discussion, as I was speaking to the fact that just because someone is smaller does not mean they have any less to offer in advise.

I will step out of the conversation now.

206

He can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you guys are tatooing these numbers on Professor X when that isn’t the actual point he’s making. He’s not saying if you bench 399 you have no business speaking until it’s 401. He’s also not putting hard measurements on it either, meaning as soon as you get that last quarter inch on whatever bodypart or that last 5 pounds of mass you are now qualified to have an opinion.

I can’t imagine him not respecting anybody who has made and is making SIGNIFICANT progress in any of these areas. He makes these statements as illustrations of how somebody who has paid no dues under the iron and has little to commend their authority should be more circumspect in how they leap to respond in some of these threads.

207

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
I am curious about the distinctions that are made between knowledge and muscle size. My question is not about earned knowledge as I agree that those who have gotten big have insight about the process. But rather, the use of ‘14" arms’ or weigh ‘180 lbs’ or ‘24" legs’ as somehow clear distinctions. When you consider a full range of heights of people who participate on this site, anywhere from -5’2" to 6’6"+ --those are very different people if they have the exact same measurements. The former will look “large” while the latter is rightly a beanpole. Blanket distinctions dismiss the earned knowledge of the former while applying wisdom on those who by height/frame/fat are larger.

You may argue that this applies well to body builder, but that ignores the range of goals of individuals on this website.[/quote]

It depends. What/who are we talking about here? The 5’2 MAN with 14 inch arms who is a top power lifter in their weight class and who has made the conscious choice not to get any bigger or go up a weight class? If such a person even exists on this website, I would give credence to their advice on improving relative strength, an area they have excelled in. Still not on actually building a PHYSIQUE.

Because, whether or not they could build an excellent physique, they have chosen not to. The 120 lb woman with 14 inch arms is an entirely different proposition once again. I do agree that this is only a bodybuilding site in part, though some people may see its expansion as an unwelcome devlopment.

But I don’t think people are really making the blanket distinctions you think they are. The point being made is that you lose credibility talking about how to get big if you’re not big yourself OR you haven’t had significant and documented experience training others and putting appreciable size on them. No one is saying that smaller guys know nothing or have nothing to offer as a more general matter.

208

I did not try to ‘pin’ the numbers on PX, but he did volunteer one and I wanted to know his opinion. I do appreciate firebugs insight. But the question has to do as much with bodybuilding and not just with olympic lifting. It is about earned knowledge–that researched through gains and failures in the gym–and the blanket distinctions used to judge is they are worthy of speaking or not.

The question then is how to judge SIGNIFICANT progress? How do we know when the dues have been paid?

My argument is that size alone, be it body part or weight, is not the end-all measure of knowledge. Yet, when push comes to shove, this is what is being used to determine creditability.

209

[quote]firebug9 wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
I am curious about the distinctions that are made between knowledge and muscle size. My question is not about earned knowledge as I agree that those who have gotten big have insight about the process. But rather, the use of ‘14" arms’ or weigh ‘180 lbs’ or ‘24" legs’ as somehow clear distinctions. When you consider a full range of heights of people who participate on this site, anywhere from -5’2" to 6’6"+ --those are very different people if they have the exact same measurements. The former will look “large” while the latter is rightly a beanpole. Blanket distinctions dismiss the earned knowledge of the former while applying wisdom on those who by height/frame/fat are larger.

I do not think we are far apart on this issue. I agree that there is a look. Unfortunately we are unable to judge the advice on this site through visual inspection. (Especially with the current vogue of curls and more curls in the gym, I have seen many with ‘big’ arms and little else to recommend their advice.) I have but it seems that is an ignored variable in discussions on this page. It is disheartening to read naturally tall/big guys belittle dudes that are significantly smaller in height/weight because their lifts are not as heavy. I am far more interested in bw ratio when it comes to lifts. For me it levels the playing field a bit. I know your a big guy, I am not. So I am sensitive to false pride of that can come with total weight/size alone. You probably do not get the smug stares of dudes who bench with bad form 10 lbs more that you just did, despite the fact they have 60 lbs on you.

I always look forward to your advice on this site. At the same time, I find undeadlift one of the most humble and, dare I say, hardcore. He is not huge but having started at 120 lbs, he has made impressive gains that are easily overlooked when applying blanket distinctions, as discussed above.

I agree with this alot. Being a powerlifter it amazes me how many people can not wait to see the big guys lift. True the numbers look huge – but when put into perspective it is much less than the little guys lift. A 300+ guy squating 900 pounds is not nearly as impressive to me as the 165 pound guy squating 800. But at a meet you see it all the time.

I am in awe of the 123 pound women this past weekend who totaled 400 kg – hell I had 55 or so pounds on them and only totaled 460.

Amount of weight lifted is all relative tell me how it relates to your bodyweight. After each meet I put my lifts and my total into a spreadsheet and then my bodyweight at weigh ins. I then evaluate how my meet went based on kg(lbs) lifted divided by my body weight. If the number went up it was a good day if it went down it is time to evaluate what I am doing and move on…

That simple.
[/quote]

Just a quick comment and I’ll step out, b/c as Prof X said, this thread is supposed to be about bodybuilding.

Relative strength, ie poundage lifted vs BW, is supposed to be, as Tex Ag said, an equalizer. But consider a few things: BW isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Is a 200-lb guy benching 450 more impressive than a 275-lb guy benching 500? Most “relative strength” people would say yes, absolutely. But what if I told you the 200-lb guy was 5’5" with T-rex arms, meaning he has a tiny ROM and great leverage for the lift, and the 275-lb’er was 6’4" with long arms? BW isn’t everything, and in the end (to me at least), it’s about how much weight you put up, not your “relative strength index”. Furthermore, the law of diminishing returns means more and more boundaries need to be pushed to lift heavier and heavier weight. In other words, we all know it’s easier to go from 200-300 than 300-400, or 400-500, etc - in any lift, regardless of BW. So when we’re talking world-class lifts being performed, a heavier BW is necessary to be able to continue to progress.

