Contreras on Assisted Lifters

Training
141

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]1000rippedbuff wrote:
That’s exactly it and I’ve seen this over and over myself over the years. A sure a guy who uses may still need to work hard, but I think he’s got a lot more room for error than someone who is natural. If Lyle’s study is true, then a guy who is on may not need to do anything correctly and look amazing. If he goes and tells a new kid who’s natural how to train he’ll likely get nothing out of it.
[/quote]

“may need to work hard”? “Guy who is on may not need to do anything correctly and look amazing”??

Buddy, you really have no clue.[/quote]

Dear jeezus please go actually look at the study. And not the abstract and not what someone else says is in it. Learn to read for yourself and form your own opinions…hopefully they will be better then juice and sitting on the couch is better than being a natty and training hard.

There are so many things wrong witht that I have no idea where to begin [/quote]

At the same time, you and Greg should actually read what that guy said before said statement (“a guy who uses may still need to work hard, but I think he’s got a lot more room for error than someone who is natural.”) which is right on the money.

Don’t be pedantic.[/quote]
It’s not really “right on the money” though.

Someone using definitely needs to work hard, just like someone who isn’t using. The “more room for error” part is legit but that depends on the person, what drugs they’re taking and how good (not bunk or “watered down”) the drugs are.

This whole gym endevour is highly individual. If you have enough gym friends I’m sure you know guys who are natty who don’t do all the correct things and still look amazing. Then you probably also know guys who take “lots” (relative term I know) of PED’s and still don’t look as good as a lot of naturals.

It all depends… But I would say that the “more room for error” part is mostly correct but the “more” part is probably vastly overestimated.
[/quote]

I disagree.

(1) Following typical BBing routines is not “hard” work in MY book. The myth that successful BBers (enhanced or natural) are actually training particularly hard should really die. Clearly, they work “hard” compared to the fat average joes but not to somebody with, well, balls. In fact, I would so far that most enhanced BBers (nowadays?) are pussies in the gym. Just look at all those vids of NPC and IFBB BBers training - nothing inspiring.

(2) Where are all these people who train smart, hard, eat correctly, and live a conducive lifestyle that cannot make proper gains, especially those using AAS properly? I think this is a myth. Not saying genetics don’t play a role but it is WAY overstated. See my earlier post in this thread.

142

In my experience, while steroids are not some magic pill that puts muscle on without you working out, if an individual trains while on them, they will drastically improve at a rate faster than almost any guy would naturally. The room for error thing is huge because they can legitimately get away with some of the stupidest shit that wouldn’t put muscle on the newest of newbs and still make ok gains.

The only guys I have seen that I know for sure where running a cycle and didn’t make gains where a couple guys at my old gym who never had a workout that was a strenuous as the Zumba classes next door, unless it involved a preacher curl bench. And he had halfway decent biceps because of it. It doesn’t do the work for you, but it makes the work you do more effective, and almost negates the total lack of good muscle building habits compared to the average, and slightly above average natty.

143

I guess we have come to an impasse.

144

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
People downplaying the dramatic effects of PROPERLY using AAS are as retarded as those who believe they are LITERALLY magic. I personally find the former camp worse since they are usually people who know better and are lying, while the latter are typically simply ignorant.

Perfect example is the whole Bostin Loyd abortion on the interwebz. Sure taking in 12g of AAS/week is not what the average pro is doing to get where they are, but at the same time it surely isn’t predominately hard work and only just a tiny bit of AAS. Blast & cruising with 3g+/week + a buttload of HGH and Insulin for 5-10+ years will turn ANYONE (who is serious!) into a MONSTER. Yes, the chances that they will be the next Ed Coan or placing well at the Mr Olympics are very slim (genetics card), but monsters they will be nonetheless.
[/quote]

Agreed. There are a couple of posters here who claim natty status but defend juicing tooth and nail at every available opportunity. Also a couple of guys who claim they’re on trt (at above trt doses) but tell everyone they’re natural and downplay the drugs when called out. Personally give two shits if someone’s juicing, just don’t give out advice as if the same rules apply to natty’s. It’s irresponsible at best.
[/quote]

What is wrong with a natty defending juicing?

