[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
I was supposed to do chest, bis and tris today. After I was done with the pinwheels, I had already been in the gym for over an hour and I did not feel I would give my next exercise justice. (GGP off pins)
I just went home. It always seems like I’m half-assing my way thru triceps, so maybe I should do Chest/Bis, Legs, Back/Tris, Delts/Abs or some such? I’m looking around the T-cell and this thread here for ideas right now.
Sorry about cluttering up your thread when you’re obviously busy elsewhere. Feel free to ignore me, lol.[/quote]
Why does it take you so long to get through chest and bis?
[quote]bwhitwell wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage
Do you have any advice for bicep tendonitis? My problem started in 2003 with a c6-c7 buldging disc which was treated with PO decadron. The pain went away quickly but I had weakness in my right tricep, upper chest, and upper back. I slowly advanced training poundages and over a year it recovered, except when I pushed myself on any kind of chest press , shoulder press was OK as long as I did not take the bar below my chin or flare my elbows. I feel like I cannot stop my right shoulder from raising off the bench when I get close to failure. I have been doing face pulls since the initial neck injury and felt like that helped until I started trying to give up my fast pace high rep work for a little slower heavier ramp work on chest. Strange though that I have no problem with heavy dips.I never have any problems with weighted chins or rows except for supinated BB rows. I just bought the Elite swiss bar with a neutral grip and tried 30 deg. incline press and had a little less pain. I will continue and see if the new bar helps. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.[/quote]
I’m no medical professional…
Didn’t you say bicep tendonitis? Don’t you mean nerve damage or something like that? You threw some bulging disks in there etc, I don’t understand how that relates to bi tendonitis… Or are you really referring to two separate problems?
This is a little beyond my experience considering all those injuries you have.
Go pm BBB and/or the doc who recently joined the T-Cell, I forgot his handle… He posts in the Shoulder Surgery thread I think?
[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
Sorry if I’m being a pest C_C, but inquiring noobs want to know
-Would DB shoulder presses be OK for the 5RM ramping thing? I worked up to the 35kg’s today and while it takes a little out of me to get them into position, I like that particular exercise a lot.
[/quote] Hm. Would be a problem for me, to be honest… Might be my thin wrists though, I dunno. Try it out, once you get to the heavy bells though, you might have to change something. [quote]
-What should I do for the lateral raises? Did 2x8 today, with a couple of warm ups before.
[/quote] I’m guessing low reps as well. Gotta ask CT if you’re using his methods, or wait for I Bodybuilder to come out and clear everything up. [quote]
-Widowmaker squats are cool and all, but putting them before SDL’s and abs means that I’m not really very motivated to give them justice. Would it be alright to go SDL’s–>abs—>Squats?[/quote]
That’s one of the reasons for why we don’t do back squats and SLDL’s in the same session in DC. Other than potential low-back issues etc.
For a regular routine, well, you could drop the widow and do a set at 85 percent of your max squat working weight that session and get as many reps as you can. CT described that somewhere…
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Mr.Purple wrote:
I was supposed to do chest, bis and tris today. After I was done with the pinwheels, I had already been in the gym for over an hour and I did not feel I would give my next exercise justice. (GGP off pins)
I just went home. It always seems like I’m half-assing my way thru triceps, so maybe I should do Chest/Bis, Legs, Back/Tris, Delts/Abs or some such? I’m looking around the T-cell and this thread here for ideas right now.
Sorry about cluttering up your thread when you’re obviously busy elsewhere. Feel free to ignore me, lol.
Why does it take you so long to get through chest and bis?
[/quote]
Well I’m doing more work-sets now… doing the “ramp to 5RM” thing.
I don’t know how much rest I’m taking between sets, probably too much. I could try timing my rest periods instead of going by feel.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Mr.Purple wrote:
Sorry if I’m being a pest C_C, but inquiring noobs want to know
Hm. Would be a problem for me, to be honest… Might be my thin wrists though, I dunno. Try it out, once you get to the heavy bells though, you might have to change something.[/quote]OK, I guess I could jerk a barbell up and use that, or the smith machine. Reason I don’t want to use the smith is that it falls over, meaning I have to weigh it down on the other side first. Tedious.[quote]
-What should I do for the lateral raises? Did 2x8 today, with a couple of warm ups before.