That being said, I’d still be DAMN impressed to see a 165-lb guy squat 800. :open_mouth:

210

I should throw in that Firebug does move some poundages that ALOT of the guys here would be thrilled to be able to get. She is no armchair expert.

211

whatever i could kick her ass

212

Seems once again complexity is made of a fairly simple concept: (hmm, so many ways to say it…) – the integrity of one’s opinion correlates with the effectiveness of one’s efforts.

&

no matter how hi-falutin one’s calculations get, 14" arms are not going to turn the heads of too many serious and experienced bodybuilders </stating the obvious>

213

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
My argument is that size alone, be it body part or weight, is not the end-all measure of knowledge. Yet, when push comes to shove, this is what is being used to determine creditability.[/quote]

We’re concerning bodybuilding, not powerlifting or anything else. What else do you think would be used for credibility in bodybuilding?

I want to be a bodybuilder. I see a guy with 14" arms, and status quo physique pressing 400 or whatever. Then the guy with 20" arms and great physique is on the other side doing his preachers or whatever.

Sure, the small guy is impressive in his lifts, but I don’t give a shit about lift numbers because I’m a BODYBUILDER. I’ll get my advice from the guy with the 20" arms package since that’s my focus. Simple logic, Tex.

However, if my goals were to powerlift, who do you think I would go to?

Sigh.

214

So i was looking through X’s profile because i keep hearing how big he is and i was very surprised when i came to his pictures

because he is black… i was expecting (for some reason) a long haired white man, and instead got a bald black man

how old are u X? and why havne’t u yet competed in a show?

215

[quote]Fulmen wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
My argument is that size alone, be it body part or weight, is not the end-all measure of knowledge. Yet, when push comes to shove, this is what is being used to determine creditability.

We’re concerning bodybuilding, not powerlifting or anything else. What else do you think would be used for credibility in bodybuilding?

I want to be a bodybuilder. I see a guy with 14" arms, and status quo physique pressing 400 or whatever. Then the guy with 20" arms and great physique is on the other side doing his preachers or whatever.

Sure, the small guy is impressive in his lifts, but I don’t give a shit about lift numbers because I’m a BODYBUILDER. I’ll get my advice from the guy with the 20" arms package since that’s my focus. Simple logic, Tex.

However, if my goals were to powerlift, who do you think I would go to?

Sigh.[/quote]

I think you’re drawing too stark a contrast in this instance. Bodybuilders, especially young inexperienced bodybuilders could learn from an experienced powerlifter. I’m not totally discounting what you said, but I wouldn’t be so quick to write off somebody moving a few times what I could.

216

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Fulmen wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
My argument is that size alone, be it body part or weight, is not the end-all measure of knowledge. Yet, when push comes to shove, this is what is being used to determine creditability.

We’re concerning bodybuilding, not powerlifting or anything else. What else do you think would be used for credibility in bodybuilding?

I want to be a bodybuilder. I see a guy with 14" arms, and status quo physique pressing 400 or whatever. Then the guy with 20" arms and great physique is on the other side doing his preachers or whatever.

Sure, the small guy is impressive in his lifts, but I don’t give a shit about lift numbers because I’m a BODYBUILDER. I’ll get my advice from the guy with the 20" arms package since that’s my focus. Simple logic, Tex.

However, if my goals were to powerlift, who do you think I would go to?

Sigh.

I think you’re drawing too stark a contrast in this instance. Bodybuilders, especially young inexperienced bodybuilders could learn from an experienced powerlifter. I’m not totally discounting what you said, but I wouldn’t be so quick to write off somebody moving a few times what I could.[/quote]

Well, I tried to make it a black/white statement, but it didn’t turn out that way. I wouldn’t write off someone quick like that, either.

I was just trying to elucidate the point of getting the information relating to your goals.

217

[quote]HotCarl28 wrote:
So i was looking through X’s profile because i keep hearing how big he is and i was very surprised when i came to his pictures

because he is black… i was expecting (for some reason) a long haired white man, and instead got a bald black man

how old are u X? and why havne’t u yet competed in a show?[/quote]

that’s alittle weird cause i checked his pics today and had the same question…how old are you X, you kinda remind me of a cross between johnnie jackson and flex wheeler. you’re a big man.

218

Wow, I just looked at X’s photos. You are large. I’d heard so, but wow.

Bulking does work huh.
Lol

219

i have been on a 40 year bulk, but i have yet to cut. any suggestions?

220

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Wow, I just looked at X’s photos. You are large. I’d heard so, but wow.

Bulking does work huh.
Lol[/quote]

but what about the wheels? hahaha

221

I guess what is being said is we do not have a way of understanding one’s credentials beyond size. Okay.

As far as taking the conversation beyond bodybuilding, the length of this tread has wavered beyond bodybuilding in its discussion about information on this site and how it has been interpreted, misinterpreted and handed out in several different forums and discussions.

I did not know that all of a sudden the conversation would be limited to one particular forum within the entirety of the website. I spoke up because this thread was dealing with an issue -information and interpretation- that effects the entire site.

Y’all can get back to looking at X’s photos.

222

[quote]HotCarl28 wrote:
whatever i could kick her ass[/quote]

I know I said I would step out but I have to comment here –

Promises, Promises…

   and let me know when you want to step on the platform big boy ;P