[quote]LittleStrick wrote:
Well, I am definitely feeling my left shoulder this morning. I have a recurring nag on the front of it. Doc claims that it is inflamation/fluid buildup, around the bicep tendon tying into my shoulder. Of course, 2 shots of cortisone and a few weeks off never fully got rid of it.
Good grief, I am writing more about tweaks and pains than lifting. I’ll have to remedy that.
Anyway, all felt fine until I did the inclines and declines. They really tweaked it.
Tomorrow is squats again. Hopefully this one will get me used to the lifting and chase away the soreness.
sfp - thanks for the insight on the bench. I will go back to the tube and check some videos.[/quote]
I had a similar recurring pain for about 2 years. It didn’t go away until I got my bicep tendon replaced into it’s groove on the humerus. Didn’t know it was out, but once it was in I could tell the difference. Still working on changing my movement pattern around the right shoulder and strengthening the smaler muscles. You might get that checked.
If you continue to have aches and pains…I read all the time about people that can’t bench or perform some other exercise because of a chronic injury. They end up doing something as a replacement that doesn’t aggravate the injury: DB bench (neutral grip) instead of BB; DB incline instead of BB; dips instead of benching, etc. I couldn’t do pronate curls, rows, or pull-ups for a long time because of tendonosis. I just did everything supinated until it got better (9 months).
May not be as good for the ego, but it gets the job done, and I suppose you need to weigh which is more important in the long run (tough choice, I know).
[quote]63Galaxie wrote:
sfp is right. As your flaring out, what tends to happen is your actually pulling in more shoulder. Ive done it so bad Ive rotated my shoulder. Like a shrug. Along with keeping your elbows tucked, squeeze your shoulder blades before you start. It will help keep you as “a unit”. That way one muscle doesnt try to take over. Youlll be surprised how much it will help. [/quote]
I didn’t notice my shoulders rise up (shrug), but they defintely rotated up a bit (like a lateral). I think my setup is pretty close to right…feet planted, up under me, shoulder blades pulled in, where I am resting on my shoulder blades and rear…kind of in a cocked position. (I’ll try to get some vid next workout) It has always felt right.
I am starting to wonder, though, if I am not holding my elbows too close in to my body, during the rep. Watching several videos, it seems that most people have there upper arms slightly closer to perpendicular than to hugging their sides 35-40 degrees off of perpendicular. I think I am the opposite…50-60 degrees off of perpendicular (closer to my sides).
I am not sure if this is proper or a bad habit I picked up while compensating for an ache.
[quote]skidmark wrote:
I had a similar recurring pain for about 2 years. It didn’t go away until I got my bicep tendon replaced into it’s groove on the humerus. Didn’t know it was out, but once it was in I could tell the difference. Still working on changing my movement pattern around the right shoulder and strengthening the smaler muscles. You might get that checked.[/quote]
That is definitely something to check into. And, honestly, it fits what I felt when it happened. I was doing OH DB presses and I felt something shift. It wasn’t especially painful, but definitely a shift of something.
sfp-
Ego is definitely hard to overcome. Fortunately, with the elbow and wrist issues, they mainly effect curling, rev. grip chins and wide rows. I hate biceps. I couldn’t pay my biceps to grow. I’ve tried high weight/low reps, low weight/high reps, supersets, drop sets, rest pause, tons of sets, almost no sets. It doesn’t matter. They hate me. So I shed no tears over them.
The shoulder, however. I love shoulders. This issue has got to be fixed. In reference to your advice, I think I might try the DBs for incline and decline. The BB versions are what really aggravated it.
Squat time, this afternoon. My shoulders are feeling better. Unfortunately, my legs are still a bit sore from Sunday. Hopefully today’s work will push that the rest of the way out.
Also, in reference to my early mentioned back issues. My doc has scheduled me for a CT tomorrow…to get a better look at what is actually there. I really like my doc. He definitely approaches it from the “we” perspective. Of course, the fact that I setup his PCs and network probably doesn’t hurt.
Okay. Squat day turned into anything but. I got 3 sets into it and could tell that my quads still weren’t ready for another go. Maybe THIS is why some folks do bench day/dead day/squat day. Or, maybe, I’m just a pansy-ass and can’t cut it!?
Nah, I’ll stick with the “I’m still getting used to lifting again” excuse.
Anyway…the workout
Squats
Barx10x2
135x8x2
225x5
135x8
Deads
135x5
225x5
295x5
315x5 PR +2 reps (not sure if this counts, since I just started doing them 3 1/2 weeks ago)
325x3x2
BB Bent Over Rows
135x10
155x10
185x8x2
155x12
Supersets
Seated Cable Rows
160x15
160x12
160x11
Rev. Flyes
30x8
30x6x2
The squats sucked. I was happy with the deads, though. I am still having the hardest time at the bottom of the pull. I sure wish my legs would wake up!
I also need to work on my squat form. I can feel myself, on the “hard” reps, rolling onto the balls of my feet. I am contemplating staying at 135# and 185# until I can sitdown for 10 reps per set. Once I can do that, maybe they will be awake/acclimated enough to start adding weight.