What is wrong with someone juicing giving advice to natties if he has built most of his foundation naturally?
[/quote]

Absolutely nothing. But pretending to be natural and claiming it was your hard work when in reality it was your good drugs is lame. And, I’m talking about people who’ve made minimal natural progress who get “on” then start throwing around advice as if they were natural. There’s quite a bit of that.
[/quote]

So you want people to admit to illegal things? You expect that of people?
[/quote]

No, I want them to shut the fuck up.

145

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So you want people to admit to illegal things? You expect that of people?
[/quote]

No, I want them to shut the fuck up.[/quote]
It’s kind of a tough situation when PED’s are illegal and you have an employer and sponsors on the line. I do not agree with the outright bashing of PED’s by users or “if I was on steroids and this was how I looked I would be pissed” stance when the guy looks awesome… That’s not cool.

A simple “no, I don’t take steroids” and moving on to the next question would suffice. It’s sort of a “I have to at this” type of a deal IMO.

They can’t just ignore it completely because athletes/fitness guys and gals are asked in interviews or online in public ways that make ignoring it unrealistic.

146


Like this. this is lame.

147

[quote]gregron wrote:
Like this. this is lame.[/quote]

Heh, that’s awesome. Googled her and I think I saw some test oozing out of her pores…should go ask ShadowPro about her…just kidding, ShadowPro answered one question by saying something along the lines of the females abuse the drugs more than the males.

@InfiniteShore: you don’t think some of these bodybuilder pros are “lying” about what workouts you have to do to get those big muscles? People don’t want to work hard either, so maybe they get more “hits” with the videos of the 20 lb concentration curls to get 'da big gunz than the massive deadlifts they do for their back musculature. Meadows, Starnes, T Nation’s very own Amit Sapir -they have some pretty hard workout vids that I’ve seen.

148

[quote]gregron wrote:
They can’t just ignore it completely because athletes/fitness guys and gals are asked in interviews or online in public ways that make ignoring it unrealistic.[/quote]
“What do you think idiot?” is what I think their response should be. If the general public weren’t so obscenely ignorant about the whole thing this wouldn’t be a problem. You’d just know and you’d know not to ask.

149

When someone asks me if I use steroids, I ask them what their grandmother’s vagina looks like. Usually stuns them into silence, and then I say “What? Was that too personal a question?” Then I smirk and walk away.

150

[quote]gregron wrote:
Like this. this is lame.[/quote]

That Dana Lynn…great physique but that “I’m a natty” act gets old.

151

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
So you want people to admit to illegal things? You expect that of people?
[/quote]

No, I want them to shut the fuck up.[/quote]
It’s kind of a tough situation when PED’s are illegal and you have an employer and sponsors on the line. I do not agree with the outright bashing of PED’s by users or “if I was on steroids and this was how I looked I would be pissed” stance when the guy looks awesome… That’s not cool.

A simple “no, I don’t take steroids” and moving on to the next question would suffice. It’s sort of a “I have to at this” type of a deal IMO.

They can’t just ignore it completely because athletes/fitness guys and gals are asked in interviews or online in public ways that make ignoring it unrealistic.[/quote]

Agree with you completely, but I meant “shut the fuck up” in the context of giving suspect training and diet advice to young, impressionable kids who believer their hard work got them there when it was mostly their response to the drugs. It’s equally as lame when they deny how much of their development is due to the drugs. Let’s be honest, if they weren’t complete game changers they wouldn’t be near as prevalent as they are.