I’m guessing low reps as well. Gotta ask CT if you’re using his methods, or wait for I Bodybuilder to come out and clear everything up.[/quote]I did ask CT, but he ignored me. Guess I don’t buy enough supplements [quote]
-Widowmaker squats are cool and all, but putting them before SDL’s and abs means that I’m not really very motivated to give them justice. Would it be alright to go SDL’s–>abs—>Squats?
That’s one of the reasons for why we don’t do back squats and SLDL’s in the same session in DC. Other than potential low-back issues etc.
For a regular routine, well, you could drop the widow and do a set at 85 percent of your max squat working weight that session and get as many reps as you can. CT described that somewhere…[/quote] Well I can’t go on doing leg curls forever shrug
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Hey CC, any gripes? (All weights are ramped.) I generally went off of one of your templates[/quote] 5 sets of 10, even ramped, seem rather excessive and a waste of energy before you get to your top set… Or do you curl the 125lb DB’s on alt. curls? [quote]. I paired biceps with the triceps though[/quote] Sure you want yet another lift on upper body days? That time would be better spent doing inverted rows, face pulls or whatever, imo. [quote], added in cleans and snatches, and maybe some extra ham work. [/quote] What do you want to do, get good at deadlifting or get good (i suppose) at cleaning and then throw some deadlifts in for the hell of it afterwards?
Also, while you can do 5/3/1 for cleans and such, there have to be better alternatives… Those are oly lifts after all. On 5/3/1, one usually does a lot of reps on ones’ third work set during waves 1-3.
5-12 basically… I don’t know about you, but doing 8 or so cleans in one set… Then you have a fatigued upper back and posterior chain in general and want to do deadlifts?
Maybe you can do it, I wouldn’t.
[quote]
Day 1
5/3/1 Military press
Rack chins - 5x10
DB low incline bench - 5x10 [/quote] Pressing work is imo best done with a fresh back, otherwise you won’t be able to keep your setup tight (fatigued scapular manipulators). I know many don’t care, but many also end up with shoulder/bi tendon injuries… So.
[quote]
Alt. DB curls - 5x10
CGBP - 5x10 [/quote] Free-weight CGP is not a lift to be done at the end of a session… Especially not when you do them with PL setup and actually care about making real progress here. I suggest using In-Humans, SWRGB’s or 2-Board/Pin (as far off the chest as necessary to take the shoulders mostly out) presses.
Or, if you’re already doing a lot of pressing that session, go for Dead Stop Extensions, PJR’s or Scott Extensions.
I wouldn’t want to train that way… It’s your call though.
One thing for raw lifters and natties: You’ll very likely get better results by focusing on less lifts. Your body, unless you’re genetically gifted in that way, does not exactly have a crazy amount of recovery/adaption resources at it’s disposal… Add life to that and you may end up stalling a lot/getting systematic fatigue build-up etc.
I would really recommend the original template for a while, you can make adjustments later…
So on DL day, have conv. DL’s or power cleans or whatever as your ham work, and do extra ham stuff on squat day.
Squat day has squats as “quad” work (if you squat raw, then you probably want to squat with a not super-wide stance or you won’t have much power coming out of the hole, so it’ll be more of a quad thing again) and you do extra quad stuff on DL day.
Weighted ab work and/or EZ/Ab-wheel rollouts on both days, important.
Calf work… If you need it, do it whenever you want… Upper or lower doesn’t matter imo, see which days leave you with a bit more energy and do calf work on those.
Biceps or Brachialis/forearms (pinwheels) first thing on squat day, and after deadlifts or cleans or whatever on deadlift day. One of the days is for pinwheels or hammers (imo pinwheels would be the best choice), the other day some curl variant for the bis, but don’t make it one that bothers your wrists or forearm bones… You could even do 2 exercises here if needed/if you have the time, but standard would be just 1.
