Christianity vs. Judaism vs. Islam

Off Topic
1

I was reading up on current events, mostly the political stuff and war with Iraq, when I came across an article talking about George W. Bush’s remark that the people of these 3 religions worship the same God. Interestingly enough he was slammed by the majority of christian ministers who said that Islam is a “violent religion” and that “their God” is not the same as “our God [christianity’s]”

I was just curious as to what the views of my fellow T-men are, as I personally feel these ministers need to take several courses in history and learn what they are talking about. I’ll post my major argument later tonight/early tomorrow b/c I have to go to work right now.

2

Jews and Muslims both come from Abraham, but Jews came from Abraham’s wife and Muslims came from his maidservant. So yeah, their “God” probably refers to the same historical God, and they both have equally valid claim to the land, but their other beliefs are really different. And of course Christians basically branched off of Judaism when Jesus came around. At least that’s the way I understand it…

3

oh no. Watch out.

4

Ren, I do not necessarily agree with the statement that Islam is more violent than any other. I do believe that the god of Islam is not the god of Christianity. The violence associated with the religions mentioned stem from the nature of man. Every religion has zealots some are just more extreme than others. Please do not take that comment to mean that I defend or support violence against anyone based on religion. I am a Christian and Christianity has had it?s share of zealots.

Me Solomon Grundy

5

Those ministers are obviously complete morons. Christianity has the most extensive history of violence out of all of the major religions. Islam is actually completely centered around peace. People judge the religion based on the actions of a few extremists. That’s like basing your opinions on Christianity on the actions of Timothy McVeigh, Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, etc. They were Christians, but most certainly didn’t reflect the norm.

6

Well, all three religions assert that there is and can be only one God and that the adherents of each worship only that one God. Assuming that the first premise is correct, then, logically, they all HAVE to be worshipping the same God. Your question actually confuses the question of attributes with the question of identity. (If everybody agrees that there is only one God, then they can only disagree about details.) They worship the same God, but attribute different qualities to him/her/it.

Actually, though, the differences between Christianity and Judaism have nothing to do with the identity of God, but rather with whether there has been a messiah or not. Islam actually teaches that the other two religions are, essentially, imperfect predecessors, to Islam. Jews and Christians are referred to as "people of the Book," and Islam recognizes both Jewish and Christian prophets -- that's why Muslims consider Jerusalem a holy city. At its best, Islam gives recognition and respect to both religions; at its worst, it (more properly, its radical adherents) is as intolerant as Christianity and Judaism have been at times in the past. (Both religions have dealt harshly with heresies at one point or another in the past.) Islam, however, asserts that Muhammed was the last prophet and that Islam is the ultimate religion.

Porkchop

7

This is going to get ugly.

8

Doax, You said “Those ministers are obviously complete morons. Christianity has the most extensive history of violence out of all of the major religions.” and then you said " People judge the religion based on the actions of a few extremists." Are you judging Christianity on a few extremists? A few can mislead many.

Me Solomon Grundy

9

Soloman, I’m not putting down Christianity. In fact, I myself am a Christian. I was simply stating that if you look back over history, far more people have died “in the name of Christianity” than any other religion. I never made an actual judgement of Christianity or said that it was bad. I only made an analogy to show how faulty the logic is of the people that base their opinions of Islam on the actions of people like Ossama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

10

Religion is a bunch of bullshit if you ask me.

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Daox, Thanks for the clarification. I jumped the gun. Sorry. I now understand the point you were making.

Me Solomon Grundy

12

Your right StephenF…religion is BS. Christians are supposed to have a personal relationships with God/JesusChrist. We do NOT worship the same God because Judaism and Islam reject the triune person of God. In Genesis God said “Let us create man in our own image…” clearly showing the plurality of God.
Basically…its like this: God is 3 Who’s and 1 What. The Father is God…The Son is God…and the Holy Spirit is God. And Jesus said the He and Father are 2 distinct witnesses and 2 distinct judges. Just as in the Jewish mandate for two witnesses in any civil litigation in court…which was the command that God gave them in Leviticus.
Now; Islam believes that Jesus Christ lived…but that he is only another prophet. In fact…they revere Jesus as a prophet and teacher. But that presents a problem for them when they say they revere Jesus as a prophet. If you revere a prophet…that is saying that you believe they are indeed a true prophet. Well…what did Jesus prophecy? Among many things…He prophecied that He would be turned over to men and be crucified and RISE on the 3rd day! See the Islamic inconsistency right there? They also revere Him as a teacher. Well…what was a thing He taught? He taught the He and the Father were ONE and that NO ONE comes to the Father except through Jesus! Thats a problem for Muslims.

