I am relatively new to the Olympic lifts, less than a year cleaning and 4 months on the snatch.
Current bests
Clean: 240lbs
C+J : 185
Snatch :175
I see a lot if high level lifters barely finishing their high pull above the belly button, and then dropping with incredible speed underneath the bar. How do I work on that! I can clean pull 315 easily, my high pull is on par with my best clean. The problem seems to be the ability to get under anything that I can’t pull to my sternum.
I’ve been doing (1+1) clean and front squat complex to practice the conversion, also been front squatting 2x a week. What else should I be doing?
You probably won’t like my suggestion, but lower the weight…alot. For me I was going up in a lot of the weights and discovered that I just couldn’t get certain weights no matter how much I tried, how much assistance work I did, etc. Then I lowered the weight to about 95lbs-135lbs at the heaviest to practice technique. Then I found things to move again.
Check out this blog post from Wil Fleming, it has some pretty good advice:
Particularly near the bottom where he suggests not pulling so high and/or forcefully. On another note I love that blog post so much (no gay) because it’s helped me with a better clean. Overall I think his blog is a great resource and the guy actually answers emails I’ve sent him too.
^This will be good advice but not necessarily for what your problem is. traditional lifts to help with getting under heavy cleans are 1)heavy work from the hang/blocks, 2) 3 position cleans (1+1+1 from the floor, the knee, and high hang), and 3) doing more heavy cleans.
I’m not sure that doing clean and front squat complexes are going to increase your speed under the bar.
Bottom line, you hit it on the head. Your new to this. I assume you have “lifted weights before”. The problem is, if you have never olympic lifted then absolutely NOTHING that you have done in the gym before prepares you for diving under the bar and catching it. Nothing. And it scares the hell out of you. Ain’t no spotter to save you, can’t wear no multi-ply suit, and can’t do it half-way and bail.Its scary shit. And it pisses you off cause as a strong guy you figure you can muscle through it.Take the advice of backing off on the weight and making the movement a reflex reaction. Which will take time. Think of yourself as someone who never learned to ride a bike until now. Cause that’s where your at, no matter how “strong” you are. Keep at it like the 4 year old when the training wheels come off and in no time your technique will pick up and your strength will kick in and your lifts will explode.
Weightlifting is a learnt skill. It’ll take many many hours to do it properly. I’d say at least 300-500hrs to get a better grasp of it.
Lifts from the hang will teach you speed under the bar. I recommend doing 10sets of triples with the empty bar at the start of EVERY session. EVERY BEGINNER should be doing this until they can lift properly. The sooner you clock in 500reps of EACH lift the better your technique will be. Once the bar work is done then start adding weight and go to a moderate weight where you can keep your technique sharp and fast. As soon as you get sloppy it’s too heavy for you so far.
The top lifters make it look easy because they have spent 1000’s of hrs honing their skill.
Koing, how does doing cleans from the hang improve speed if you’re still only able to get under a weight you excessively high? My power clean is only about 5 kilos under my best clean and I’m getting under my best clean well above parallel and riding it down.
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
Koing, how does doing cleans from the hang improve speed if you’re still only able to get under a weight you excessively high? My power clean is only about 5 kilos under my best clean and I’m getting under my best clean well above parallel and riding it down. [/quote]
I’m not Koing, but if I may take a stab at it . . .
I believe the idea is that by taking the first part of the lift out of the equation you can better focus on the transition from exploding upwards to pulling yourself under the bar. Also, for some people, removing the momentum gained from the first part of the lift takes enough off that you’re forced to pull yourself under the bar to get under any appreciable weight.
Technique can be a big part of it. I read a blog post by Dan Bell about it, where he described a lifter who had a helluva time getting underneath anything, but when she started getting the bar further back over her base of support, she found it much easier to move herself around the bar and get underneath it. After all, it’s easier to just get brutally strong and pull weights really high, it’s much more difficult to put the bar in a spot that allows you to get underneath it efficiently.
It also couldn’t hurt to train the strength required for the pull under. I think that’s why the Chinese perform the panda pull; also helps to train that transition.
“how does doing cleans from the hang improve speed if you’re still only able to get under a weight you excessively high? My power clean is only about 5 kilos under my best clean and I’m getting under my best clean well above parallel and riding it down.”
You answered your own question.
You power clean.
Now why in the world, if you want to clean heavy weight, would you waste your time power cleaning?
Oh, and thats not me talking, thats from Tommy Kono.
According to Kono, it a totally different lift technique wise, so your teaching yourself bad habits that you revert to as soon as the weight gets too heavy. Do you really have the free time to learn two totally different ways to clean. I don’t.
Again, this was from a Kono seminar i attended. I quit power cleaning.
I don’t think Kono knows what he is talking about. The only technique difference should be that you actively pull yourself under the bar on cleans. I’ve never seen anyone else make the statement that the two involve different technique. How would they other than pulling yourself under?
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I don’t think Kono knows what he is talking about.[/quote]
You do realize that Tommy Kono was an 8 time medalist at the world championships and 6 time champion? A 3 time Olympic medalist and 2 time champion? That he set 21 world records in 4 different weight classes?
People nowadays are paying out the ass to hear Klokov preach on the lifts and he’s accomplished much less than that.
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I don’t think Kono knows what he is talking about. The only technique difference should be that you actively pull yourself under the bar on cleans. I’ve never seen anyone else make the statement that the two involve different technique. How would they other than pulling yourself under?[/quote]
That’s a HUGE part of the lift. And you just argued against yourself. Tommy Kono says that doing power cleans interferes with being good at cleans because the techniques are so different. You’re wondering why you aren’t good at getting under cleans, yet you JUST said that the only difference between power cleans and cleans is that in power cleans you don’t pull yourself under. I think that’s a pretty big difference if your problem is not catching the bar lower.