Upper days… If you do free-weight CGP, then imo as a 5/3/1 main exercise instead of bench. Otherwise ditch it! You’re better off with the exercises I mentioned above as tri assistance. If you do CGP as a main exercise, don’t forget to shift your assistance emphasis so that your off-the-chest strength won’t suffer.
(i.e. benching from a dead stop off the pins just off the chest or DB benching or paused benching or whatever).
Back work comes after the pressing. Don’t forget that half (or more) of a row is really just retracting your scapulae. If you build your strength up with that in mind on rows, you likely won’t have to spend much time doing inverted rows or face pulls and your pressing setup will be much more stable, no shoulders slipping out etc…
[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Mr.Purple wrote:
I was supposed to do chest, bis and tris today. After I was done with the pinwheels, I had already been in the gym for over an hour and I did not feel I would give my next exercise justice. (GGP off pins)
I just went home. It always seems like I’m half-assing my way thru triceps, so maybe I should do Chest/Bis, Legs, Back/Tris, Delts/Abs or some such? I’m looking around the T-cell and this thread here for ideas right now.
Sorry about cluttering up your thread when you’re obviously busy elsewhere. Feel free to ignore me, lol.
Why does it take you so long to get through chest and bis?
Well I’m doing more work-sets now… doing the “ramp to 5RM” thing.
I don’t know how much rest I’m taking between sets, probably too much. I could try timing my rest periods instead of going by feel.[/quote]
When ramping in 3-5 or so, you don’t need much rest at all until you reach the last few sets imo… But it’s individual. Don’t use your old 6-10 rep top sets as a measure for how long to rest…
[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Mr.Purple wrote:
Sorry if I’m being a pest C_C, but inquiring noobs want to know
Hm. Would be a problem for me, to be honest… Might be my thin wrists though, I dunno. Try it out, once you get to the heavy bells though, you might have to change something.OK, I guess I could jerk a barbell up and use that, or the smith machine. Reason I don’t want to use the smith is that it falls over, meaning I have to weigh it down on the other side first. Tedious.
-What should I do for the lateral raises? Did 2x8 today, with a couple of warm ups before.
I’m guessing low reps as well. Gotta ask CT if you’re using his methods, or wait for I Bodybuilder to come out and clear everything up.I did ask CT, but he ignored me. Guess I don’t buy enough supplements
-Widowmaker squats are cool and all, but putting them before SDL’s and abs means that I’m not really very motivated to give them justice. Would it be alright to go SDL’s–>abs—>Squats?
That’s one of the reasons for why we don’t do back squats and SLDL’s in the same session in DC. Other than potential low-back issues etc.
For a regular routine, well, you could drop the widow and do a set at 85 percent of your max squat working weight that session and get as many reps as you can. CT described that somewhere… Well I can’t go on doing leg curls forever shrug
[/quote]
Guess you can just alternate then… 1 Week squats+leg curls, other leg presses+SLDL… OR 1 week squats+widow+leg curls, other week squats+no widow+sldls.
Hey C_C, I’ve read through a good portion of this thread and have found a lot of useful info that I’ve applied to my training. I think it’s cool that you take time out of your day to answer people’s questions and not only that but help guys out at your gym at no charge. Pretty cool, man.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
bwhitwell wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage
Do you have any advice for bicep tendonitis? My problem started in 2003 with a c6-c7 buldging disc which was treated with PO decadron. The pain went away quickly but I had weakness in my right tricep, upper chest, and upper back. I slowly advanced training poundages and over a year it recovered, except when I pushed myself on any kind of chest press , shoulder press was OK as long as I did not take the bar below my chin or flare my elbows. I feel like I cannot stop my right shoulder from raising off the bench when I get close to failure. I have been doing face pulls since the initial neck injury and felt like that helped until I started trying to give up my fast pace high rep work for a little slower heavier ramp work on chest. Strange though that I have no problem with heavy dips.I never have any problems with weighted chins or rows except for supinated BB rows. I just bought the Elite swiss bar with a neutral grip and tried 30 deg. incline press and had a little less pain. I will continue and see if the new bar helps. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
I’m no medical professional…
Didn’t you say bicep tendonitis? Don’t you mean nerve damage or something like that? You threw some bulging disks in there etc, I don’t understand how that relates to bi tendonitis… Or are you really referring to two separate problems?