I think you can do them on the same day as a novice, but once one or the other gets into any respectable poundage e.g you’re pushing into limit strength after the newbie gains stopped coming, it becomes too much stress to recover quickly from. Depending on the program, sometimes you can’t even do them in the same WEEK.
[quote]skidmark wrote:
I think you can do them on the same day as a novice, but once one or the other gets into any respectable poundage e.g you’re pushing into limit strength after the newbie gains stopped coming, it becomes too much stress to recover quickly from. Depending on the program, sometimes you can’t even do them in the same WEEK.[/quote]
The biggest difference between now, and a few weeks ago, (aside from the soreness) is that I don’t feel fresh at my workouts. It has been 3 days since I benched and I am still having occassional spasms in my upper pecs. My outer quads still feel drained and are a bit achy. Upper body-wise, I am sure that the deads are adding to it. Not having really done them before, I am amazed at the number of upper body muscle groups that are affected by them.
I think that splitting deads and squats onto different days would be psychologically palatable to me, as there is overlap. It is the bench that I really worry about. Six days between workouts seems like a lot. In the past, that long between workouts never allowed me to get beyond the intital DOMS phase. Maybe some ancillary chest/tri work on a leg day would be sufficient.
Skid- Thanks for the insight. That is definitely one of the reasons I started posting.
In the past 28 years, I would say that 10 of them were actually spent training hard (broken into several phases…13-18, 20-22 and 28-30). While I was not doing any proven program, I had a good idea of how things worked and the intensity was there (envision pushing against a wall with all your might). Now, though, as time has robbed me of some of my ability to recover, and new exercises are in the mix, I really do feel like I am coming into it somewhat blind.
If you’re still getting spasms more than two days after a training session, you might need to look at some supplementation, if you aren’t already - e.g magnesium/calcium and sodium/potassium balance. Dehydration can cause that too. I’m frequently guilty of not getting enough water and that usually results in cramps and spasms.
When I was doing 3 working days per 6 day cycle I did bench day,squat/dead day and assistance day.
Bench day was - main bench, supplementary bench,triceps
Squat/dead actually did both, but if Squat was first movement then dead were done at light weight for speed and form. If a deadlift variation was first then squats were done for speed and form at light weight.
Assistance Day was overhead press - alternating heavy overhead in one cycle with a high rep shoulder circuit in the next cycle - rows and maybe biceps.
Made some pretty good gains with it and would still be doing that if I weren’t giving 5/3/1 a whirl right now. I made a mistake during that run and didn’t vary my reps enough (concentrated on triples too long) and so started to stall. When I go back to it, I’ll likely incorporate some concepts from 5/3/1 into it - e.g. having a 5’s week a threes week and then a 5-3-1 week. As you can see I was benching only once every 6 days or so, but was getting stronger.
Agreed with Skid on deads affecting everything. You just have to tweak your program to accomodate that.
For example, I am moving into heavy pulling the next 3 weeks. To accomodate squatting 3x/week, I have turned a training week into 9 days. No squatting at least 60hrs before deads, and no squatting at least 60hrs after deads.
Keep experimenting until you find something that is optimal for recovery.
Thanks for the advice. I drink A LOT of water. Probably around 1 1/2 gallons a day. I also take a multi, Omega 3 and glucosamine…in the mornings, a vitamin C, Vitamin E and glucosamine…right after lunch and an Omega 3 and glucosamine…in the evening. I do at least 2 protein shakes a day, with extra BCAA and creatine added, using skim milk (I hate mixing it with water). I sometimes sub glutamine for the creatine…but not often.
That split actually looks really good. I am having to fight hard with patience, right now. I LOVE bench and want to do it even when sore, tired or just getting finished with it. That is probably what held me back in the past. I would bench all the time.
The squat I am just going to have to be patient with. They will come, just not nearly as fast as I would like. For the time being, I think I am going to make them secondary to my deads (sticking in the 135-185# range, as I mentioned earlier.
I would actually do it the other way around. Really focus on squats as the muscles worked are the main drivers of the deadlift. Most people find that if they work their squats seriously their deadlift goes up.
I took my dead from 405 to 465 deadlifting only 6 light singles a week, but I pounded squats and good mornings mercilessly during that time.
Or…I could pound squats and go light on the deads…just kind of popped into my head, as I was reading Skids comments.
My concern with that is, given the disparity in load (225 for 5 on squats and 315-320 for 5 on deads) that I will be neglecting the deadlifts until my squats catch up. That could be a while. Of course, I could just throw in a couple of heavy-ish dead sets, after the squats, to ease my mind.
Power rack is supposed to be here, on Monday. That will help the mental aspect of squatting, as I have been concerned about getting stuck at the bottom.
I am struggling with stance, as well, on the squats. The way I am currently standing, it seems to really hit the outside of my quads and my hips, on the front. I played with widening my stance, but I can’t seem to get as low that way.
