I don’t think it’s necessary for a pure O-lifting forum here. There probably aren’t that many of us here to keep it fun and interesting, and besides, powerlifters are like a brother athlete to us; they are concerned with lifting heavy weights above all else, use a lot of the same training methods (westside for example), have to deal with the same gym problems such as, well, lifting more than everyone else around thereby making others feel insecure and uncomfortable, and heaven forbid if a little chalk gets on a piece of equipment, the whole gym now needs to be sterilized and fumigated. Overall powerlifters are a group of athletes that can contribute ideas to the table that benefit us too, so why try to separate this forum down the middle? Hey O-lifter, when we gonna hear more about Boevski? I am also curious to hear what he had to say about the Bulgar method of executing the jerk and if it lines up with what Krastev taught me.
As someone interested in both powerlifting and olympic lifting, I would like to hear more on the similarities between westside and bulgarian or russian lifting. To me they seem fairly different (even if westside is ultimately derived from russian science): westside hardly ever trains the competition lifts heavy, they use a ton of assitance lifts (which the bulgarians at least do not seem to do), they seem to train, at least with barbells, far less frequently, and they do more bodybuilding type work for hypertrophy in the bosterior chain and triceps.
It has always intrigued me as to wwhy olympic lifters seem to be able to train heavy with such frequency, so if someone can explain the source of the differences in the powerlifting training and o-lifting, i would appreciate it.
Yes, I, too, have heard that Westside System was derived from Russian science. I heard this first hand at a Elite FTS seminar (which rocked by the way). Louie mentions the scientist whom he based some of his theories on in one of his squat videos but I couldn’t make it out due to the mediocre sound quality. Does anyone know which scientist(s) Louie based his work off of?
Rob
[quote]floobadoo wrote:
It has always intrigued me as to wwhy olympic lifters seem to be able to train heavy with such frequency, so if someone can explain the source of the differences in the powerlifting training and o-lifting, i would appreciate it. [/quote]
I think it has to do with a variety of factors. Getting paid for lifting weights is a big reason IMO. I know I would lift heavier more often if someone was paying me a healthy sum to do so. For example, my friend from Europe tells me he was making upwards of the US dollar equivilant of $15,000 a month being a pro weightlifter. Another big reason is just lifting in a gym with other big lifters going all-out basically everyday is very motivating, as no one wants to be seen as being weak in such a place. From what I’ve gathered talking to such athletes, they seem to view inflammation and other pains as just the body getting stronger, and more training is necessary to speed up the strengthening process. This is a contrast to what we are usually taught over here that overtraining means backing off in some form or another. Maybe I’m sticking my head in the sand here, but I doubt the drugs are the only reason for their success, as we had the best drugs in the world all throughout the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s, with a wider variety, higher purity and potency than was ever used by the Europeans. As amazing as it sounds, all they use over there seems to be test, d-bol and occasionally winstrol and hGH. The ones I’ve spoken to have never heard of Anadrol, Halotestin, Tren or Anavar. I find it rather weak of character and mind to just say the juice is the only reason the Bulgars or whoever can handle such a training load while Americans can’t. They just think a little differently about such things is all.
I am not sure I understand your response: are you suggesting that powerlifters could be successfull training as frequently as o-lifters are reputed to do? ----I had figured the access to drugs between olympic lifters and elite powerlifters was pretty much equal (or better), and therefore, it would not at all be drugs which allowed for the significant increase in training frequency (aslo I have heard of drug-free o-lifters training heavy 6 days per week).
[quote]
It has always intrigued me as to wwhy olympic lifters seem to be able to train heavy with such frequency, so if someone can explain the source of the differences in the powerlifting training and o-lifting, i would appreciate it. [/quote]
Besides the (obvious) roids I think it also has to do with the lack of eccentric work in olympic lifting which is primarily concentric only action. It is well known fact that eccentric work results in muscle pains which causes most lifters to rest for awhile. If I remember correctly this issue was discussed in weightlifting encyclopedia.
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. Why wouldn’t PL’rs be able to lift as frequently? I mean most of your OL’rs squat daily anyway, and pulls and such would be comparable to deadlift work. From what I’ve heard Russian PL’rs work their full lifts virtually daily, that’s just how they know to train. It really comes down to the way you think, if you think you can or cannot do something, you are correct either way.
