Crossfit Football

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Hey,

I have been off and on reading information and criticism about crossfit, and stumbled upon the following website

In my mind, this seems to address its criticisms of making small male athletes and having too much emphasis on GPP.

  1. There are 2 parts to each workout
    a) a STRENGTH component performed first (i.e. Squats 3x5)
    b) a DAILY other component performed 15 min later (i.e. Heavy Fran)

  2. The daily part has more emphasis on shorter times with more weight or intensity

  3. The eating plan is more in line with what larger athletes would require (lots of protein, etc.)

Comments?

Thoughts?

2

crossfit is just a fad.will not improve the game of football.power and speed is the game of football not muscle endurance.

3

[quote]pw34 wrote:
crossfit is just a fad.will not improve the game of football.power and speed is the game of football not muscle endurance.[/quote]

You didn’t read the website, did you :confused:

4

I read it, just didn’t think it was that great. I think some of the percentages are way off for the strength work (4x8@80% of 1 rep max, I know of very very few people who could do that, for instance that would be a 500 squatter doing 4x8x400, maybe they could get the reps for one set but not 4.

also dont like the fact that the strength work seems the same for every position, how many pullups do you think a 300 pound lineman is going to be able to do when the strength work calls for 3 sets to failure?

as far as the workout of the day, there is no real speed or explosion work, just endurance/conditioning, most people with a fairly high strength level wont get much out of 5x5x185 on power cleans. What plyos that are in the program are done at very low levels in circuits, basically taking a good explosion exercise and turning it into an inferior conditioning one.

It’s better than regular cross fit as it at least tries to address maximum strength but still has some pretty large holes just like any cookie cutter program will.

5

from an in-season WOD:

100% intensity on 50 yard sprints x 10, with 30-45 seconds rest… IN-SEASON ← HAH.

the problem with crossfit is the WOD’s… badly designed WOD’s will make or break your program… WOD’s such as the above WO, are too taxing in-season, increase risk of injury, and have no reason even being prescribed considering how much sprinting goes on in practice running routes/drills/whatever… considering these WOD’s are not even position specific, it makes no sense… get an o-lineman doing some of this stuff and you have catastrophe.

something crossfittish can be great in the off-season… building work capacity as you build strength will carry over bigtime into the season, you dont need crossfit for that… but crossfit in its cookie-cutter program/WOD’s might actually be able to work in the off-season somehow, but i still dont like it… its much better to individualize training, as everybody’s strengths/weaknesses are not the same, nor are the work capacities… getting an insanely explosive running back to run 10 50’s at 100% intensity with 30-45 seconds rest in between could easily lead to injury.

peace

6

[quote]Canada87 wrote:
Hey,

I have been off and on reading information and criticism about crossfit, and stumbled upon the following website

In my mind, this seems to address its criticisms of making small male athletes and having too much emphasis on GPP.

  1. There are 2 parts to each workout
    a) a STRENGTH component performed first (i.e. Squats 3x5)
    b) a DAILY other component performed 15 min later (i.e. Heavy Fran)

  2. The daily part has more emphasis on shorter times with more weight or intensity

  3. The eating plan is more in line with what larger athletes would require (lots of protein, etc.)

Comments?

Thoughts?[/quote]

Anyone with a basic understanding of the energy systems used in a football game wouldn’t have a football player waste their time with something like a Fran.

7

[quote]thekast wrote:
pw34 wrote:
crossfit is just a fad.will not improve the game of football.power and speed is the game of football not muscle endurance.

You didn’t read the website, did you :/[/quote]

Today’s workout is:
4 rounds for time:

Max Rep Bench Press 225 lbs
Max Rep Pull Ups
15 GHD Back Extensions
250 meter row

That is absolutely retarded for football. Football plays last on average 4.5 seconds with 30-45 seconds in between. How does this in anyway duplicate that? This routine will heavilly tax the anaerobic-lactic energy system, which is the only system not heavily used in football. There is also very little here that is football specific. I’ve never seen a football player row on the field, so why is that used instead of running?

8

Stick to sprints, football agility drills, and heavy explosive lifting…crossfit is a waste of time

9

[quote]azbulldog wrote:
Stick to sprints, football agility drills, and heavy explosive lifting…crossfit is a waste of time[/quote]

True say. Why don’t you here of other people cross fitting for football?