152

[quote]Yogi wrote:
When someone asks me if I use steroids, I ask them what their grandmother’s vagina looks like. Usually stuns them into silence, and then I say “What? Was that too personal a question?” Then I smirk and walk away.[/quote]
looooooooool

153

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]1000rippedbuff wrote:
That’s exactly it and I’ve seen this over and over myself over the years. A sure a guy who uses may still need to work hard, but I think he’s got a lot more room for error than someone who is natural. If Lyle’s study is true, then a guy who is on may not need to do anything correctly and look amazing. If he goes and tells a new kid who’s natural how to train he’ll likely get nothing out of it.
[/quote]

“may need to work hard”? “Guy who is on may not need to do anything correctly and look amazing”??

Buddy, you really have no clue.[/quote]

Dear jeezus please go actually look at the study. And not the abstract and not what someone else says is in it. Learn to read for yourself and form your own opinions…hopefully they will be better then juice and sitting on the couch is better than being a natty and training hard.

There are so many things wrong witht that I have no idea where to begin [/quote]

At the same time, you and Greg should actually read what that guy said before said statement (“a guy who uses may still need to work hard, but I think he’s got a lot more room for error than someone who is natural.”) which is right on the money.

Don’t be pedantic.[/quote]

Dunno how many users youve met but Ive met enough to know that the statment using makes gains better if you sit on a couch vs a training natty just plain stupid. Since 90% of the users i meet are DYEL. I would never guess they lift let alone juice. Please take your natty rage else where

154

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
People downplaying the dramatic effects of PROPERLY using AAS are as retarded as those who believe they are LITERALLY magic. I personally find the former camp worse since they are usually people who know better and are lying, while the latter are typically simply ignorant.

Perfect example is the whole Bostin Loyd abortion on the interwebz. Sure taking in 12g of AAS/week is not what the average pro is doing to get where they are, but at the same time it surely isn’t predominately hard work and only just a tiny bit of AAS. Blast & cruising with 3g+/week + a buttload of HGH and Insulin for 5-10+ years will turn ANYONE (who is serious!) into a MONSTER. Yes, the chances that they will be the next Ed Coan or placing well at the Mr Olympics are very slim (genetics card), but monsters they will be nonetheless.
[/quote]

Agreed. There are a couple of posters here who claim natty status but defend juicing tooth and nail at every available opportunity. Also a couple of guys who claim they’re on trt (at above trt doses) but tell everyone they’re natural and downplay the drugs when called out. Personally give two shits if someone’s juicing, just don’t give out advice as if the same rules apply to natty’s. It’s irresponsible at best.
[/quote]

What is wrong with a natty defending juicing?

What is wrong with someone juicing giving advice to natties if he has built most of his foundation naturally?
[/quote]

Absolutely nothing. But pretending to be natural and claiming it was your hard work when in reality it was your good drugs is lame. And, I’m talking about people who’ve made minimal natural progress who get “on” then start throwing around advice as if they were natural. There’s quite a bit of that.
[/quote]

So you want people to admit to illegal things? You expect that of people?
[/quote]

No, I want them to shut the fuck up.[/quote]
They make a living off this. And if people are dumb enough to take advice from anyone they meet well natural selection. If they cant figure out it doesnt work again natural seleciton

155

[quote]Yogi wrote:
When someone asks me if I use steroids, I ask them what their grandmother’s vagina looks like. Usually stuns them into silence, and then I say “What? Was that too personal a question?” Then I smirk and walk away.[/quote]

So much win

156

I know of a guy in my gym who’s really open about starting AAS in the past year, and from his posts on the internet, a lot of it. The first time I saw him training (about 9 months ago), he came in in jeans and a polo shirt, took off his shirt, and started benching about 70kg (and that looked pretty damn hard). He wasn’t really known for being very smart about his training/diet, which probably doesn’t come as much of a surprise.

