Confused on Increasing Vertical Jump

Training Powerlifting
21

[quote]forensic91 wrote:
Well thanks guys for all the help so far, I didn’t mean for this to get into a huge argument. Some additional info

Max squat: 190lbs
Current Vertical Leap: 23"
My goal would be to get about a 30" vertical leap by mid september. Would that be possible?
Also, I will check into that book.
As for the 3 steps, I have step 3 down, I have below 10% BF so I will focus on the other 2 steps. What kind of plyometrics are beneficial? and what other lifts should I be doing besides squats?[/quote]

Well, your squat is kind of low, my suggestion would be to focus on that until you have at least 315 on the bar, and forget most polymetric work. It seems like max strength is holding you back.

I quite like the ws4sb 3 template, as it lets you get one day of polymetric training in, while letting you get bigger and stronger. Other good staples for jumping would be bulgarian split squats, deadlifts, romanian deadlifts.

Would anyone who knows what they are talking about comment on the carryover of sumo stance deadlifts to running/jumping? I’m not sure how much there would be. I’d assume more carryover towards broad jumps and sprinting than vertical jumps with that lift.

As for if thats obtainable by you, no one can say. Just give it your all and see where you come up.

22

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
flightposite wrote:
just throwing somthing out there say some one 6’2" 170lbs with a 300lb squat were to increase his squat to 400lbs and only gained 5lbs of weight that would make him 175lbs now would his vertical have to increase?

He would be able to powersnatch his own bodyweight with no dip to catch it…

so 39-40+ inches at least, but generally speaking, taller guys need less strength for a certain vert, if they have normal or longer femur/leg ratios.

As long as he is a well practised jumper with good reactivity and jumping efficiency

it’s based on a little formula I’ve thought up just from observation of a few 5’9" guys with vertical jumps over 40 inches :slight_smile: [/quote]

I don’t mean to go horribly offtopic, but claiming 400 lbs squat at 175 lbs bodyweight means 39-40+ inches vertical jump at least, is just not true in 99% of the cases.

How much of the defensive backs at this year’s combine had 39-40+ verticals? Most of them are in the 170-190 lbs department, and I think pretty much all of them can squat 400.
Rodgers-Cromartie jumped 38.5 and he was this year’s freak from the DB guys :slight_smile:

23

[quote]Defekt wrote:
forensic91 wrote:
Well thanks guys for all the help so far, I didn’t mean for this to get into a huge argument. Some additional info

Max squat: 190lbs
Current Vertical Leap: 23"
My goal would be to get about a 30" vertical leap by mid september. Would that be possible?
Also, I will check into that book.
As for the 3 steps, I have step 3 down, I have below 10% BF so I will focus on the other 2 steps. What kind of plyometrics are beneficial? and what other lifts should I be doing besides squats?

Well, your squat is kind of low, my suggestion would be to focus on that until you have at least 315 on the bar, and forget most polymetric work. It seems like max strength is holding you back.

I quite like the ws4sb 3 template, as it lets you get one day of polymetric training in, while letting you get bigger and stronger. Other good staples for jumping would be bulgarian split squats, deadlifts, romanian deadlifts.

Would anyone who knows what they are talking about comment on the carryover of sumo stance deadlifts to running/jumping? I’m not sure how much there would be. I’d assume more carryover towards broad jumps and sprinting than vertical jumps with that lift.

As for if thats obtainable by you, no one can say. Just give it your all and see where you come up. [/quote]

Good advice, I have a couple comments.

I agree about the squat for the most part, here is a simple checklist that you can do.

1.) Test your vertical. You’ve already done this, it’s 23". I’ll assume that’s accurate.
2.) Are you strong for your vertical? Meaning, can other people who, with comparable body structure, jump as high as you squat more or less than you? If your squat is good but your vertical leap is bad, you need to work on building your explosive strength. If your vertical is good but your squat is poor, you need to spend more time building your strength levels.
3.) If your explosive strength is good (as measured by your vertical), but you take a long time to jump or you don’t seem to be able to execute your full jumping ability during competition, this can indicate a reactive strength deficit. This is when plyometrics are appropriate.