10

i am the creator/programmer of CrossFit Football so what questions do you have? I am not sure if you need an clarification about CrossFit Football but ask away.

CrossFit Football is about creating really strong, fast athletes that have incredible work capacity. The program cycles depending on what time of the year it is.

Quote…"Today’s workout is:
4 rounds for time:

Max Rep Bench Press 225 lbs
Max Rep Pull Ups
15 GHD Back Extensions
250 meter row

That is absolutely retarded for football. Football plays last on average 4.5 seconds with 30-45 seconds in between. How does this in anyway duplicate that? This routine will heavily tax the anaerobic-lactic energy system, which is the only system not heavily used in football. There is also very little here that is football specific. I’ve never seen a football player row on the field, so why is that used instead of running?"

Have you ever played football? Been an 18 play drive? Had to run the ball 12 times in row? That will tax you anaerobic-lactic energy system. When you train for football you to attack all 3 energy systems, as football will tax all 3.

Why would be row? Maybe to save the pounding off of the joints. And have you every used a C2 rower? It is not fun and very hard. The workouts are designed to tap all 3 energy systems. Many of the workouts mimic the time constraints of Football, and many go outside of it to push the limits of the players. Quarters are played in 15 mins…most of the workouts last less than 15 mins so they fit perfectly with in the needs of a football player. When we decided to not rest and just hammer the workouts it created better work capacity over the course of the game.

How man pull ups can a 300 lbs football player do? I can do 23 strict and 36 kipping.

As for the percentages I do these workouts, if you want to get strong then you have to push the boundaries of what is possible. Try to squatting 3x10 at 80 % plus and shit gets religious, Jesus might stop you to ask if he can work in. Want to get strong lift heavy weights for lots of reps. There are thousands of people doing these workouts and they have been for months. I get the emails daily from individuals and teams that are crushing it. Dont fear what you dont know or is different.

Let me hear your qualifications for knowing what works for football. Mine are pretty good as 9 year starter in the NFL.

I am here because I read T-Nation daily and the enjoy the info and the post articles from it because they make sense.

So lets here the questions or if you have some bashing comments lets here what the keyboard samurais got to say.

John

11

[quote]Welbourn wrote:
i am the creator/programmer of CrossFit Football so what questions do you have? I am not sure if you need an clarification about CrossFit Football but ask away.

CrossFit Football is about creating really strong, fast athletes that have incredible work capacity. The program cycles depending on what time of the year it is.

Quote…"Today’s workout is:
4 rounds for time:

Max Rep Bench Press 225 lbs
Max Rep Pull Ups
15 GHD Back Extensions
250 meter row

That is absolutely retarded for football. Football plays last on average 4.5 seconds with 30-45 seconds in between. How does this in anyway duplicate that? This routine will heavily tax the anaerobic-lactic energy system, which is the only system not heavily used in football. There is also very little here that is football specific. I’ve never seen a football player row on the field, so why is that used instead of running?"

Have you ever played football? Been an 18 play drive? Had to run the ball 12 times in row? That will tax you anaerobic-lactic energy system. When you train for football you to attack all 3 energy systems, as football will tax all 3.

Why would be row? Maybe to save the pounding off of the joints. And have you every used a C2 rower? It is not fun and very hard. The workouts are designed to tap all 3 energy systems. Many of the workouts mimic the time constraints of Football, and many go outside of it to push the limits of the players. Quarters are played in 15 mins…most of the workouts last less than 15 mins so they fit perfectly with in the needs of a football player. When we decided to not rest and just hammer the workouts it created better work capacity over the course of the game.

How man pull ups can a 300 lbs football player do? I can do 23 strict and 36 kipping.

As for the percentages I do these workouts, if you want to get strong then you have to push the boundaries of what is possible. Try to squatting 3x10 at 80 % plus and shit gets religious, Jesus might stop you to ask if he can work in. Want to get strong lift heavy weights for lots of reps. There are thousands of people doing these workouts and they have been for months. I get the emails daily from individuals and teams that are crushing it. Dont fear what you dont know or is different.

Let me hear your qualifications for knowing what works for football. Mine are pretty good as 9 year starter in the NFL.

I am here because I read T-Nation daily and the enjoy the info and the post articles from it because they make sense.

So lets here the questions or if you have some bashing comments lets here what the keyboard samurais got to say.

