What about my walking out of the Excel office? Good heel strike and pelvic rhythm. Textbook form!
[quote]jackreape wrote:
Perhaps if Eric increased his protein to 1.9 grams/kb bodyweight from 1.7 and carefully checked his glute hamstring tie in to verify his bodyfat level, while really going for the mind muscle connection during his leg extension warmups, he could make sure his neurological firing patterns were up to the judges standards.
Eric needs to stop attacking heavy weights, go for the sinewy lower back development, and maybe use the smith machine more.
Amazing…[/quote]
That’s funny. Eric’s lift get three white lights, all the rest of you idiots can go pound sand.
Hey Eric,
i tried the Cressey Salute and it really made my speed pulls a lot faster. I think it triggers and activates some of my neurons or something but its a good psych up. I tried doing it as fast as I can.
[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
DS 007 wrote:
this is the same attitude that has reduced united states (olympic) weightlifting - USAW - to little more than a joke internationally. the sport is filled, almost exclusively, with coaches who focus on FORM rather than on the task of developing the physical strength required to move loads on par with top lifters from china, greece, former soviet-bloc nations, iran, etc.
this change in philosophy began in the mid-70’s and USAW has never recovered.
i see this attitude at meet after meet after meet. a lifter will pop a big PR or even a winning lift, hell, i’ve even seen american record lifts inspire comments from coaches like, “sloppy” or “his form was BAD!” or “seemed a bit out front…” insane. in short: every coach now residing at the USOC should be FIRED. every one of them.
don’t let this attitude creep into powerlifting. you’ll never recover if you do. o-lifting and powerlifting have one thing in common: they have officials NOT judges.
they ensure that the lifts are completed within the parameters established by the existing rules. they don’t award style points or judge how technically sound the lift is. it ain’t figure skating folks. the guys who lift the most weight win.
you heard wrong…
[/quote]
i didn’t HEAR, asshole. i see. i know. this is not an original thought. for every article like the one pendlay wrote there are 10 by people like bill starr (every heard of him?). read his fairly recent article in milo. i respect glenn and his lifters. but i disagree with him here.
i’ve trained at the OTC and i know what goes on there. i know three lifters there NOW and they share my thoughts. so know of what you speak of before you presume to do it. one article doesn’t make fact, no matter who pens it. we all know that you are a legenday internet lifter. so thanks for the expert opinion.
[quote]bomber221 wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
DS 007 wrote:
this is the same attitude that has reduced united states (olympic) weightlifting - USAW - to little more than a joke internationally. the sport is filled, almost exclusively, with coaches who focus on FORM rather than on the task of developing the physical strength required to move loads on par with top lifters from china, greece, former soviet-bloc nations, iran, etc.
this change in philosophy began in the mid-70’s and USAW has never recovered.
i see this attitude at meet after meet after meet. a lifter will pop a big PR or even a winning lift, hell, i’ve even seen american record lifts inspire comments from coaches like, “sloppy” or “his form was BAD!” or “seemed a bit out front…” insane. in short: every coach now residing at the USOC should be FIRED. every one of them.
don’t let this attitude creep into powerlifting. you’ll never recover if you do. o-lifting and powerlifting have one thing in common: they have officials NOT judges.
they ensure that the lifts are completed within the parameters established by the existing rules. they don’t award style points or judge how technically sound the lift is. it ain’t figure skating folks. the guys who lift the most weight win.
you heard wrong…
glenn pendlay is making a fair point, but the original poster also has a point. i recently watched part of the collegiate nationals broadcasted online through cstv and right now i am currently watching the european championships. lifts that got 3 red lights in the USA are getting 3 white lights internationally. we are overanalyzing technique. sure if its a press out in the jerk then its a not lift, but the FACT that an inch or less of movement in the elbow in the bottom position of a snatch warrants a no lift in the USA is absurd. the judges must figure since we dont have the strongest lifters we might as well be hardasses and make sure they have the best form. it is, without a doubt, a hindrance to olympic weightlifting in the usa.
[/quote]
good post and you are right on the money. intersting point. one i have never considered but you are right on! i saw some awful decisions at arnold this year and nationals is always interesting. my coach has always said, ‘the shittier lifters turn into strictest officials’. maybe that bleeds to USAW as a whole, eh?
so if i lift my butt off the bench when bench pressing to do 300 lbs instead of my 230 with my butt still on the bench, it’s cool? awesome.
i consider bending the back over like taht equal to lifting your butt off the bench. hey, if your only goal is to lift more weight, why not?