This is a little beyond my experience considering all those injuries you have.
Go pm BBB and/or the doc who recently joined the T-Cell, I forgot his handle… He posts in the Shoulder Surgery thread I think?
[/quote]
I posted my question to urbanski, thanks.
I am not sure if there is a correlation with the disc injury and the shoulder issue, its just since the disc problem, I have had a hard time keeping my shoulder back during presses. I think there might be a problem with my rotator cuff doing its job. When I do dips, my shoulder is forced to stay back and seems more stable and I have no pain.
I could be wrong with the old disc injury and my shoulder pain, just frustrating. I don’t have any problems with lighter weight , might have to be satisfied with that.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Mr.Purple wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Mr.Purple wrote:
Sorry if I’m being a pest C_C, but inquiring noobs want to know
Hm. Would be a problem for me, to be honest… Might be my thin wrists though, I dunno. Try it out, once you get to the heavy bells though, you might have to change something.OK, I guess I could jerk a barbell up and use that, or the smith machine. Reason I don’t want to use the smith is that it falls over, meaning I have to weigh it down on the other side first. Tedious.
-What should I do for the lateral raises? Did 2x8 today, with a couple of warm ups before.
I’m guessing low reps as well. Gotta ask CT if you’re using his methods, or wait for I Bodybuilder to come out and clear everything up.I did ask CT, but he ignored me. Guess I don’t buy enough supplements
-Widowmaker squats are cool and all, but putting them before SDL’s and abs means that I’m not really very motivated to give them justice. Would it be alright to go SDL’s–>abs—>Squats?
That’s one of the reasons for why we don’t do back squats and SLDL’s in the same session in DC. Other than potential low-back issues etc.
For a regular routine, well, you could drop the widow and do a set at 85 percent of your max squat working weight that session and get as many reps as you can. CT described that somewhere… Well I can’t go on doing leg curls forever shrug
Guess you can just alternate then… 1 Week squats+leg curls, other leg presses+SLDL… OR 1 week squats+widow+leg curls, other week squats+no widow+sldls.
[/quote]
Thank you, I will give that a go. I’ll work on getting my rest periods down too.
It’s a good thing you don’t charge for answering these questions
Shoulder question this time around good sir. So, I have been doing no pressing work for my shoulders these past few weeks. Reason being my shoulder day falls right after chest/tri’s and seeing as my shoulders are a strong point I wanted to allow my triceps more recovery time and it seems to be allowing my tri’s to grow faster.
Instead I have been focusing on just lateral raises, BB front raises, and cable work for the rear delts and that’s it. They seem to still be growing but do you think this will hurt my shoulder progress in the long run? I just got tired of using the heaviest DB’s for 15 reps, I ran out of room for progression, and I absolutely despise BB military and our smith machines suck balls.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
It’s a good thing you don’t charge for answering these questions
Shoulder question this time around good sir. So, I have been doing no pressing work for my shoulders these past few weeks. Reason being my shoulder day falls right after chest/tri’s and seeing as my shoulders are a strong point I wanted to allow my triceps more recovery time and it seems to be allowing my tri’s to grow faster.