John
[/quote]

ill bite…

why aren’t there position specific WOD’s, instead of just one generic WOD?

why do you guys use a strict weight in the WOD’s, such as 5 rounds of 185 power cleans for time, rather than a percentage, considering the strength levels vary based on position?

i don’t get how you guys come up with in-season WOD workouts… i mean how do you even justify a one-size fits all WOD while in-season? off-season makes more sense, but i cant comprehend in-season.

what team did you play for, whats your name?

from website:

[quote]
How do we know CrossFit Football’s programming works? Because it has been designed by NFL players and some of the top coaches in the world. Not only has it been created by top athletes, but it has been used to compete at the highest levels of professional sports. The utility of this program is not theoretical; it has not been designed by someone that thinks it might work, but by athletes and coaches that have dominated at the highest levels of competitive athletics.[/quote]

chances are, in your development leading up to and including the NFL, you did not use crossfit football… since it didn’t exist… and most football s&c coaches have not utilized anything similar to crossfit football i would bet… so how long has this system existed to make it unparalleled in the industry, before it became public?

peace

12

In my whole time training for football, high school through NFL, we never did position specific lifts or training. All players trained to be really strong and fast, regardless of position, position specific happens in practice. It doesnt matter what position you play, you always do better by being strong and fast.

We used fixed weights because it gives us a way to measure performance that is consistent. And because there are no percentages on the football field, and the little guys have to sometimes battle the big guys and vice versa. There are more then a few ways to get strong, strong men lift stones and other fixed objects, sometimes there are places that percentages dont apply. But we do mix it up.

Our goal is increase and maintain strength through out the season, this was the training routine i used in season, and i always made gains for the first half of the season. The in-season was my season routine and always worked for me and the others that used it.

And if you saw my screen, WELBOURN and I signed it John. You can google me. I played 10 years for Eagles, Chiefs and Patriots, i got hurt in my last year with the Pats. If you read the website it gave my name and bio. The program was created with the help of Mark Rippetoe, Raphael Ruiz, Kelly Starrett and Max Mormont, with influences of Todd Rice, Mark Verstagen, Tom Shaw, Tom Kanavy, Mike Wolf, Vasso Chronis, Jeff Hurd and some of the finest coaches I have ever come across.

CrossFit was similar to the style of training that i used through my career. We always lifted weights, sprinted and did metabolic conditioning. These metabolic conditioning routines were a lot like the metcon wods of CrossFit. The training we did for football, always used Olympic lifted, barbell lifted, sprinted, agility drills and gymnastics for body control, similar to CrossFit.

And it is a free website that offers training for people, i am amazed that people would be so angry about it. Especially, people that never played football at a high level. I bet if i charged for the book or the website people would be complimentary.

What is your name and your football experience?

ill bite…

why aren’t there position specific WOD’s, instead of just one generic WOD?

why do you guys use a strict weight in the WOD’s, such as 5 rounds of 185 power cleans for time, rather than a percentage, considering the strength levels vary based on position?

i don’t get how you guys come up with in-season WOD workouts… i mean how do you even justify a one-size fits all WOD while in-season? off-season makes more sense, but i cant comprehend in-season.

what team did you play for, whats your name?

from website:

How do we know CrossFit Football’s programming works? Because it has been designed by NFL players and some of the top coaches in the world. Not only has it been created by top athletes, but it has been used to compete at the highest levels of professional sports. The utility of this program is not theoretical; it has not been designed by someone that thinks it might work, but by athletes and coaches that have dominated at the highest levels of competitive athletics.

chances are, in your development leading up to and including the NFL, you did not use crossfit football… since it didn’t exist… and most football s&c coaches have not utilized anything similar to crossfit football i would bet… so how long has this system existed to make it unparalleled in the industry, before it became public?

peace[/quote]

13

[quote]adarqui wrote:
Welbourn wrote:
i am the creator/programmer of CrossFit Football so what questions do you have? I am not sure if you need an clarification about CrossFit Football but ask away.

CrossFit Football is about creating really strong, fast athletes that have incredible work capacity. The program cycles depending on what time of the year it is.