Now…even secular historians admit that Jesus did in fact live…and was crucified. The problem now for those who do not believe is among other thing…the EMPTY TOMB…and the fact that the Jews wanted desperately to prove that Jesus was lying about rising in 3 days. Yet …no body turned up…and Jesus appeared to over 500 people at one time on one occasion. Hundreds of eyewitnesses to Jesus’s resurrection were willing to be burned…sawed in half…fed to lions…beheaded…disemboweled…all for what they claim that they indeed did see…that Jesus appeared to them after His crucifiction. Now…any reasonable person would agree that you would not willingly be horribly tortured and or killed for what you knew DEEP in your heart was a lie!!!
And the fact that the apostles…among many others…did not expect or understand that Jesus was going to rise from the grave at all! In other words…there were no pre expectations…because they did not understand…and also because some of them were so skeptical. Witness Thomas (aka…Doubting Thomas). He had to put his fingers in Jesus’s side before he would believe his own eyes! He also had to watch Jesus eat a piece of fish to prove that He was alive and real…and not a ghost.

The physical RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST is the key event in the history of the followers of Christ. That is what seperates Him from any line of prophets…whether they be true or false.

In the book of Colassians and the book of John…it clearly says that Jesus created all things…that all things were created FOR Him and BY Him. And that Jesus holds all things together. That He was with the Father before the beginning…and He is the image of the invisible God.

13

People associating with a religion with the intent of saying that they are right and everyone else is wrong are the same people that have been perpetuating the ignorance that causes violence and hatred. Its really quite helarious when you look at these self-righteous people; they are always pointing the finger at everyone else. I bet these Christians are always citing scripture as well to further their views. They might try “An Eye for an Eye”. Its too bad that the term “Eye for an Eye” has nothing to do with the popular belief that God, Jesus, or whatever is allowing vengeance. It has to do with the perpetuating of ignorance. “Why are you trying to remove a splinter from another’s eye when you cannot see the plank in your own?”

Let them live and die in their ignorance, stupidity, and anger. I’m really proud of George W. for his statement. Religion is a scourge on this Earth. We do not need it. I feel that spiritual understanding comes from within; you learn it as you go along in life. Religious fantaticism is what is causing all of the major problems in the world right now. Its time to pack it in and get real.

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Ptr, you should be a little easy with the use of bible verses. Let’s not forget that you are quoting the english translation ordered by an english king almost 400 years ago.

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Nope…im loosely quoting the NIV…New International Version. Its translated from the ORIGINAL greek. Not from King James…or Old English…and besides…the short little vs. I loosely quoted are very clear.

16

i normally don’t post anything here(beens so long i had to register again), but, i’ve seen this discusion so many times, and each time i can’t believe what i read… it amazes me.

Daox,

i don’t mean to come off as disrespectfull, but, i have to completely dis agree with what you are saying, and what many others are.

“Those ministers are obviously complete morons. Christianity has the most extensive history of violence out of all of the major religions. Islam is actually completely centered around peace. People judge the religion based on the actions of a few extremists. That’s like basing your opinions on Christianity on the actions of Timothy McVeigh, Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, etc. They were Christians, but most certainly didn’t reflect the norm”

christianity deffinitly does NOT have the move extensive history of violence out of the major religions, i here people say this alot, and i never get it. yes, there has been violence, there are the crusades, and also when the catholic church went after the jews, but, those are the only two major incidents in all of history where the christian church used violence. yes, obviously you can go and see isolated insidents where one of two people go and “kill for christ” or something, but, then again, every day i hear on the new’s where one of two extreme extreme muslims drive a car bomb somewhere in isreal… so, i don’t think you can even compare it.