Instead I have been focusing on just lateral raises, BB front raises, and cable work for the rear delts and that’s it. They seem to still be growing but do you think this will hurt my shoulder progress in the long run? I just got tired of using the heaviest DB’s for 15 reps, I ran out of room for progression, and I absolutely despise BB military and our smith machines suck balls.[/quote]
I’m no C_C and you’re a lot bigger and stronger than I am but I can tell you from experience that I have tried this (cutting out overhead pressing work) and all it resulted in for me was what I think was a shortened subscapularis and less impressive shoulder development. If anything it seems it would make more sense to just cut overhead pressing work down to 1 or 2 sets just to maintain strength on that movement/shoulder health since your goal currently seems to be more so better triceps growth/recovery than a true lack of progressionable (is that a word, lol?) overhead pressing exercises. Wonder what C_C’s take on this will be.
CC, I really cannot thank you enough. The effort you put into the post is really amazing and we all really appreciate your help. I’m gonna read through your post again and answer some of your questions and also post a new set-up that is CC-approved.
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
It’s a good thing you don’t charge for answering these questions
Shoulder question this time around good sir. So, I have been doing no pressing work for my shoulders these past few weeks. Reason being my shoulder day falls right after chest/tri’s and seeing as my shoulders are a strong point I wanted to allow my triceps more recovery time and it seems to be allowing my tri’s to grow faster.
Instead I have been focusing on just lateral raises, BB front raises, and cable work for the rear delts and that’s it. They seem to still be growing but do you think this will hurt my shoulder progress in the long run? I just got tired of using the heaviest DB’s for 15 reps, I ran out of room for progression, and I absolutely despise BB military and our smith machines suck balls.
I’m no C_C and you’re a lot bigger and stronger than I am but I can tell you from experience that I have tried this (cutting out overhead pressing work) and all it resulted in for me was what I think was a shortened subscapularis and less impressive shoulder development. If anything it seems it would make more sense to just cut overhead pressing work down to 1 or 2 sets just to maintain strength on that movement/shoulder health since your goal currently seems to be more so better triceps growth/recovery than a true lack of progressionable (is that a word, lol?) overhead pressing exercises. Wonder what C_C’s take on this will be.
Nice physique btw, bud.[/quote]
Thanks for the response anyways.
Do you know if you are arms/shoulders or chest dominant yet? The reason I’m not THAT concerned about cutting it out is that in any pressing movement my shoulders/arms take the brunt of the workload rather than my chest. So even if I cut out overhead pressing they would still get stimulation from incline pressing and whatnot. Fucking annoying though since getting some added chest size would do wonders for my physique.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
kingbeef323 wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
It’s a good thing you don’t charge for answering these questions
Shoulder question this time around good sir. So, I have been doing no pressing work for my shoulders these past few weeks. Reason being my shoulder day falls right after chest/tri’s and seeing as my shoulders are a strong point I wanted to allow my triceps more recovery time and it seems to be allowing my tri’s to grow faster.
Instead I have been focusing on just lateral raises, BB front raises, and cable work for the rear delts and that’s it. They seem to still be growing but do you think this will hurt my shoulder progress in the long run? I just got tired of using the heaviest DB’s for 15 reps, I ran out of room for progression, and I absolutely despise BB military and our smith machines suck balls.
I’m no C_C and you’re a lot bigger and stronger than I am but I can tell you from experience that I have tried this (cutting out overhead pressing work) and all it resulted in for me was what I think was a shortened subscapularis and less impressive shoulder development. If anything it seems it would make more sense to just cut overhead pressing work down to 1 or 2 sets just to maintain strength on that movement/shoulder health since your goal currently seems to be more so better triceps growth/recovery than a true lack of progressionable (is that a word, lol?) overhead pressing exercises. Wonder what C_C’s take on this will be.
Nice physique btw, bud.
Thanks for the response anyways.
Do you know if you are arms/shoulders or chest dominant yet? The reason I’m not THAT concerned about cutting it out is that in any pressing movement my shoulders/arms take the brunt of the workload rather than my chest. So even if I cut out overhead pressing they would still get stimulation from incline pressing and whatnot. Fucking annoying though since getting some added chest size would do wonders for my physique.