Are you turning your feet out a bit? Keeping the toes pointing forwards puts a lot of stress on the outside of the thigh and makes it difficult to make depth with a wide stance. Then let the knees travel out towards the toes as you go down.
I saw some kid in the gym squatting wide with toes straight ahead and best he could do was a half squat. I used to do it that way as well as having my stance too narrow for years and the outsides of my knees started to kill me. Soon as I pointed my toes out all my knee problems went away. Now I have adductor tightness - which is where the problems should be occurring when you’re a punk-ass weakling like me.
[quote]skidmark wrote:
Are you turning your feet out a bit? Keeping the toes pointing forwards puts a lot of stress on the outside of the thigh and makes it difficult to make depth with a wide stance. Then let the knees travel out towards the toes as you go down.
I saw some kid in the gym squatting wide with toes straight ahead and best he could do was a half squat. I used to do it that way as well as having my stance too narrow for years and the outsides of my knees started to kill me. Soon as I pointed my toes out all my knee problems went away. Now I have adductor tightness - which is where the problems should be occurring when you’re a punk-ass weakling like me.[/quote]
I do turn my feet out, but it may not be enough. Trying it here at my desk (interesting looks from the co-workers) it appears that they might need to go out a bit more. I am assuming that your knees should travel directly towards your toes, as you squat?? With my current stance, my knees are traveling over my feet, but at an angle (toes are turned in from the path of my knees).
[quote]LittleStrick wrote:
skidmark wrote:
Are you turning your feet out a bit? Keeping the toes pointing forwards puts a lot of stress on the outside of the thigh and makes it difficult to make depth with a wide stance. Then let the knees travel out towards the toes as you go down.
I saw some kid in the gym squatting wide with toes straight ahead and best he could do was a half squat. I used to do it that way as well as having my stance too narrow for years and the outsides of my knees started to kill me. Soon as I pointed my toes out all my knee problems went away. Now I have adductor tightness - which is where the problems should be occurring when you’re a punk-ass weakling like me.
I do turn my feet out, but it may not be enough. Trying it here at my desk (interesting looks from the co-workers) it appears that they might need to go out a bit more. I am assuming that your knees should travel directly towards your toes, as you squat?? With my current stance, my knees are traveling over my feet, but at an angle (toes are turned in from the path of my knees).
[/quote]
Correct, the knees should naturally travel towards the toes. If you start going for 1RMs then you might turn your feet in to get the extra tension for getting out of the hole, but to strengthen the glutes and hams keeping the toes out has been best for me.
[quote]skidmark wrote:
LittleStrick wrote:
skidmark wrote:
Are you turning your feet out a bit? Keeping the toes pointing forwards puts a lot of stress on the outside of the thigh and makes it difficult to make depth with a wide stance. Then let the knees travel out towards the toes as you go down.
I saw some kid in the gym squatting wide with toes straight ahead and best he could do was a half squat. I used to do it that way as well as having my stance too narrow for years and the outsides of my knees started to kill me. Soon as I pointed my toes out all my knee problems went away. Now I have adductor tightness - which is where the problems should be occurring when you’re a punk-ass weakling like me.
I do turn my feet out, but it may not be enough. Trying it here at my desk (interesting looks from the co-workers) it appears that they might need to go out a bit more. I am assuming that your knees should travel directly towards your toes, as you squat?? With my current stance, my knees are traveling over my feet, but at an angle (toes are turned in from the path of my knees).
Correct, the knees should naturally travel towards the toes. If you start going for 1RMs then you might turn your feet in to get the extra tension for getting out of the hole, but to strengthen the glutes and hams keeping the toes out has been best for me.
[/quote]
I’ve also noticed that in meat’s videos his shins remain vertical or nearly so during the entire squat. The only way I come close to achieving that is to force a hard arch in my back and feel like I’m reaching backwards with my rearend. The bar then comes straight down in line with shins and feet.
[quote]soldog wrote:
I’ve also noticed that in meat’s videos his shins remain vertical or nearly so during the entire squat. The only way I come close to achieving that is to force a hard arch in my back and feel like I’m reaching backwards with my rearend. The bar then comes straight down in line with shins and feet.[/quote]
I will go back and check his vids. It seems (at least it is my perception) that I am overly forward, when starting to come back up, bacause my back is stronger than my legs. When I lean forward, it allows me to get my ass out of the hole, to where I am stronger. My back then pulls back up. I can get away with this at these weights, but that will be a serious problem going forward…on several levels.
On a side, but related, note, I had my CT today. The radiologist reports…
Findings are suspicious for chronic pars defect at the L5 level with grade 1 anterolisthesis of L5 relative to S1.
There is mild to moderate disc space narrowing and degenerative endplate signal change including vacuum disc phenomenon at the L5-S1 level.
That confirms what I heard at 16. I guess the big question is, what does it mean as to the lifting. At 16 I was told no squats, no deads, no push press, blah, blah, blah. Given how I am feeling right now, I don’t see a need to stop them. Of course, the weights I am playing with are not that great. Obviously, it is not worth causing a permanent injury. It will be interesting to get the doc’s take on it.