Quote…"Today’s workout is:
4 rounds for time:

Max Rep Bench Press 225 lbs
Max Rep Pull Ups
15 GHD Back Extensions
250 meter row

That is absolutely retarded for football. Football plays last on average 4.5 seconds with 30-45 seconds in between. How does this in anyway duplicate that? This routine will heavily tax the anaerobic-lactic energy system, which is the only system not heavily used in football. There is also very little here that is football specific. I’ve never seen a football player row on the field, so why is that used instead of running?"

Have you ever played football? Been an 18 play drive? Had to run the ball 12 times in row? That will tax you anaerobic-lactic energy system. When you train for football you to attack all 3 energy systems, as football will tax all 3.

Why would be row? Maybe to save the pounding off of the joints. And have you every used a C2 rower? It is not fun and very hard. The workouts are designed to tap all 3 energy systems. Many of the workouts mimic the time constraints of Football, and many go outside of it to push the limits of the players. Quarters are played in 15 mins…most of the workouts last less than 15 mins so they fit perfectly with in the needs of a football player. When we decided to not rest and just hammer the workouts it created better work capacity over the course of the game.

How man pull ups can a 300 lbs football player do? I can do 23 strict and 36 kipping.

As for the percentages I do these workouts, if you want to get strong then you have to push the boundaries of what is possible. Try to squatting 3x10 at 80 % plus and shit gets religious, Jesus might stop you to ask if he can work in. Want to get strong lift heavy weights for lots of reps. There are thousands of people doing these workouts and they have been for months. I get the emails daily from individuals and teams that are crushing it. Dont fear what you dont know or is different.

Let me hear your qualifications for knowing what works for football. Mine are pretty good as 9 year starter in the NFL.

I am here because I read T-Nation daily and the enjoy the info and the post articles from it because they make sense.

So lets here the questions or if you have some bashing comments lets here what the keyboard samurais got to say.

John

ill bite…

why aren’t there position specific WOD’s, instead of just one generic WOD?

why do you guys use a strict weight in the WOD’s, such as 5 rounds of 185 power cleans for time, rather than a percentage, considering the strength levels vary based on position?

i don’t get how you guys come up with in-season WOD workouts… i mean how do you even justify a one-size fits all WOD while in-season? off-season makes more sense, but i cant comprehend in-season.

what team did you play for, whats your name?

from website:

How do we know CrossFit Football’s programming works? Because it has been designed by NFL players and some of the top coaches in the world. Not only has it been created by top athletes, but it has been used to compete at the highest levels of professional sports. The utility of this program is not theoretical; it has not been designed by someone that thinks it might work, but by athletes and coaches that have dominated at the highest levels of competitive athletics.

chances are, in your development leading up to and including the NFL, you did not use crossfit football… since it didn’t exist… and most football s&c coaches have not utilized anything similar to crossfit football i would bet… so how long has this system existed to make it unparalleled in the industry, before it became public?

peace[/quote]

Yeah If I was a kid looking to get strong for American football I dont think i would follow this. Football has many different positions and body types and a crossfit program just doesnt make sense to me. I think that if done smart crossfit can be great for a guy thats looking to be a jack of all trades but for football? I dont know… I would probably stick with my fellow jersey boy Joe DeFranco. He’s got a longgggg list of success stories and his program is nothing like this.

14

[quote]Welbourn wrote:
i am the creator/programmer of CrossFit Football so what questions do you have? I am not sure if you need an clarification about CrossFit Football but ask away.

CrossFit Football is about creating really strong, fast athletes that have incredible work capacity. The program cycles depending on what time of the year it is.

Quote…"Today’s workout is:
4 rounds for time:

Max Rep Bench Press 225 lbs
Max Rep Pull Ups
15 GHD Back Extensions
250 meter row

That is absolutely retarded for football. Football plays last on average 4.5 seconds with 30-45 seconds in between. How does this in anyway duplicate that? This routine will heavily tax the anaerobic-lactic energy system, which is the only system not heavily used in football. There is also very little here that is football specific. I’ve never seen a football player row on the field, so why is that used instead of running?"

Have you ever played football? Been an 18 play drive? Had to run the ball 12 times in row? That will tax you anaerobic-lactic energy system. When you train for football you to attack all 3 energy systems, as football will tax all 3.