[quote]lifter85 wrote:
so if i lift my butt off the bench when bench pressing to do 300 lbs instead of my 230 with my butt still on the bench, it’s cool? awesome.
i consider bending the back over like taht equal to lifting your butt off the bench. hey, if your only goal is to lift more weight, why not?[/quote]
Butt off bench = red lights. That’s why not.
SERIOUSLY PEOPLE, WHAT THE HELL DO YOU SEE THAT IS SO WRONG?!?
Have any of you ever even pulled over 600? over 500? Have you ever even done a max deadlift attempt?
Some of the comments on this thread are ridiculous!
Wah! I don’t my client seeing that! A new lifter shouldn’t see that. That’s not picture perfect form!
A rookie should see lifts like this so they know what is possible through a little dedication and some hard work.
[quote]lifter85 wrote:
so if i lift my butt off the bench when bench pressing to do 300 lbs instead of my 230 with my butt still on the bench, it’s cool? awesome.
i consider bending the back over like taht equal to lifting your butt off the bench. hey, if your only goal is to lift more weight, why not?[/quote]
Are you this stupid in each and every thread? Or have you just forgotten your stupid-pills lately?
#1 This thread is a poster child for why TC is distancing the forums from the articles.
#2 The OP may have had a legitimate question, but the answers are a joke. Bottom line, if you are pulling close to 4X bodyweight, if your form isn’t nearly perfect (for you) it ain’t going to go.
I also lift at 165 and if my hips come up early, I am stuck at about 585. If they stay down, it adds about 40 pounds.
#3 This is supposed to be the “strength sports” forum. Anyone arguing that a 400 pound deadlift with perfect form is more impressive just needs to go to a different forum.
[quote]DS 007 wrote:
this is the same attitude that has reduced united states (olympic) weightlifting - USAW - to little more than a joke internationally. the sport is filled, almost exclusively, with coaches who focus on FORM rather than on the task of developing the physical strength required to move loads on par with top lifters from china, greece, former soviet-bloc nations, iran, etc.
this change in philosophy began in the mid-70’s and USAW has never recovered.
i see this attitude at meet after meet after meet. a lifter will pop a big PR or even a winning lift, hell, i’ve even seen american record lifts inspire comments from coaches like, “sloppy” or “his form was BAD!” or “seemed a bit out front…” insane. in short: every coach now residing at the USOC should be FIRED. every one of them.
don’t let this attitude creep into powerlifting. you’ll never recover if you do. o-lifting and powerlifting have one thing in common: they have officials NOT judges.
they ensure that the lifts are completed within the parameters established by the existing rules. they don’t award style points or judge how technically sound the lift is. it ain’t figure skating folks. the guys who lift the most weight win.[/quote]
This is all friendly debate here, but Why is it shane hamman squatted 900 plus pounds but couldn’t do much of anything internationally? The us has had the strongest two olympic lifters in shane and mark henry who never medaled at the world level. There is more to Olympic lifting than getting stronger. Joe Mills use to say It takes ten years to develop an Olympic lifter, 5 to learn technique and 5 to see how much you can lift. This coming from a very succesful former US coach.
Why is it the US had such early success? Look at Mark Cameron, Norb Schemansky, and Paul Anderson. Paul Anderson by the way taught the Russians how to lift!!! Medvedyev was inspired by this bull. There are several other examples but lets digress further. The real issue is recruitement pools. The us had early success because we had more guys involved in Olympic lifting. China has more Olympic lifters right now than the US may have had historically!!! It is much more profitable for guys to go into the NFL than Olympic lift. Olympic lifting is demanding and to convince athletes to do it for little or no money is hard to do. Powerlifting is much easier to pick up because it requires less coaching.
I love westside stuff and have gotten alot out of reading Louie but I think Louie is just being optimistic saying that he could get that much more out of our lifters. Our coaches are bright and they know what they are doing. Louie provided the example of the cuban arranda who squatted 660 for a double and won worlds. Arranda was built for the squat, check out his femur, he is 5 2"! Dennis has seen him in person at the several worlds he has been to and confirmed this! Arranda’s 200 plus kilo clean and jerk at 77 is impressive but you need only look to our 77 and 85k studs right now in Vaughn and Farris. Had Farris done the numbers he did recently at worlds, he would have medaled, I think gold.
Vaughn also has come a long way. His 190k clean and jerk is only a look at things to come. Farris is also very young, one of these guys will medal at worlds or beijing. The first since Barnett.