Right now I would say that you are fairly weak for your vertical leap. Maximal strength is also the foundation for building explosive power so it is important to build that.

I echo the statements about the WS4SB program, it works well for this. My advice to you would be to design an 8-week cycle that focuses on building up your strength in the squat while having a secondary focus on explosive power. A simple way to do this would be to have one day where you squat heavy weights and another where you do explosive power exercises such as weighted squat jumps. On both days do 2 basic assistance exercises such as RDLs, back extensions, lunges, along with ab work. On the third do some upper body work that you feel is important.

24

[quote]Defekt wrote:
Would anyone who knows what they are talking about comment on the carryover of sumo stance deadlifts to running/jumping? I’m not sure how much there would be. I’d assume more carryover towards broad jumps and sprinting than vertical jumps with that lift.
[/quote]

I’m not sure that I’m somebody who really knows what he’s talking about but I think there are pros and cons to sumo stance deadlifting. As far as a “true” sumo stance where the feet are out by the collars, I would not do that nor would I program that in a plan for any of my athletes. I think it is too hard on the hips and groin. However, I do see a lot of benefit in a “semi-sumo” style where you have feet just outside shoulder width (like a squat stance) but you have the hands inside the feet instead of outside. This can be worthwhile for people who tend to pull conventionally using the back a lot instead of driving with the hips. I think this is an issue you run into when there are anterior tilt issues which makes everything turn into a stiff-legged deadlift. When you have the hands inside the feet you sit down more and the torso is more vertical and it is something I have gone to when my my conventional pulls start to be “all back” and I lose the glute drive.

That is also an easier pull technically, you just lean back and pull; no worries about getting the bar over the knees and easier to keep the lower back in a better position.

25

[quote]mldj wrote:
CoolColJ wrote:
flightposite wrote:
just throwing somthing out there say some one 6’2" 170lbs with a 300lb squat were to increase his squat to 400lbs and only gained 5lbs of weight that would make him 175lbs now would his vertical have to increase?

He would be able to powersnatch his own bodyweight with no dip to catch it…

so 39-40+ inches at least, but generally speaking, taller guys need less strength for a certain vert, if they have normal or longer femur/leg ratios.

As long as he is a well practised jumper with good reactivity and jumping efficiency

it’s based on a little formula I’ve thought up just from observation of a few 5’9" guys with vertical jumps over 40 inches :slight_smile:

I don’t mean to go horribly offtopic, but claiming 400 lbs squat at 175 lbs bodyweight means 39-40+ inches vertical jump at least, is just not true in 99% of the cases.

How much of the defensive backs at this year’s combine had 39-40+ verticals? Most of them are in the 170-190 lbs department, and I think pretty much all of them can squat 400.
Rodgers-Cromartie jumped 38.5 and he was this year’s freak from the DB guys :slight_smile:

[/quote]

This guys is 6’2" for starters, that helps.

If he is explosive, has a fast CNS and can jump properly (fires the muscles in the right order) and jumps a lot, along with good mobility and tissue quality, then a 400lb fully oly squat (high bar, no belt, ass to the floor, controlled descent) is enough strength to launch a 175lb guy who is at least 5’9" with normal length legs at least 39 inches into the air IMO :slight_smile:

If you look at Kelly Baggett’s 400lb oly squat at 160lb with a 42 inch VJ, Squat Dr’s 600+lb oly squat at 210lbs with 47-49 inch vertical, and another 5’9" 175lb dude with a 42 inch vertical with 440lb olysquat (10.5 FAT 100m sprint time too) you will see a certain trend that backs up my “formula”

If you can’t jump that with those strength ratios then you would assume there are weaknesses, and deficits to work on…

26

you have to be jump specialist to achieve that though

I suppose most football players do a lot of conditioning and crap that reduces true expression of jump power, along with high volume of work and training frequency.
Plus they don’t jump enough compared to BBall and Volleyball players

27

[quote]lordstorm88 wrote:
as far as ive heard vertical jump is most about calves, hamstrings and glutes/back rather than quads. of course they help too, but not that much.

least thats what ive heard.[/quote]

A two foot jump involves the quads to a very high degree. Single leg jumps less so, but the quads are still used.

