Biltritewave…NON primary sources? oh…you must be alluding to the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the book of Acts all of the books that Paul wrote…remember…he had a 1 on 1 encounter with Christ. Hmm…thats pretty much most of the New Testament. Are you going to stick by your claim about “nonprimary sources” bro???
tink bout dat…
Some of you have attempted to minimize historical violence associated with Christianity as compared to either Judaism or Islam by referring only to the Crusades and the Inquisition and describing them as essentially isolated incidents. You overlook the following: 1) The violent suppression of numerous heresies by civil authorities acting at the direction of the Roman Catholic Church during the Middle Ages, for example, the Albigensians; 2) the Hundred Years War, which was essentially a war fought by proxiesfor the Roman Catholic Church and various Protestant sects (it later degenerated into a generalized campaign of looting and pillaging by both sides); and 3) the Spanish and Portuguese-led forcible conversion to Christianity and subsequent enslavement of millions of South- and Meso-American aborigines (The conquistadors were accompanied by priests everywhere they went, and those priests were responsible, among other things for the destruction of most of the written records of the Maya and the Aztec civilizations.)
All of these events took place either at the direction of ecclesiastical figures or in the name of the Church. I won’t say the history of Christianity is more violent than Islam, but it is hard to argue that it is any less violent.
Further, the Crusades were hardly an isolated “incident.” They went on for hundreds of years.
Porkchop
Religion is the creation of man to explain what he does not understand. A God exists. There is one supreme force in the universe. We all worship him in differernt ways. I think he has a sense of humor about the whole thing and doesn’t concern himself with our trivial attempts to understand him.
Good is good and evil is evil in all religions. Albert Scwietzer gave the most concise meaning of good and evil I have ever read: “That which reveres life is good” That which does not is evil" It is as simple as that.
I am a muslim and stockedporcupine is way off the mark, what he is saying it totally untrue.
Islam does not prophogate violence like he says. His claim that during when islam was prevalant duting the ottoman empire is false, the fact is that during those battles many of the people fighting for islam were actually non-beleivers, Those battles revolved around freeng muslims from people of barbaric regimes.
What about the William the conquer, reveared by many throughout history but he was nothing more than a tyrant. What about the tortorous and barabric regimes of Roman, Greeks.
You won’t be taught this at public school. All battles past and present cannot be attributed to one faith or movement, and to do so is luicrously short sighted and ignorant.
In an islamic state non-beleivers are given exactly the same right as muslims (written in the koran). You are totally forbidden to kill non-beleivers, jus because he/she may be a non beleiver.
If islam is so intolerant of non beleivers then why do we muslims also beleive in Jesus and Moses???
If islam was so barbaric in it’s teachings then how do we have the oldest university in the world. Al-Azhar university in Cario, Egypt. Maybe you could alss tell me how this ‘violent’ faith is the fastest growing faith in the world. Would you care to know which country is seeing the fastest growth…the US of A!!!. your backyard!!!
If you went and talked to to an islam scholar and presented your views he would have no problem making you understand.
That is unless you are an islamic scholar, (i don’t think so) even your average muslim is not able to iterpret the koran because you need to be fully fluent in arabic, have knowlege to be able to understand it before making because any form interpretation, to get to this level takes people 20-30 years of knowledge seeking at least, any one with half a brain will read what you are saying and will disregard it.
I can go and read the bible/torah, make my interpretaion and start spreading it without any process to disucssing this with the educated people, namely scholars!!!,
How much knowledge have you of the koran to make interpretaions like the ones you made mr porcupine???
You are an ignorant and dangerous individual who thinks he know what he reads. Let me say my friend, you don’t!!. It’s people like you who spread hate not muslims.
Every faith has factions that are extreme in their thinking jus cos they get highlighted in the media does not make us violent.
Anyone wishing to learn to about islam, i would recommend listening to and reading Sheikh Hamza Yousuf, the most popualr scholar in the western world, born and bread in AMERICA, He was born a NON-MUSLIM, he knows and understands your way of thinking and much much more.
I am not a scholar, not even close to being one but i will try my best to answer any questions people may have, although it may take time as i may have to refer them to someone who is more knowledgable than myself… maybe i could ask stokedporcupine.
Here is an interesting thought to ponder. This coming from someone who lived and worked in the Middle East for a time.
Islam, as it is practiced in the majority of Arab countries, seems to be violent and fractured from what adherents call true Islam. Perhaps Islam is not the issue but the Arab goverments who apply and interprit it. I have always felt that the only place true Islam is practiced is in the US and Canada. Modern countries who allow freedom of religion. The shiek mentioned in the previous posts once stated that the Israeli’s treated him better then most Arab countries.