Check out Charniga’s stuff and you will see how getting stronger is not always the answer for olympic lifters. I have no idea how to program to dead, squat, or bench for powerlifting but I do know that these sports are so vastly different that you just can’t compare. Look at the CNS difference in the lifts. Charniga goes into great detail on the squat numbers, which seem to have the highest correlation, if any of the assistance exercises and has a good reference base as he has researched quite a bit. Guys that have the best back squats dont neccesarily win. So how can getting stronger always be the answer? The Russians had certain numbers that they like to stay within and had some correlation, if the squat was too high, they would do less squatting. Like in anything, you work on your weakest link and try to bring that up.
Again look at recruitment pools. To insult US coaching without doing so is taking a look at a small picture. Besides, tell chad vaughn or Kendrick Farris this and look at their facial expression, but I?d take one or two steps back when you do.
Then it should not be that big of a deal to post a vid of you doing one. I for one am interested in the form difference you noted.
[quote]Kill’Em All wrote:
I do regularly go up to 500lb deadlifts, but I also like to do preeshausted supersets and varying types of training that satisfys me and allows me to blast my body in many different ways.
[/quote]
[quote]mjdelaney wrote:
DS 007 wrote:
this is the same attitude that has reduced united states (olympic) weightlifting - USAW - to little more than a joke internationally. the sport is filled, almost exclusively, with coaches who focus on FORM rather than on the task of developing the physical strength required to move loads on par with top lifters from china, greece, former soviet-bloc nations, iran, etc.
this change in philosophy began in the mid-70’s and USAW has never recovered.
i see this attitude at meet after meet after meet. a lifter will pop a big PR or even a winning lift, hell, i’ve even seen american record lifts inspire comments from coaches like, “sloppy” or “his form was BAD!” or “seemed a bit out front…” insane. in short: every coach now residing at the USOC should be FIRED. every one of them.
don’t let this attitude creep into powerlifting. you’ll never recover if you do. o-lifting and powerlifting have one thing in common: they have officials NOT judges.
they ensure that the lifts are completed within the parameters established by the existing rules. they don’t award style points or judge how technically sound the lift is. it ain’t figure skating folks. the guys who lift the most weight win.
This is all friendly debate here, but Why is it shane hamman squatted 900 plus pounds but couldn’t do much of anything internationally? The us has had the strongest two olympic lifters in shane and mark henry who never medaled at the world level. There is more to Olympic lifting than getting stronger. Joe Mills use to say It takes ten years to develop an Olympic lifter, 5 to learn technique and 5 to see how much you can lift. This coming from a very succesful former US coach.
Why is it the US had such early success? Look at Mark Cameron, Norb Schemansky, and Paul Anderson. Paul Anderson by the way taught the Russians how to lift!!! Medvedyev was inspired by this bull. There are several other examples but lets digress further. The real issue is recruitement pools. The us had early success because we had more guys involved in Olympic lifting. China has more Olympic lifters right now than the US may have had historically!!! It is much more profitable for guys to go into the NFL than Olympic lift. Olympic lifting is demanding and to convince athletes to do it for little or no money is hard to do. Powerlifting is much easier to pick up because it requires less coaching.
I love westside stuff and have gotten alot out of reading Louie but I think Louie is just being optimistic saying that he could get that much more out of our lifters. Our coaches are bright and they know what they are doing. Louie provided the example of the cuban arranda who squatted 660 for a double and won worlds. Arranda was built for the squat, check out his femur, he is 5 2"! Dennis has seen him in person at the several worlds he has been to and confirmed this! Arranda’s 200 plus kilo clean and jerk at 77 is impressive but you need only look to our 77 and 85k studs right now in Vaughn and Farris. Had Farris done the numbers he did recently at worlds, he would have medaled, I think gold.
Vaughn also has come a long way. His 190k clean and jerk is only a look at things to come. Farris is also very young, one of these guys will medal at worlds or beijing. The first since Barnett.
Check out Charniga’s stuff and you will see how getting stronger is not always the answer for olympic lifters. I have no idea how to program to dead, squat, or bench for powerlifting but I do know that these sports are so vastly different that you just can’t compare. Look at the CNS difference in the lifts. Charniga goes into great detail on the squat numbers, which seem to have the highest correlation, if any of the assistance exercises and has a good reference base as he has researched quite a bit. Guys that have the best back squats dont neccesarily win. So how can getting stronger always be the answer? The Russians had certain numbers that they like to stay within and had some correlation, if the squat was too high, they would do less squatting. Like in anything, you work on your weakest link and try to bring that up.
Again look at recruitment pools. To insult US coaching without doing so is taking a look at a small picture. Besides, tell chad vaughn or Kendrick Farris this and look at their facial expression, but I?d take one or two steps back when you do.
[/quote]
Excellent post, Matt; good to see you around these parts.