[quote]SLAM wrote:
Besides the (obvious) roids I think it also has to do with the lack of eccentric work in olympic lifting which is primarily concentric only action. It is well known fact that eccentric work results in muscle pains which causes most lifters to rest for awhile. If I remember correctly this issue was discussed in weightlifting encyclopedia. [/quote]
I’ll semi buy the lack of eccentric for the pull movements, but some form of squat is done daily, so it throws much of that theory out the window. To attribute it to roids is pretty silly, since they are easily available here in the US. Other factors which favor the western lifter are quality of food and living/training conditions. Have you guys seen the “new” Bulgarian facility in videos? It would be condemned in the US. Perhaps they just train harder because it is the only way they can improve their lives. Many of them came from manual farming communities and are used to hard labor, something you cannot say about most of us.
OlympicLifter, your experience with the Bulgar lifter confirms some essential truths about training:
First, one can and probably should train every day or almost every day, however this approach demands careful attention to recovery, and not pushing too close to the edge on any given workout
Second, Accelerating moderate weights can provide the same training effect as moving big weights slowly, but it isn’t as tough on the CNS
Third, lifting is a motor skill, and all skills require lots of practice? hence training many times each week.
Fourth, specificity rules the day. You are what you train.
Fifth and finally, training economy is essential? stick with a minimal exercise menu that provides the best cost to benefit profile.
Guys I’m typing up the post regarding Boevski’s technique. It’s going to be a long post, but I hope to have it up by Friday. Sorry this is taking so long, it would be a lot quicker if I had a computer of my own.
Olympiclfter - you almost got that post done about Boevski’s technique?
Regarding the Russian System: Here are some things I have experienced over the last 8 years olympic lifting and what I have experienced recently.
Right out of college, I trained like a Bulgarian–6 days a week: pulls and squats 4-5 of those days, and Sn. and C&J on Saturdays when I got to the platform. It worked great and I got really strong: P.Cl. 160kg, P.Sn. 120kg, 227.5kg B.Sq. at a weight of 90-92kgs. However, I was also working a job which would require me to get up very early. I would only get 4 hours of sleep a night. I’d come home after 6 hours of work, sleep 3-4 hours, get up and train, and go to class. That was 1996-1997. I have been unable to train or sleep that way since.
I then met up with my second weightlifting coach who’s a Cuban trained by the Russians including Mevedyev himself. As a Cuban lifter in the late 70s, he saw firsthand the Cuban team switch from a Russian system to a Bulgarian system. He said a lot of lifters got hurt and burned out. He trained me on a Russian system–I snatched 130kg and later P.Sn. 135kg. Cl. 170, Jerk 170kg. F.Sq 185kg. at bodyweight of 100kg. Not bad, not great.
Left a D-1 strength coach position and moved to NC 4 years ago so my wife could go to school, ran out of money and a place to train, started a business and trained and adapted to the stress of that routinely following the Russian principles I learned from my coach. At any give time I could lift 90% of my Cmax–all this with NO platform to lift on.
Last December, after spending 2-3 months rehabbing 2 compressed nerve roots in my lower back, I met up with my weightlifting partner who’s also a D-1 strength coach. I now had a D-1 S&C facility to work out in–including platforms and anything my heart desired or my body needed.
HERE’S WHERE THE LIGHT BULB WENT ON: We concluded that over the course of the last 20 years, since the Russians dominated the sport, sporting technique has changed, sport training has been dominated, especially here at the USOC by Bulgarian style training; Over the last 20 years, THERE HAS BEEN VERY LITTLE INCREASE IN THE TOTAL IN SUPERS WEIGHT CATEGORY. We concluded, in order to make constant gains, we needed to apply a Russian style training approach and used a Westside modification. I studied Westside–and all the Russian scientists that Louie got his material from (Medvedyev, Verkhoshansky, Zatsiorsky) applied it but not perfected it, and can conclusively say, a conjugate method style approach works great for weightlifters.
This approach taught me and my partner how to listen to our bodies again. And at age 31, working 12-14 hour days running my own business, sleeping 4-6 hours a night, using no supplementation other than whey, multi-vits., multi-Bs, and Vit-C, I was able to achieve the same results that I did 7 years ago at age 24 using a modified Bulgarian system–easily. (I should mention by bodyweight drifted up to 105kg–but the weights I was using in '97, I could hit anytime I wanted in training–like a 160kg Jerk after not doing any overhead work for 6 weeks.)
So all that testimony to say, a Russian system, I believe, will work better than a Bulgarian system for drugged or clean lifters.
Come on, keep the story going!
Can you be more specific about the “russian” method of training.
Also, you say you are as strong at 31 as at 24, is this unusual for olympic lifters (have they normally gotten weaker by your age–if so, that sucks), or is this just impressive b/c you are just as strong now, despite having a really busy schedule? Can you realistically hope to get much stronger?