28

[quote]duck_dodger23 wrote:
If by “a bunch of scientific equipment” you mean a tape measurer and a stop watch then yes that’s correct.

Start learning how to squat, but in very light loads i.e. 50-80% of your body weight. Squat to parallel or just above.

In the meantime, performing jumps will strengthen the muscles of your legs while improving all those other great qualities (speed strength, RFD, etc. etc depending on what time of jump)

Do high volumes of box jumps, squat jumps, tuck jumps, star jumps, etc. and also do lots of med ball work (OH toss, chest pass, squat throw, etc. be creative). You want to exhaust these options before you start worrying too much about the weights

above all be patient and be persistent. the gains will come

[/quote]

It would probably be best if people looking to improve their hops ignored this post.

29

[quote]OBoile wrote:
duck_dodger23 wrote:
If by “a bunch of scientific equipment” you mean a tape measurer and a stop watch then yes that’s correct.

Start learning how to squat, but in very light loads i.e. 50-80% of your body weight. Squat to parallel or just above.

In the meantime, performing jumps will strengthen the muscles of your legs while improving all those other great qualities (speed strength, RFD, etc. etc depending on what time of jump)

Do high volumes of box jumps, squat jumps, tuck jumps, star jumps, etc. and also do lots of med ball work (OH toss, chest pass, squat throw, etc. be creative). You want to exhaust these options before you start worrying too much about the weights

above all be patient and be persistent. the gains will come

It would probably be best if people looking to improve their hops ignored this post.[/quote]

lol yeah i guess ignoring the guy with a 30"+ vertical, 50+" box jump, etc. etc. at 275 pounds is probably a good idea!!!

30

I would recommend listening to jtrinsey and CoolcolJ, as I would wager they know more about this subject than anyone else here.

31

[quote]OBoile wrote:
duck_dodger23 wrote:
If by “a bunch of scientific equipment” you mean a tape measurer and a stop watch then yes that’s correct.

Start learning how to squat, but in very light loads i.e. 50-80% of your body weight. Squat to parallel or just above.

In the meantime, performing jumps will strengthen the muscles of your legs while improving all those other great qualities (speed strength, RFD, etc. etc depending on what time of jump)

Do high volumes of box jumps, squat jumps, tuck jumps, star jumps, etc. and also do lots of med ball work (OH toss, chest pass, squat throw, etc. be creative). You want to exhaust these options before you start worrying too much about the weights

above all be patient and be persistent. the gains will come

It would probably be best if people looking to improve their hops ignored this post.[/quote]

I actually think that is a pretty good post. Too many people want to jump (literally, har har) into the shock method before they are even proficient jumpers. Additionally, performing a high (but not excessively high) volume of low to moderate-intensity jumps is a good way to build tolerance for jumping and also to stabilize speed-strength.

As Zatsiorsky says, “strength that is built quickly is lost quickly” and I believe this to be true for speed-strength as well.

Remember that adding 1.5" inches to your vert and being able to stabilize that performance is much better than peaking out and setting a 3" PR and not being able to reproduce that again for 8 months.

32

[quote]duck_dodger23 wrote:
OBoile wrote:
duck_dodger23 wrote:
If by “a bunch of scientific equipment” you mean a tape measurer and a stop watch then yes that’s correct.

Start learning how to squat, but in very light loads i.e. 50-80% of your body weight. Squat to parallel or just above.

In the meantime, performing jumps will strengthen the muscles of your legs while improving all those other great qualities (speed strength, RFD, etc. etc depending on what time of jump)

Do high volumes of box jumps, squat jumps, tuck jumps, star jumps, etc. and also do lots of med ball work (OH toss, chest pass, squat throw, etc. be creative). You want to exhaust these options before you start worrying too much about the weights

above all be patient and be persistent. the gains will come

It would probably be best if people looking to improve their hops ignored this post.

lol yeah i guess ignoring the guy with a 30"+ vertical, 50+" box jump, etc. etc. at 275 pounds is probably a good idea!!!

[/quote]

It is when he gives bad advice.

33

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
OBoile wrote:
duck_dodger23 wrote:
If by “a bunch of scientific equipment” you mean a tape measurer and a stop watch then yes that’s correct.