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I don’t think Kono knows what he is talking about.[/quote]
You do realize that Tommy Kono was an 8 time medalist at the world championships and 6 time champion? A 3 time Olympic medalist and 2 time champion? That he set 21 world records in 4 different weight classes?
People nowadays are paying out the ass to hear Klokov preach on the lifts and he’s accomplished much less than that. [/quote]
I already knew that. Regardless, it isn’t relevant. Winning medals doesn’t mean you can coach. There’s also the little fact he was successful in the 50’s and 60’s. Are you really going to argue the competition in that era is comparable to the level it has been at since the late 70’s? How does Klokov even figure into this conversation?
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I don’t think Kono knows what he is talking about. The only technique difference should be that you actively pull yourself under the bar on cleans. I’ve never seen anyone else make the statement that the two involve different technique. How would they other than pulling yourself under?[/quote]
That’s a HUGE part of the lift. And you just argued against yourself. Tommy Kono says that doing power cleans interferes with being good at cleans because the techniques are so different. You’re wondering why you aren’t good at getting under cleans, yet you JUST said that the only difference between power cleans and cleans is that in power cleans you don’t pull yourself under. I think that’s a pretty big difference if your problem is not catching the bar lower.
[/quote]
And that’s the only technique difference between the two. The set up is the same, the first two pulls are the same. The sole difference is pulling under. How is the technique drastically difference? If anything a clean is a just a power clean + pulling yourself under.
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I don’t think Kono knows what he is talking about.[/quote]
You do realize that Tommy Kono was an 8 time medalist at the world championships and 6 time champion? A 3 time Olympic medalist and 2 time champion? That he set 21 world records in 4 different weight classes?
People nowadays are paying out the ass to hear Klokov preach on the lifts and he’s accomplished much less than that. [/quote]
I already knew that. Regardless, it isn’t relevant. Winning medals doesn’t mean you can coach. There’s also the little fact he was successful in the 50’s and 60’s. Are you really going to argue the competition in that era is comparable to the level it has been at since the late 70’s? How does Klokov even figure into this conversation?[/quote]
Yes it is relevant. It’s not like Kono has been on the sidelines continuing to teach no thigh or hip contact and to press out jerks. He’s continued to coach and program and train lifters. He knows his stuff. A lot better than anyone here on this forum. If you want to get better at cleans, do cleans. If you want to get better at power cleans, do power cleans.
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I don’t think Kono knows what he is talking about. The only technique difference should be that you actively pull yourself under the bar on cleans. I’ve never seen anyone else make the statement that the two involve different technique. How would they other than pulling yourself under?[/quote]
That’s a HUGE part of the lift. And you just argued against yourself. Tommy Kono says that doing power cleans interferes with being good at cleans because the techniques are so different. You’re wondering why you aren’t good at getting under cleans, yet you JUST said that the only difference between power cleans and cleans is that in power cleans you don’t pull yourself under. I think that’s a pretty big difference if your problem is not catching the bar lower.
[/quote]
And that’s the only technique difference between the two. The set up is the same, the first two pulls are the same. The sole difference is pulling under. How is the technique drastically difference? If anything a clean is a just a power clean + pulling yourself under.[/quote]
That’s HUGE difference. Pulling yourself under is a learned skill that requires time, effort, and some serious balls to do. Especially in the snatch.
You’ve received an answer as to what your problem might be (doing too many power cleans and not enough cleans). You are apparently not satisfied with that answer. That’s fine, keep doing what you’re doing and ignore the people trying to help you.
This is completely off track. I asked how do HANG cleans help you get under? And then whatever the hell is name is said it doesn’t help me because I power clean. So how does doing power cleans suddenly ruin my clean? He doesn’t know anything about my training. For all he knows I clean 10x a week for the past year and just recently did a power clean for the hell of it to see where it was at. So that was a stupid statement. I’ve never seen a single Olympic weightlifter at high level do a power version of any lift. Ever. Not Klokov, Ilin, the big Iranian who’s name I can’t even begin to spell, not Dimas, not anyone. Ever.
Obviously the technique difference between the two is so vast that doing a power clean ever will completely ruin your clean technique.
Obviously if you want to get faster the most important thing to do is train the clean specifically and pull yourself under correctly. There’s a reason international lifters are blazing fast compared to most Americans. They’ve been training the pull under their entire life versus a few years. It takes time to develop any sport specific skill. I don’t if the hang clean specifically is going to improve it.
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I’ve never seen a single Olympic weightlifter at high level do a power version of any lift. Ever. Not Klokov, Ilin, the big Iranian who’s name I can’t even begin to spell, not Dimas, not anyone. Ever.
[/quote]
Then you need to open your freaking eyes. There are a couple of good videos that show the new Iranian doing power cleans. I’ve also seen many other videos showing many elite lifters power snatching and power cleaning, all you have to do is look!!
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I’ve never seen a single Olympic weightlifter at high level do a power version of any lift. Ever. Not Klokov, Ilin, the big Iranian who’s name I can’t even begin to spell, not Dimas, not anyone. Ever.
[/quote]
Then you need to open your freaking eyes. There are a couple of good videos that show the new Iranian doing power cleans. I’ve also seen many other videos showing many elite lifters power snatching and power cleaning, all you have to do is look!! [/quote]
[quote]amayakyrol wrote:
I’ve never seen a single Olympic weightlifter at high level do a power version of any lift. Ever. Not Klokov, Ilin, the big Iranian who’s name I can’t even begin to spell, not Dimas, not anyone. Ever.
[/quote]
Then you need to open your freaking eyes. There are a couple of good videos that show the new Iranian doing power cleans. I’ve also seen many other videos showing many elite lifters power snatching and power cleaning, all you have to do is look!! [/quote]