[/quote]
I would say that when I do chest movements, whether it’s flat/incline, barbell/dumbell I feel it mostly in my chest like I’m supposed to (due to biomechanics of long arms perhaps?). Thinking about it, it seems like people with relatively short arms would be more arm dominant on chest pressing movements than people with relatively long arms in terms of torque exerted against horizontal adduction but I digress. I understand what you mean when you say your delts get adequate stimulation from your chest pressing especially considering that fact that you are delt/tricep dominant on those movements. Now although your delts might still grow fine after eliminating overhead pressing, my main concern would be shoulder health due to eliminating the movement of upward rotation of the scapulae, which you don’t get from horizontal pressing. Maybe I’m over-thinking it, lol.
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
my main concern would be shoulder health due to eliminating the movement of upward rotation of the scapulae, which you don’t get from horizontal pressing. Maybe I’m over-thinking it, lol.[/quote]
Can’t say I even considered this, maybe you have a point haha.
Well son of a bitch…CC CAN I GET A SECOND OPINION PLEAZOR?!
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
It’s a good thing you don’t charge for answering these questions
Shoulder question this time around good sir. So, I have been doing no pressing work for my shoulders these past few weeks. Reason being my shoulder day falls right after chest/tri’s and seeing as my shoulders are a strong point I wanted to allow my triceps more recovery time and it seems to be allowing my tri’s to grow faster.
Instead I have been focusing on just lateral raises, BB front raises, and cable work for the rear delts and that’s it. They seem to still be growing but do you think this will hurt my shoulder progress in the long run? I just got tired of using the heaviest DB’s for 15 reps, I ran out of room for progression, and I absolutely despise BB military and our smith machines suck balls.[/quote]
Phil Hernon hated the overhead press and used laterals instead… Then again, Phil Hernon is not exactly a genetic welterweight.
This is purely anecdotal, but anyway:
I find that if I stop doing overhead work and come back to it much later, it seems to bother my shoulders. It doesn’t bother them if I do it regularly though.
Also, my pressing strength overall goes up with my overhead work (I don’t go down below the chin though, on no OH exercise) and often stalls if I stop OH pressing…
Until fairly recently, I’ve always relied on OH pressing to get my delts big… Laterals were more of an afterthought, but I got them to work better now by turning them into a semi-DB-upright row with scapular retraction and all that jazz.
Also, you can do standing DB OHP… Clean (or whatever) the bells up and then you get to choose whether you want to do them with elbows more tucked or flared… I do them fully flared now, so if it were a bar I was using, it’d travel “through” my head. I don’t lock these out as that feels odd on the shoulders, I go from maybe ear level or so to 2/3’s up.
You’ll have to go lighter on those (but imo not by all that much as long as you can get the bells up) and use them for maintenance work. Can be done after chest or so just fine.
Ok, to your question… Hmmm. As I mentioned before, you may have some trouble getting back into the groove once you get back to OH work… But size-wise at least, you shouldn’t have much trouble… Or so I hope.
You use the same exercises both cycles of the week… If you were using a double rotation, we could make it so that one day was heavy tri day (CGP, perhaps with another extension) followed by light shoulder day (laterals), while the other day could be heavy delt day (ohp variant + laterals) followed by light tri day (just some elbow friendly extension perhaps plus pushdowns or some such crap).
Best of both worlds basically…
Do you have a rack where you can do overhead pressing off the pins? That might work nicely. From a dead stop each rep, like dead stop extensions. Could start at a comfortable height, depending on your limb length maybe eye level or so… That would also hit your tris nicely I think.
I find that if I stop doing overhead work and come back to it much later, it seems to bother my shoulders. It doesn’t bother them if I do it regularly though.
[/quote]
Yup, I’ve noticed this too, this is what I was getting at. Fairly sure it’s the result of a shortened subscapularis.
[quote]
[quote]. I paired biceps with the triceps though[/quote] Sure you want yet another lift on upper body days? That time would be better spent doing inverted rows, face pulls or whatever, imo. [quote], added in cleans and snatches, and maybe some extra ham work. [/quote] What do you want to do, get good at deadlifting or get good (i suppose) at cleaning and then throw some deadlifts in for the hell of it afterwards?