Start learning how to squat, but in very light loads i.e. 50-80% of your body weight. Squat to parallel or just above.

In the meantime, performing jumps will strengthen the muscles of your legs while improving all those other great qualities (speed strength, RFD, etc. etc depending on what time of jump)

Do high volumes of box jumps, squat jumps, tuck jumps, star jumps, etc. and also do lots of med ball work (OH toss, chest pass, squat throw, etc. be creative). You want to exhaust these options before you start worrying too much about the weights

above all be patient and be persistent. the gains will come

It would probably be best if people looking to improve their hops ignored this post.

I actually think that is a pretty good post. Too many people want to jump (literally, har har) into the shock method before they are even proficient jumpers. Additionally, performing a high (but not excessively high) volume of low to moderate-intensity jumps is a good way to build tolerance for jumping and also to stabilize speed-strength. As Zatsiorsky says, “strength that is built quickly is lost quickly” and I believe this to be true for speed-strength as well.

Remember that adding 1.5" inches to your vert and being able to stabilize that performance is much better than peaking out and setting a 3" PR and not being able to reproduce that again for 8 months.

[/quote]

My beef is mainly with the weight training suggestions. I tend to believe “Maximal strength is also the foundation for building explosive power so it is important to build that.” The guy who said that is pretty smart IMO. :slight_smile:

To me that would mean not using 50-80% of your bodyweight on squats (unless the person really is that weak) and including weight training as a key component (i.e. “worrying about weights”) right from day 1.

34

strength certainly is vital for any sport athlete, but not in terms of what your 1rm is. the op is a 160 pound untrained teenager playing a sport that requires extreme skill, energy system “development” as well as general physical qualities such as leaping and sprinting.

why would you take this young man and immediately throw him into a powerlifting weight training program? the chance of injury would be very great IMO

instead, a superior course of action would be to strengthen his skeletal muscle by performing different jumps, bounds, short sprints, push ups, pull ups, med ball work, etc. etc. then, when these exercises no longer provide a worthy stimulus for the athlete. move onto focusing on the weights as now he is hopefully technically proficient in the squat and bench as he has been practicing form with light loads.

in basketball (particularly in high school with the nick-nack referees), over-coming external loads has little effect on the game. the athlete must be able to control and manipulate his own body weight to be explosive.

also keep in mind that this young man also needs to begin his basketball SKILLS, cardiac system, energy systems, etc.

to be honest all of this is nil. because i know at the high school level when there is a player that is able to jump high he LOVES to jump. so, a good pump fake and proper tech on the box out can take him out of the game.

oh yeah, if you wanna set baselines to see your power and reactivity are improving or regressing based on your training, performing a triple or quadruple standing long jump and have someone time it.

35

Good post DD.

I have spoken with OBoile and I know his frame of reference- it is that too many kids focus on “Air Alert”-style plyo programs with insane volumes of low-moderate plyos and never get strong.

One thing I have learned from working with a lot of younger kids is just how many of them have glaring weaknesses in the most basic stuff- I’m talking about not being able to do a lunge properly. So if fixing those really basic things can yield improvements, then why “waste” the more advanced methods. That is like jumping into bands and chains on the second squat session.

Two big problems I see with the way kids trained/are trained:

  1. Jump too quickly into advanced methods
  2. Have no idea of how to progress from basic to advance.

The two are related of course.

36

i hear you there my friend. it is frustrating bc there are kids in high school who are “good athletes” yet cannot perform certain exercises that elementary school age kids should be able to do. guess that (and nation wide obesity) is what happens when you cut PE!

I agree with you completely, let’s be honest 99% of the people out there have no clue how to train sport athletes. even the guys that do a good job of getting kids big, strong, explosive, seems like many of them neglect properly preparing kids for the specific rigors of their games and seasons. in a way, some of it is made worse by all the information out there.

funny story about air alert, i actually did the program when i was 10 years old LOL. saved up the cash washing cars and mailed it off. fun times

37

Well I’m doing a program I kinda made up from alot of info from various sources that’s out there for vertical jump and power/strength gains, and I have completed 8 weeks of an expected 15 weeks. I think the best thing to do is before starting, assess yourself and what you are working with, then design a program around that.