(Matt is a helluva O-lifter, guys, FYI)
thanks Eric…
that deadlift is unbelievable by the way. looking forward to seeing you hit 700 some day!
Geez, Eric I watched the vid and had the following impressions:
a) very strong, not even at the limit of your strength,
b) form looked actually fluid, a good sign in deadlift,
c) if anything you appeared to be a little mentally distracted, but you knew even that was too little to stop you from getting the lift with ease, right?
What’s RITJared doing for numbers these days?
Great freakin lift. Not too many people can boast a 3x+ BW dead. Absolutely sick.
[quote]Limbic wrote:
What’s RITJared doing for numbers these days?[/quote]
Not to speak for him, but he just barely missed 590 today after a set of 5005 and 5502.
Probably low 6’s fresh.
[quote]Eric Cressey wrote:
mjdelaney wrote:
DS 007 wrote:
this is the same attitude that has reduced united states (olympic) weightlifting - USAW - to little more than a joke internationally. the sport is filled, almost exclusively, with coaches who focus on FORM rather than on the task of developing the physical strength required to move loads on par with top lifters from china, greece, former soviet-bloc nations, iran, etc.
this change in philosophy began in the mid-70’s and USAW has never recovered.
i see this attitude at meet after meet after meet. a lifter will pop a big PR or even a winning lift, hell, i’ve even seen american record lifts inspire comments from coaches like, “sloppy” or “his form was BAD!” or “seemed a bit out front…” insane. in short: every coach now residing at the USOC should be FIRED. every one of them.
don’t let this attitude creep into powerlifting. you’ll never recover if you do. o-lifting and powerlifting have one thing in common: they have officials NOT judges.
they ensure that the lifts are completed within the parameters established by the existing rules. they don’t award style points or judge how technically sound the lift is. it ain’t figure skating folks. the guys who lift the most weight win.
This is all friendly debate here, but Why is it shane hamman squatted 900 plus pounds but couldn’t do much of anything internationally? The us has had the strongest two olympic lifters in shane and mark henry who never medaled at the world level. There is more to Olympic lifting than getting stronger. Joe Mills use to say It takes ten years to develop an Olympic lifter, 5 to learn technique and 5 to see how much you can lift. This coming from a very succesful former US coach.
Why is it the US had such early success? Look at Mark Cameron, Norb Schemansky, and Paul Anderson. Paul Anderson by the way taught the Russians how to lift!!! Medvedyev was inspired by this bull. There are several other examples but lets digress further. The real issue is recruitement pools. The us had early success because we had more guys involved in Olympic lifting. China has more Olympic lifters right now than the US may have had historically!!! It is much more profitable for guys to go into the NFL than Olympic lift. Olympic lifting is demanding and to convince athletes to do it for little or no money is hard to do. Powerlifting is much easier to pick up because it requires less coaching.
I love westside stuff and have gotten alot out of reading Louie but I think Louie is just being optimistic saying that he could get that much more out of our lifters. Our coaches are bright and they know what they are doing. Louie provided the example of the cuban arranda who squatted 660 for a double and won worlds. Arranda was built for the squat, check out his femur, he is 5 2"! Dennis has seen him in person at the several worlds he has been to and confirmed this! Arranda’s 200 plus kilo clean and jerk at 77 is impressive but you need only look to our 77 and 85k studs right now in Vaughn and Farris. Had Farris done the numbers he did recently at worlds, he would have medaled, I think gold.
Vaughn also has come a long way. His 190k clean and jerk is only a look at things to come. Farris is also very young, one of these guys will medal at worlds or beijing. The first since Barnett.
Check out Charniga’s stuff and you will see how getting stronger is not always the answer for olympic lifters. I have no idea how to program to dead, squat, or bench for powerlifting but I do know that these sports are so vastly different that you just can’t compare. Look at the CNS difference in the lifts. Charniga goes into great detail on the squat numbers, which seem to have the highest correlation, if any of the assistance exercises and has a good reference base as he has researched quite a bit. Guys that have the best back squats dont neccesarily win. So how can getting stronger always be the answer? The Russians had certain numbers that they like to stay within and had some correlation, if the squat was too high, they would do less squatting. Like in anything, you work on your weakest link and try to bring that up.
Again look at recruitment pools. To insult US coaching without doing so is taking a look at a small picture. Besides, tell chad vaughn or Kendrick Farris this and look at their facial expression, but I?d take one or two steps back when you do.
Excellent post, Matt; good to see you around these parts.