I ask because I am 23, and although I suspect I am far less progressed in strength training than you were at my age, I hate to think my progress in olympic style lifts would stop in my early thirties.
[quote]floobadoo wrote:
Can you be more specific about the “russian” method of training.
Also, you say you are as strong at 31 as at 24, is this unusual for olympic lifters (have they normally gotten weaker by your age–if so, that sucks), or is this just impressive b/c you are just as strong now, despite having a really busy schedule? Can you realistically hope to get much stronger?
I ask because I am 23, and although I suspect I am far less progressed in strength training than you were at my age, I hate to think my progress in olympic style lifts would stop in my early thirties.[/quote]
If you can get ahold of footage of Soviet lifters in the late 70s and early 80s and compare them with the lifters of today, you will see a tremendous difference in their techniques. The Soviets and those influenced by their style of lifting, had much longer contact time of bar against thigh (thigh brush) than lifters do now. Lifters today, for the most part, bang/brush the weight out of the hip almost completely missing the thigh, especially in the snatch. That’s an example of technical difference. Now as far as programming difference, read Medvedyev’s, “A System of Multi Year Training in Weightlifting.” This is where the difference in Soviet training and Bulgarian training are most noticeable.
I’ve discussed speed/strength/age in conversations with my coach, and he has concluded (based on research that I haven’t seen)that your speed tends to decrease when your biological age hits somewhere between 32 and 34. However, I think it’s hard to tell. Perhaps the reason there are fewer older (35+) lifters is due to CNS burnout at the elite levels. Bud Charniga has an interesting point of view in his article on the '04 European Championships on his website: . I’d be interested in getting Christian Thibadeau’s point of view on this since he is/was an avid weightlifter. In his t-mag pictures, it seems to me he has a more Bulgarian style pull. I’d like to know to what extent he’s studied this topic.
As far as getting “much stronger” as you put it, Louie Simmons squatted 900lbs. at age 50+. I can’t squat 900lbs. yet, so I still have hope!
The coles notes version of the differences between Russian and Bulgarian programs:
Russian programs use a wide variety of exercises with different periods of loading eg hypertrophy, GPP, SPP, and competition. They also use more general conditioning and crosstraining away from competitive periods. Generally more reps at lighter intensities for SPP with varying exercises. Overall less focus on classical lifts.
The Bulgarians use a variation of about six exercises, snatch, clean and jerk, front squats make up most of the programs with back squats pulls and rack jerks added to some athletes programs and power versions at lighter intensitieson the way to heavier full lifts. Very heavy most workouts going to daily maxes multiple times a day. A program based on heavy workouts on classical lifts just about everyday, sometimes 15x a week.
I am by no means an expert but this is what I have found out regarding the varying programs of Russia and Bulgaria. I believe both programs have merits but variatios of both could be used at different times of the year for a more workable approch.
Rob
[quote]knobbers wrote:
The coles notes version of the differences between Russian and Bulgarian programs…
[/quote]
Yeah, that’s absolutely correct. This caused a major firestorm in weightlifting when it was first introduced to the outside world by Ivan Abanijaev (sp?)the Bulgarian coach who invented the system. He postulated that the more a system (read: body) performed specific [weightlifting] movements, the better the system would become at those movements AND the more the system performed those movements with near maximal (training max, TM) loads, the better the system would become at those movements. Leo Costa said it best: The body becomes its function. This comes in stark contrast to the Russian/Soviet system, which according to Zatsiorsky, in the 8 year period from 1980-1988, the average intensity of the weights used by their lifters was 75% +/-2% of competition best!
It was also interesting to note how the techniques changed as well. This could be to body structure–the Bulgarians were generally shorter than the Russians.
Can some enterprising individual find out how many gold medals the Soviets won before 1990 and how many the Bulgarians won. It would be interesting to see what the gold medal to population ratio would be.
I’d also be interested in knowing if the bulgarian lifters are noted for being weaker than those russian trained, when it comes to movements other than the competitive lifts. It would seem that such specific training would produce significantly less in terms of total strength. On a related note, is there much noticable difference in the physiques of the russian and bulgarian trained lifters?
Just trying to resurrect this thread. I’m a former powerlifting and olifter.
My training has migrated over the years, and I’ve spent a lot of time training like a Russian for both Olifting and Plifting. As for the carryover, one thing worth noting is that there are virtually no dominant bulgarian powerlifters, whereas russians dominate both sports.
Joe