I did that and I’ll post my stats before I started this 15 week program and currently (8 weeks along).I would say that I was really weak in the strength department and slightly above average in reactive ability

Stats about 2 weeks before I started the program
Height - 6’0"
Weight - 175lbs
Standing vertical - 24-26"
Running Vertical - 28-30"
Squat Max - 275lbs x1

As of Yesterday
Height - 6’-0"
Weight - 175 lbs
Standing vertical 30-32"
Running Vertical - 35-36"
Squat Max - 300lbs x2

Hope that helps, with that being said, I think the most important thing is to balance intensity with volume and recovery.In my book you should always feel pretty fresh before any training session if your going for maximum gains in Vertical Jump/Speed. But when I’m finished I’ll post a thread with my full results over the 15 weeks.

38

[quote]duck_dodger23 wrote:
strength certainly is vital for any sport athlete, but not in terms of what your 1rm is. the op is a 160 pound untrained teenager playing a sport that requires extreme skill, energy system “development” as well as general physical qualities such as leaping and sprinting.

why would you take this young man and immediately throw him into a powerlifting weight training program? the chance of injury would be very great IMO
[/quote]

Who said anything about a powerlifting routine? I would suggest he follow WS4SB or Kelly Bagget’s routines. Neither one of these will call for lots of squats at 50% body weight. For a 160# kid who can squat 190# I don’t see how squats of less than 120 or so will provide much benefit. The novice lifting routing in the VJDB calls for 3 sets of 8-10 squats. That would be done with at least 120.

As for Joe Defranco, this is what he does with a tall skinny kid who plays basketball:

I also don’t see why you would recommend to squat above parallel. That may make sense for an advanced athlete looking to do something more sport specific, be for someone new to strength training, this simply doesn’t make sense. I’d say squat as deep as possible while still being able to maintain a good arch in your back.

[quote]duck_dodger23 wrote:
instead, a superior course of action would be to strengthen his skeletal muscle by performing different jumps, bounds, short sprints, push ups, pull ups, med ball work, etc. etc. then, when these exercises no longer provide a worthy stimulus for the athlete. move onto focusing on the weights as now he is hopefully technically proficient in the squat and bench as he has been practicing form with light loads.
[/quote]

Jumps, bounds and sprints are all fine and should be done. Push ups and pull ups are only appropriate if the load is in the correct range to acheive the desired training effect.

[quote]duck_dodger23 wrote:
in basketball (particularly in high school with the nick-nack referees), over-coming external loads has little effect on the game. the athlete must be able to control and manipulate his own body weight to be explosive.
[/quote]

Quite simply, I don’t subscribe to the belief that one needs to do extensive bodyweight work in order to “control and manipulate” their own body.
As many people have stated, the poster is lacking in strength. Use the tool that will correct this the fastest. Bodyweight work can be included in the warmup if desired. You’ll never duplicate the exact basketball motions in the weightroom anyway.

[quote]duck_dodger23 wrote:
also keep in mind that this young man also needs to begin his basketball SKILLS, cardiac system, energy systems, etc.

to be honest all of this is nil. because i know at the high school level when there is a player that is able to jump high he LOVES to jump. so, a good pump fake and proper tech on the box out can take him out of the game.
[/quote]
The development of basketball skills is outside the context of this discussion. I will make the assumption that the OP is still playing basketball somewhat regularly, which should take care of any energy system work, at least until he gets closer to the start of his season.

[quote]duck_dodger23 wrote:
oh yeah, if you wanna set baselines to see your power and reactivity are improving or regressing based on your training, performing a triple or quadruple standing long jump and have someone time it. [/quote]

Would it not simply be easier to measure the distance of the jumps?

  1. That is a bit easier to measure with any level of precision
    and
  2. as someone’s power and reactivity increase, you’ll likely see an increase in time spent in the air coupled with a shorter time spent on the ground. How exactly do you know if the subject is improving, and by how much?

To the OP, the most important things IMO for basketball are (in order):

  1. Skill
  2. Conditioning
  3. Basketball IQ
  4. Speed
  5. Strength
  6. Jumping ability
    You should be working on 1 all the time. 2 can be trained starting a couple of months before the season (assuming you maintain a decent base throughout the summer). 3 is really trained while practicing with your team.