(Matt is a helluva O-lifter, guys, FYI)[/quote]
i certainly agree with. great post. and there IS more to o-lifting than getting stronger. certainly henry and hamman brought a lot of strength to the sport. kendrick farris is extermely strong. however, i think by-and-large americans do not train with the intensity that international lifters do.
kendrick farris is an interesting example here. that guy is POUNDED by criticism with regards to his hybrid - and admittedly strange looking - power/split jerk style. top coaches comment that he will miss when he gets to 180. he doesn’t. he’ll miss when he gets to 190. he doesn’t. 200! he doesn’t. point being. the guy has found a technique that works for him. it’s not what’s generally taught. but the lifts pass…so what’s the problem.
my stance is not unique and it is a hot topic for debate. good debate, though.
There is a whole contingent of people who believe, in effect, that “you can’t perform a heavy lift with bad form”.
If someone manages to lift a heavy weight, this is taken as de facto evidence that their form is “good” – otherwise, they wouldn’t be pulling or pushing that much weight.
There’s nothing wrong with that argument, except when it turns into pure, unadulterated hypocrisy. I.e. when a “skinny person” uses the exact same form to move a less-impressive weight, and is immediately descended upon by legions of haters.
There are obviously two very different definitions of “form” being used. The problem is that they are often used interchangably, with people switching their definitions whenever they find it convenient.
The conventional definition of form is, “performing the exercise in a way that stresses the intended aspects of the musculature or trains the intended movement patterns without a significant risk of acute injury”.
Heaving 600 pounds off the floor with a rounded back is an OBVIOUS violation of “proper form” (as defined above), but you would be hard pressed to get a single meathead to admit it. That is because of the double standard put into play when “big lifts” are involved.
As I mentioned earlier, the definition of “proper form” changes suddenly and arbitrarily under these circumstances.
No longer is it about safety – “proper form” is now only concerned with putting up big numbers. That is why every pro lifter who does something that, if replicated by an ordinary person with a proportional weight, could seriously injury them, becomes totally justified by the online iron crowd.
The meathead mantra has always been:
“Don’t you dare criticize someone who’s bigger than you”
At the same time, they preach that the biggest among us usually have genetics to thank the most for the size, and should therefore NOT be listened to. More hypocrisy? You betcha.
Fact is, contradictions abound in the iron game because meatheads just aren’t capable of thinking through arguments to their logical conclusion.
Duh.
You really don’t get it do you. A newbie lifting something with bad form is very different than someone lifting a heavy load with what some would term bad form. There are anatomical differences between people where differences in form actually are a helpful thing.
And advanced guys know this. There is a huge difference between shitty form and a difference that is still safe and more productive for that lifter. When you first teach someone, you try to teach them what is the safest and optimal way. However, they might see that a certain style fits their body better.
This is best after you’ve been training and have conditioned your body to lift a heavy load. It’s a lot different in training age from a 500 or 600 pound lift compared to a 225 pound lift. the stronger guy has adapted to heavy loads already, why the weak guy hasn’t.
And this will make a huge difference in regards to injury.
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
There is a whole contingent of people who believe, in effect, that “you can’t perform a heavy lift with bad form”.
If someone manages to lift a heavy weight, this is taken as de facto evidence that their form is “good” – otherwise, they wouldn’t be pulling or pushing that much weight.
There’s nothing wrong with that argument, except when it turns into pure, unadulterated hypocrisy. I.e. when a “skinny person” uses the exact same form to move a less-impressive weight, and is immediately descended upon by legions of haters.
There are obviously two very different definitions of “form” being used. The problem is that they are often used interchangably, with people switching their definitions whenever they find it convenient.
The conventional definition of form is, “performing the exercise in a way that stresses the intended aspects of the musculature or trains the intended movement patterns without a significant risk of acute injury”.
Heaving 600 pounds off the floor with a rounded back is an OBVIOUS violation of “proper form” (as defined above), but you would be hard pressed to get a single meathead to admit it. That is because of the double standard put into play when “big lifts” are involved.
As I mentioned earlier, the definition of “proper form” changes suddenly and arbitrarily under these circumstances.
No longer is it about safety – “proper form” is now only concerned with putting up big numbers. That is why every pro lifter who does something that, if replicated by an ordinary person with a proportional weight, could seriously injury them, becomes totally justified by the online iron crowd.
The meathead mantra has always been:
“Don’t you dare criticize someone who’s bigger than you”
At the same time, they preach that the biggest among us usually have genetics to thank the most for the size, and should therefore NOT be listened to. More hypocrisy? You betcha.
Fact is, contradictions abound in the iron game because meatheads just aren’t capable of thinking through arguments to their logical conclusion.
Duh.[/quote]