Fast forward to the past few weeks. I saw him again for the first time in a long time and didn’t recognize him at first. Massive change in his overall size and body comp. Was surprised to see him squat 175kg for a triple. His form has gotten better, but his training methodology seems as stupid as ever. He just comes in and does a max out every day, until he fails. But now he wears nothing but Under Armour shirts. Oh well, at least he improved on the whole polo/shirtless thing.

That said, my gym’s friendly neighbourhood steroid dealer has also voiced his opinion on several occasions that I would probably be quite surprised to find out who was buying gear from him and how much they use because while there are a LOT of guys juicing in my gym, there exists a significant segment that you would never guess had done it by looking at them. There does seem to be a lot of individual variation in response to AAS.

157

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]1000rippedbuff wrote:
That’s exactly it and I’ve seen this over and over myself over the years. A sure a guy who uses may still need to work hard, but I think he’s got a lot more room for error than someone who is natural. If Lyle’s study is true, then a guy who is on may not need to do anything correctly and look amazing. If he goes and tells a new kid who’s natural how to train he’ll likely get nothing out of it.
[/quote]

“may need to work hard”? “Guy who is on may not need to do anything correctly and look amazing”??

Buddy, you really have no clue.[/quote]

Dear jeezus please go actually look at the study. And not the abstract and not what someone else says is in it. Learn to read for yourself and form your own opinions…hopefully they will be better then juice and sitting on the couch is better than being a natty and training hard.

There are so many things wrong witht that I have no idea where to begin [/quote]

At the same time, you and Greg should actually read what that guy said before said statement (“a guy who uses may still need to work hard, but I think he’s got a lot more room for error than someone who is natural.”) which is right on the money.

Don’t be pedantic.[/quote]

Dunno how many users youve met but Ive met enough to know that the statment using makes gains better if you sit on a couch vs a training natty just plain stupid. Since 90% of the users i meet are DYEL. I would never guess they lift let alone juice. Please take your natty rage else where
[/quote]

Don’t be silly - you missed my point. Seems like a pattern with you. I hope it has to do with you reading and posting on your phone.

158

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

Dunno how many users youve met but Ive met enough to know that the statment using makes gains better if you sit on a couch vs a training natty just plain stupid. Since 90% of the users i meet are DYEL. I would never guess they lift let alone juice. Please take your natty rage else where
[/quote]

How much? What kind? What quality? Fake?

Oh, right, you “know a guy” >> one of the few actual scientific studies done on larger than therapeutic doses of AAS.

159

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

Dunno how many users youve met but Ive met enough to know that the statment using makes gains better if you sit on a couch vs a training natty just plain stupid. Since 90% of the users i meet are DYEL. I would never guess they lift let alone juice. Please take your natty rage else where
[/quote]

How much? What kind? What quality? Fake?

Oh, right, you “know a guy” >> one of the few actual scientific studies done on larger than therapeutic doses of AAS.[/quote]
Are you really saying a guy can start taking AAS, sit on the couch, not workout at all and make better progress than guys who are in the gym training as naturals?

160

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

Dunno how many users youve met but Ive met enough to know that the statment using makes gains better if you sit on a couch vs a training natty just plain stupid. Since 90% of the users i meet are DYEL. I would never guess they lift let alone juice. Please take your natty rage else where
[/quote]

How much? What kind? What quality? Fake?

Oh, right, you “know a guy” >> one of the few actual scientific studies done on larger than therapeutic doses of AAS.[/quote]
Are you really saying a guy can start taking AAS, sit on the couch, not workout at all and make better progress than guys who are in the gym training as naturals?[/quote]
Before we all get too carried away I think the issue is that no one ever said a guy on gear who does nothing could get bigger or stronger than a natural guy who trains. No one on either side of the “argument” believes that or ever said so. So I think there is some confusion using that as a counterpoint.

I’m not the best reader, but all I ever saw here was a few people saying that a guy on gear could train less seriously and less intelligently than a natural guy and often make more progress anyway. And I’m fairly certain that happens all the time. Self evident really. Just the way it is.