Hedo
Ren and Porkchop: Don’t forget that a good part of the colonization of Africa by European countries was also justified in the name of christianity as well, not to mention the transatlantic slave trade to the Caribbean and Americas. American slavery was maintained in the name of christianity for over 200 years.
Yes, I believe if JC had of had any idea of the atrocities that would have been committed in the name of christianity he would have stayed with his roots in Buddhism.
Ohhh…I did’nt just say that did I? Christ and christianity based on Buddhism…I think I did.
Steelyeyes: put one point in the Buddhism column.
Let the flaming begin.
“Forced conversion to Islam?”
Not as a general matter. Under the Mughals in India, the Hindu population was allowed to keep its religion. When the British showed up, there were numerous principalities with majority Hindu populations ruled by Muslim rajas. In the Balkans, which were ruled by the Muslim Turks for centuries, the Orthodox church continued to exist and minister to a majority of the population in, for example, Greece and Serbia. Some Balkan peoples converted individually or en masse because they felt it was to their advantage, but there was little conversion under pain of death. (Unlike the methods used by the Spanish Inquisition with respect to Iberian Jews.)
The fact is that adherents of all three religions have knowingly or ignorantly tried to justify violence on the basis of their professed beliefs. Empirically, it seems to make no difference which religion one professes, once you have identified with one group, life can easily become a matter of “us against them.” Once you “know” that “God” is on “your side,” anything can be rationalized as “God’s work.”
Porkchop
ok, well, the thread is slowly starting to deteriorate unfortunately, lets hope it can be salvaged if ppl stop their attacks.
To Tokman: Seeing ar you are a muslim, I have some questions I hop you can answer as I’d like to know a non-christian view on certain things. So first off, the crusades, what muslim power was in control and what tyrannical things if any were they doing to cause the catholic church to decide jerusalem needed to be free?? (i am thinking they were just pissed off that jerusalem was in muslim controlled territory, aka their egos got the better of them). 2 - When muslim first started spreading, how was it spread?? I am pretty sure I read about Muhammad attackign Mecca and then going on to conquer most of the arabian peninsula, how did he conquer and convert so many ppl and how did this change in his predecessors when they started venturing into North Africa and Europe. And I can’t really phrase my 3rd question properly right now, but I’ll ask it once I word it correctly.
Also, to stucross, saying that religion is the greatest cause of violence is not necessarily correct, violence was carried out in the name of religion, by men who thought that they were following God’s will, and I believe that most people know that no matter what religion you are God’s will is not to go about slaughtering people of different faith/views. Also, everyone knows john lennon goes on about a world without religion, but for those of you that don’t know it Hitler wanted the same thing, because he viewed the morals and teaching in religion an obstacle in shaping people’s minds to his will. So before you go on about how better off we would be without religion, think about what it does teach us and shapes us to be decent human beings.
who wins in a caged death match?
jesus vs. mohammad vs. abraham
the fight for the holy land only on paper-per-view!
PtrDR -
Sorry to burst your bubble buddy but the gospels were written and assembled 100-300 years after Jesus’s death - in terms of life expectancy during that period, this is tantamount to 5 - 20 generations later.
By the time of their writing, they were either oral histories or folk-lore, depending on how skeptical the person is you are asking.
God and I laugh about the game every day. Religion is not good or bad, nor is it necessary. God in my opinion is consiousness and experience expanding in all directions infinately. There is no good or evil, nothing can be separate from god. I like to make the point of people beleiving god is all powerful. OK then explain how someone can go against the will of god? If he is all powerful then his will is always carried out.
bedz: very funny mate, if a little off topic. I’d say muhammad namely b/c he is the youngest 
and he has experience in combat (caravan raiding, coquering mecca etc.)
Yeah but Jesus was a carpenter and back then it was even more physical than it is today. I’ll bet he was lot beefier, and a lot darker than the whimpy milk toast guy in the paintings.
My lack of knowledge of the three prevents me from really making a call. I’d say that Abraham would get knocked out pretty early in the game or would have summon up locusts or something. If it was a water fight, then I would put my money on Abraham, seeing that he can part the sea and all.
But I think it would come down to Jesus or Muhammad. Muhammad was kind of crazy wasn’t he though? Didn’t have any magical powers either if I recall. I mean, at least Jesus could heal people and change food. It’s be a good fight to watch.
Nope doppleganger…YOUR WRONG. John and others were EYEWITNESSES to the events and Dr.Luke talked to people who had seen what had happened firsthand.
Face it doppleganger…you don’t have to believe in Jesus Christ; but you have to accept that the gospels were written very soon after Christ’s death and that they are valid. Men much smarter than you or I have figured this stuff out!