i could go on and on about that all, and if you gave me a day or two look up alot of historical references and things to back it all up, but i’ll save that…

the major difference between violence by christianity and islam, is one religion condems it, and the other commands it. have any of you honestly read the koran? if you have, you would see that anyone who says islam is a religion of peace if full of fucking bull shit. Alla and mohammad COMMAND that all unbelievers are killed… the koran is FILLED to the brim with commands of how to handle the “infidels” and other things like that. if you don’t believe me, read it for yourself. also, during the middle ages, when islam was spreading arcoss the world, how was it spread? my muslim armies… they conquered land and forced everyone there to convert to islam, or be killed. you don’t believe me there? go look that one up in the history books as well(fuck, i remember that being taught to me in a public elementry school). islam IS a religion of violence, and fear, christianity deffinitly is not. what “extreme” muslims do, they do because they are commanded too. what “extreme” christians do, they do against what is taught in the bible.

the sad truth is, the “extreme” musclims who are terrorists ARE the ones who really are following there religion. the ones who comdem them, ironicly, are disobeying there own holy book just to make sure they don’t bring the rest of the world against them.

like people always say about muslims, you can’t judge a religion by its extremeists, you need to judge it by what it teaches… christianity deffinitly does NOT teach violence, and islam deffinitly DOES. just read the koran for yourself.

i honestly won’t take a side on any of that, i just want the facts to be clear. (the fact that christianity DEFFINITLY is not a violent religion by any streach of the imagination, and islam is in no way peace full when followed to the letter.)

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It sounds like you’re trying to start some shit. Same God, all three. As for history and current events, on the topic of Islam, www.danielpipes.org is a good site as is “www.memri.org,” which offers translations from the Arabic press to seriously blow your mind every day.

The highest ideal of Islam is peace, but peace under acceptance of Islam. You often hear that “Islam” means peace but it actually means “submission,” as in “submission to Allah.” Jews and Christians, “the people of the book” are allowed some measure of existence in what is called the “dhimmi” status–a degraded position that shows its submission to Muslim hegemony. Islam did not experience a period of internal reformation and the external influence of the Enlightenment, as Judaism and Christianity did. Moderate Islam is a force that’s just beginning now.

Last night on MEMRI, I happened to read the speech of a doctor in Iran who told his audience, “About 150 years ago, [a Muslim cleric] went to Europe; when he came back, he said, ‘I saw no Muslims in Europe, but I saw Islam’ [i.e. he saw righteousness]. In our time, we see Muslims, but we don’t see Islam (audience applause).” He has been arrested and sentenced to death for blasphemy. Look at The Call for Islamic Protestantism: Dr. Hashem Aghajari's Speech and Subsequent Death Sentence | MEMRI

The Muslims of India seem to have the most moderate Muslim ideas anywhere.

18

Since so many millions of people like to base their lives on a book, I would like to begin a new religion called “Hemingwayism.” This religion will be based on The Sun Also Rises; therefore, according to the good book we should all get drunk on wine, fish for some trout and watch some bullfights. Anybody want to join?

Also, the ORIGINAL Greek manuscripts were used primarily for the New Testament. The Old Testament of the NIV was translated form Hebrew and Masoretic texts.

19

PtrDR

First of all, I don’t want to sound like I am critisizing you or that I take issue with your opinion. I’m going to break your post down and just reply what it is I believe and why. I like to discuss religion with people who are reasonable. We won’t change each other, but I enjoy discussions because they make me think.

“In Genesis God said “Let us create man in our own image…” clearly showing the plurality of God.”

I’ve read the bible a few times and spent a great deal of time studying it. I have always read that verse as God talking to Jesus. Now Jesus only became Jesus when he was on earth. In heaven he was known as Micheal. I won’t go into the chain of scriptural references, but for the sake of understanding me, let’s just assume I’m right ok? :slight_smile:

Sorry for getting off the subject a little. So I read that as a converstaion between God and Jesus. My understanding is that Jesus is the firstborn of creation. So he is directly created by God." Col. 1:15?He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16?because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him"

Rev 3:14 “14??And to the angel of the congregation in La?o?di?ce?a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God”

Rev 1:1A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John."