Why would be row? Maybe to save the pounding off of the joints. And have you every used a C2 rower? It is not fun and very hard. The workouts are designed to tap all 3 energy systems. Many of the workouts mimic the time constraints of Football, and many go outside of it to push the limits of the players. Quarters are played in 15 mins…most of the workouts last less than 15 mins so they fit perfectly with in the needs of a football player. When we decided to not rest and just hammer the workouts it created better work capacity over the course of the game.

How man pull ups can a 300 lbs football player do? I can do 23 strict and 36 kipping.

As for the percentages I do these workouts, if you want to get strong then you have to push the boundaries of what is possible. Try to squatting 3x10 at 80 % plus and shit gets religious, Jesus might stop you to ask if he can work in. Want to get strong lift heavy weights for lots of reps. There are thousands of people doing these workouts and they have been for months. I get the emails daily from individuals and teams that are crushing it. Dont fear what you dont know or is different.

Let me hear your qualifications for knowing what works for football. Mine are pretty good as 9 year starter in the NFL.

I am here because I read T-Nation daily and the enjoy the info and the post articles from it because they make sense.

So lets here the questions or if you have some bashing comments lets here what the keyboard samurais got to say.

John
[/quote]

John

My question how do you feel that one workout can be affective for every position in football?
I understand you were a lineman correct? Would your workout really be that similiar to a reciever?
Also how do you choose the workout of the day? is there a certain structure you follow weekly or is it kept random?

15

16

420×629 55.8 KB

Another picture

This was for contextual data.

I want to know, other than yourself, who else helped develop this program?

17

[quote]Welbourn wrote:
Have you ever played football? Been an 18 play drive? Had to run the ball 12 times in row?[/quote]

If those things happened very often you would have a good argument. As it is, those are extremely rare.

I’m not going to be disrespectful, because as you said it is free. I also haven’t bothered to read the website because I honestly have never been big on crossfit. I do want to point out that in the time I’ve played football, I’ve never wished I could trade my speed or strength for somebody else’s endurance. I’m not trying to say endurance has no value. I just feel that other things are much higher priorities.

Like I said, I didn’t read your site, and am not trying to bash you, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

18

andrew darqui, assisted with training of ~30 athletes getting ready for the nfl combine/pro days in 2006… trained a bunch of football players from various positions from 2007-2009 (not-nfl).

if you took my comments as “angry towards crossfit football” then you have clearly failed to comprehend my post…

i don’t understand that paragraph… how is measuring performance inconsistent with a percentage based lift… either a percentage of bodyweight or a percentage of current 1RM? ok bodyweight/1RM can change, but “5 reps with 185 on power clean” can be vastly different between positions (strength/mass)… i never mentioned position-specific lifts, I referred individual-specific loading… one-size fits all loading doesn’t make much sense to me… i mean you could always go heavier or light on the weight given by the WOD, but it would be better if that was already implemented beforehand, to eliminate guesswork.

could you explain to me how this is a good in-season workout, i’m just curious:

also one more thing, you mention these coaches:

[quote]
The program was created with the help of Mark Rippetoe, Raphael Ruiz, Kelly Starrett and Max Mormont, with influences of Todd Rice, Mark Verstagen, Tom Shaw, Tom Kanavy, Mike Wolf, Vasso Chronis, Jeff Hurd and some of the finest coaches I have ever come across.[/quote]

what exactly did they create? i mean, the WOD’s follow what kind of progression, other than a bust-your-ass-nearly-every-day progression? i don’t see how that would be too hard to develop IMO, no offense to them.

;0

peace

19

i like how none of the vets are gonna touch this with a 10 foot pole

20

“what exactly did they create? i mean, the WOD’s follow what kind of progression, other than a bust-your-ass-nearly-every-day progression? i don’t see how that would be too hard to develop IMO, no offense to them.” - adarqui

I don’t think the typical crossfit enthusiast is really into muscle building as obsessively as the average Testosterone reader. Crossfit, in my opinion, attracts people who want to be “hardcore” about their workouts but don’t necessarily know a lot about fitness. People here complain of how male crossfit physiques are wimpy and don’t contain nearly enough muscle for our tastes. Most women on the other hand probably think those lean and slightly to very ripped bodies are just fine. Plus women seem to get fucking sexy doing their WODs.

Bottom line: crossfit goers are too cool to develop their own workout of the day.

Just my two cents on the subject if anyone cares. And since I have no knowledge about football related conditioning at all, I cannot give my opinion on the crossfit football matter.