In the end…if I believe in Jesus…I have lost NOTHING when I die…if that is that I believed in something false But…if you choose to reject Jesus…AND you are wrong about what happens when you die…then you have lost EVERYTHING.
So, if you want to make it a game of chance…then I can’t loose! I live a good life following Jesus! NO REGRETS!!
But…IF you are wrong…well…you fill in the blanks bro…
First of all, men “smarter than us” are people I work with, studied under, and wrote about. There is an enormous amount of debate in the field, for sure, but to claim that the gospels were eyewitness accounts is ridiculous - even the most pious academic admits that they are at least 50 years post-Jesus’s death.
And then, there is the whole issue of what gospels were accepted into the “modern” version of the bible, which wasn’t even assembled as such until 300 AD. Many, many gospels were left out, and debate raged well into the middle ages about which books should be included and excluded.
Basing your whole religion on a rewards/punishment system is messed up. It is a selfish selfish act. I try to live a good life, putting society before myself, happiness before wealth. If Jesus is God and rejects me for not falling to my knees every Sunday or blindly bleeting out words written by fanatics over 2000 years ago, then so be it.
I am a better man than many, many Christians I have known in my life.
Fanatics over 2000 year ago?..I guess Jesus was a fanatic when He did the miracles He did. And I guess people willingly going to their deaths for what they contend they witnessed qualifies for “fanatacism” also.
Funny thing…being a christian isn’t about falling on your knees every Sunday. I am not sure how or who mis educated you on this point. And whether you are better than anyone or not…that is JUDGING…and that is not you or my place. I am just saying what the Bible says: Without Jesus Christ and His free gift of Salvation…you are LOST and condemned. Its not Gods choice…or His will be done…Its YOUR CHOICE…YOUR WILL BE DONE!
Even though I may be a good person…next to a PERFECT AND HOLY GOD…my best is still crap! I am not saved by any righteousness of MY OWN. I am saved by a foriegn righteousness…the blood of God/Jesus Christ is the foreign righteousness that is Gods free gift of salvation.
But…God is fair and just: He will not pull you into Heaven, kicking and screaming…against your will. He wants people who WANT to be in heaven with Him.
Fact is: I am very comfortable about death…bring it on! I do know where I am spending eternity!! And if I am wrong and there is no eternity…then I have lost NOTHING. I was still a “good person” to use a term you use. So, if there is no heaven…but there is some kind of peaceful nirvanna…I am cool with that also!!
Personally…I LOVE the personal relationship I have with Jesus Christ through prayer…the Word of God…the fellowship with other believers…and the Holy Spirit that lives in my heart! That happiness can’t be duplicated by ANYTHING ELSE! Its worked for King David…for many Presidents…writers like Tolken…athletes like Aikman and White…Vick…Coleman…Labrada…and so many others…Im in some cool company!
doppelganger,
"Sorry to burst your bubble buddy but the gospels were written and assembled 100-300 years after Jesus’s death - in terms of life expectancy during that period, this is tantamount to 5 - 20 generations later.
By the time of their writing, they were either oral histories or folk-lore, depending on how skeptical the person is you are asking."
Jesus died in 33 C.E.
Matthew’s gospel was completed in c.41 C.E.
Mark’s was completed in c.60-65
Luke’s was completed in c.56-58
John’s was completed after he recieved the Revelation. That was 98 C.E.
In every case, you are wrong about 100-300 years. That is a fact of secular history.
I do understand what you are saying though.
Thanks for the dates Tim. I have this in a research book on the gospels…but couldn’t remember them offhand.
Lets see this guys come back to these facts.
Laterrrr…
you’d think with all we’ve dicovered/uncovered about the universe, that people would stop believing in god in the traditional sense and much less all these “scripts” that are supposed to be divine and the source of all knowledge.
if you study any sort of anthropology/sociology/archaeology, you’d see how primitive cultures always managed to maintain social organizatino under the premise that god would destroy them if they did not comply with the wishes of their superiors… as people realized that was bullshit the leaders began to incorporate more humanistic qualities in their gods so that they could reflect the growing awareness in the general population… because newton was aware of nature’s laws and that the universed seemed to govern everything a very specific way, he chose to beliee that god set the universe in motion and just took off and a great deal of people around the world today believe something along those lines.
how can anyone, with all the scientific progress in evolution, astrophysics, bioengineering, artificial systems, outlandish mathematics… how can anyone believe that god exists as described by some beat up old books made up by some drunkards and political spindoctors and not near what newton described like 400 years ago?
im not clowning religious in general… im just saying get with the times and stop taking old biased and goal-oriented scripts literally.