Now I read those scriptures as meaning that God created Jesus directly, then through Jesus all other things came into existence. He is described in the scriptures as God’s master worker. (Prov. 8:30)

“The physical RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST is the key event in the history of the followers of Christ. That is what seperates Him from any line of prophets…whether they be true or false”

I agree 100% with you here. This is where the concept of a triune God doesn’t make sense to me. The rsurrection is the cornerstone of Chrisitanity. But if he didn’t really die, then his blood doesn’t cover our sins and make it possible for a resurrection of you or me.

At Jesus baptism (which is when he became the Messiah) God said the following (matt 3:16,17)“16?After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God?s spirit coming upon him. 17?Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: ?This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

If God and Jesus and the holy spirit are the same thing, then this verse muddies the waters. But it seems clear that Jesus and God are not the same person.

Now a lot of people say that Jesus made comments to the effect that “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father” or “I and the Father are one”

Does that prove that they are the same person. I can see where a person would think that. But that is not what Jesus said. For example:

?The Father is greater than I am.??Joh 14:28

18?No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. John 1:18

25?Jesus answered them: ?I told YOU, and yet YOU do not believe. The works that I am doing in the name of my Father, these bear witness about me. 26?But YOU do not believe, because YOU are none of my sheep John 10

9?By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him. 10?The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins. 1 John 4

17?Jesus said to her: ?Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ?I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.?? 18?Mary Mag?da?lene came and brought the news to the disciples: ?I have seen the Lord!? and that he said these things to her. John 20

Anyway, I know you disagree with me. That’s ok. I’m not here to change your mind or anyone else’s. I just enjoy the discussion.

I probably won’t reply to what you write unless you want me to. I was just stating my beliefs.

As to this thread, I researched Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. I wasn under the impression from going to the libaray, that the Jews worship Yahweh (or Jehovah), Christians worship Jehovah, but doint it through the teachings of Christ. He fulfilled the old Law, and Muslims worship Allah based on the teachings of Muhammed (sp?). Those really aren’t the same God. I’m not sure why Bush said that.

But I could be wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time :slight_smile:

20

Wow.

Islam doesn’t condone or command violence anymore than the Bible does. There is no “correct” religion; they are all wrong when taken into a context as to provide an “us against them” mentality. The arabs and islamic people are no more “nuts” than any other religious fanatic. Its a little different when you have your government constantly providing information to get the people to form a belief system. And conservatives wonder why a judge should be thrown in jail for posting the 10 commandments in a public building and refusing to remove it? The goal here shouldn’t aim for political correctness. Its the ignorance it began with that makes “politically correct” en vogue. If people didn’t have any reasons to perceive themselves as “us against them” there would be no need for it.

I can remember a time when the Russians were “bad bad people” and they needed to be destroyed. The same Russian people are still living there now. What changed? The difference is we don’t have a government and media that is vilifying them on a daily basis. Without the media, the news, and the constant barrage of information, its unlikely that the common US citizen would have had any reason to hate a Russian. This is what having an open mind is about. I’m sure people are thinking that Communist Russia was a bad place to live and they had the secret police watching everything they did. Welcome to the US of A under the “Patriot Act”. I’m just glad that common sense, not fear, is starting to guide the decisions of the lawmakers in this country; the judiciary. Ashcroft is a cop; we don’t need cops creating legislation to meet their ends. Good intention means nothing; its the effect. I’m sure Jose Padilla sucks; at least now, as a US citizen, he’ll get due process and the prosecution will have to prove it. These are the rights that are granted to you; granted through the priviledge of being born into this great country.

9/11 was an atrocity that demands justice. I’ve never seen such nationalism and an “us against them” mentality as I saw in the aftermath. I suppose the Patriot Act was a “natural reaction” to fear and its supposed to go away when things calm down (like they are now). Why are they asking for the Patriot Act II then? To purpetuate the American Religion. Its clear we are going to be Americans whether we like it or not.

This is why religion sucks.