So, now is the time to focus on 4-6 which are all somewhat correlated (also focus on 1).

39

Good post my man.

WS4SB is a powerlifting program with added jumps and some sprint work. lots of respect for joe d. but it is NOT a program for team sport athletes imo. lifting “max effort” year round is a terrible idea if you’re an athlete. i’m sorry thats just the way it is.

btw, the video looks like a 185 pound guy working with 135. i also remember joe d. saying he had the kid doing jumps, ghr, back raises, etc. before he implemented box squats. while i disagree with a lot of what joe d.

puts out there (strongman, year round max effort lifting, over emphasis on prowler, sled, etc) looks like the man is right on here. i should also add i’ve never trained there and only know what he does based on the info he puts out…no disrespect to the guy

as far as squat depth, for athletes i believe proper depth is the point where the lumbar spine begins to round. for taller guys with certain leverages this is usually somewhat above parallel. any depth below that, in my opinion, becomes unneeded based on a cost-benefit analysis.

of course jumps and sprints are fine. that’s what his sport is! lol. this whole idea that you can get faster and jump higher just by improving max strength is, from my experiences, completely false

as for the bodyweight work, consider this: if the man is cranking out the reps on bw exercises, his 1rm in squat/bench will improve but not vice versa.

in my opinion, getting a young athlete to master his/her bodyweight to get stronger is easier and less stressful (to the body/organs) than jumping into the weights. gotta walk before you can run!

also, if you know how/when to program certain things it is important for the athlete to be able to absorb and reapply force rapidly that is best accomplished using bodyweight. after all, in sports, this force is usually the athlete’s bodyweight!

this is kind of where the opposite applies as most athletes will be too weak to do this with their bwt and will have to begin with empty/lightly loaded barbells.

also, playing basketball will not optimally prepare him for the games, season! very specific things must be done here to accomplish that. and i dont believe skills are outside of the context as the end goal is to make him a good bball player!

i’m an athlete myself (american football), and i work with two athletes in my free time (a friend and a cousin) because the art/science of sport training is a hobby of mine. depending on the time of the training year i try to program specific exercises to improve their skills based on extensive research into their sports (tennis, volleyball) and conversations with them.

these are very specific and somewhat limited in scope as i only program things i am positive will produce a positive training effect. btw, they were all-conference ncaa and hs all american honorable mention this year. can’t take credit for any of that though to be honest

lol

sorry i was confusing. what i meant was i measure the jump for distance AND time. if distance improves time stays same you know athlete is spending less time on the ground thus more reactive. there a certain formulas for quantifying these changes exactly so search around

btw that is a great list and i agree with the premise though not with the application. i now believe proper “conditioning” should (and can) be performed year round. you just have to be doing the right things at the right times. also, “basketball iq” is something that can be learned by watching film of the pros as well from my experience

like our soviet friends said: sport mastery is a four part equation - PPTT
- physical, psychological, technical, tactical

good stuff

40

[quote]SameOldG wrote:
Well I’m doing a program I kinda made up from alot of info from various sources that’s out there for vertical jump and power/strength gains, and I have completed 8 weeks of an expected 15 weeks.

I think the best thing to do is before starting, assess yourself and what you are working with, then design a program around that. I did that and I’ll post my stats before I started this 15 week program and currently (8 weeks along).I would say that I was really weak in the strength department and slightly above average in reactive ability

Stats about 2 weeks before I started the program
Height - 6’0"
Weight - 175lbs
Standing vertical - 24-26"
Running Vertical - 28-30"
Squat Max - 275lbs x1

As of Yesterday
Height - 6’-0"
Weight - 175 lbs
Standing vertical 30-32"
Running Vertical - 35-36"
Squat Max - 300lbs x2

Hope that helps, with that being said, I think the most important thing is to balance intensity with volume and recovery.In my book you should always feel pretty fresh before any training session if your going for maximum gains in Vertical Jump/Speed. But when I’m finished I’ll post a thread with my full results over the 15 weeks.[/quote]

those are great improvements man. good luck and i luck forward to seeing your post when you’re done. are you training for a sport or just for jumping ability?