CARBS: Not as Bad as Many Think When it Comes to Fat Loss

system · May 11, 2010, 3:05pm

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
There’s more to anabolic hormones than testosterone. There’s IGF-1, insulin, growth hormone, and thyroid to some extent.

Anyway. Nutrition is one aspect of bodybuilding where you can’t copy what the top bodybuilders are doing simply because of the anabolics they use: they change their basic physiology and their body can thus use more of the ingested nutrients to build muscle.

If an enhanced bodybuilder can build his ‘‘house’’ at a rate of 400 bricks per day and he gives the workers 400 bricks, the house will be built at an optimum rate.

If a natural bodybuilder can build his ‘‘house’’ at a rate of 250 bricks per day because he has fewer workers (anabolic hormones) then sending 400 bricks to the yard will be too much for what his crew can build on a daily basis.

Same thing goes for calories… especially when comparing yourself to a bodybuilder using growth hormone and insulin.

Some training methods and ideas from top bodybuilders can be useful with your own training, but the nutrition aspect has to be seen from a different angle.[/quote]

Good point. Definitely something I’ve known but I guess have forgotten to some extent, also the main guy(s) I hear talking about 2g/lb are on steroids/deal with mostly steroid users.

I knew about the other hormones involved as well, I guess I was just kind of lumping them together (i.e “if my test is low my other anabolic hormones probably are”) but that’s probably not entirely true.

Needmassquick · May 11, 2010, 4:22pm

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
I have to get past the first page, but this is what I’ve been saying too. Mainly that some carbs would be OK and I never saw any better results when keeping them very low and high fats. Also I think there is some merit to reducing 6-7 meals/day to 4-5/day when cutting to reduce the amount of time insulin levels are elevated. [/quote]

I agree 100%[/quote]

What is your typical recommendation at this point for fat intake, whatever’s necessary to make up the rest of calories you feel the person needs? I’ve noticed most guys who like moderate/higher carbs tend to keep fat around 60-80g. To start my cut I’m planning on decreasing weekly by 3450 calories, 218g fat, 242.5g carbs, 130g protein so I’m actually decreasing fats more to begin than carbs (calories wise anyway). [/quote]

BTW, never decrease protein during a cutting phase. If anything they need to be increased to prevent catabolism.[/quote]

That’s exactly what I would/do think as well but the thing is I’m starting with 1.8g/lb of bodyweight as it is right now, so given that would you still keep protein the same? In general, and what most people do it seems, is keep it the same or even increase protein during a cut. I would do this but like I said I’m already starting pretty high, so my plan was to have my medium and low carbs day stay the same, but decrease my protein to 1.5g/lb on my 2 high days when carbs are brought up to about 2.3g/lb (carbs are at about 0.5g/lb on low days and 1g/lb on medium days by the way). What do you think?
[/quote]

Keep protein the same. You kinda shot yourself in the foot by consuming too much during your mass gaining phase. Now if you cut some out, while you are on a caloric deficit, your body will likely be in a catabolic state because it adjusted to a daily intake of 1.8g of protein per pound.[/quote]

If decreasing protein like this for 1-2 days is a problem why do you have people add in low protein days 1-2 days per week which, I believe, are even lower than the “lower” levels mentioned above?

[Mod Note: Please do not post under multiple user names.]

Christian_Thibaudeau · May 11, 2010, 4:05pm

[quote]Needmassquick wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
I have to get past the first page, but this is what I’ve been saying too. Mainly that some carbs would be OK and I never saw any better results when keeping them very low and high fats. Also I think there is some merit to reducing 6-7 meals/day to 4-5/day when cutting to reduce the amount of time insulin levels are elevated. [/quote]

I agree 100%[/quote]

What is your typical recommendation at this point for fat intake, whatever’s necessary to make up the rest of calories you feel the person needs? I’ve noticed most guys who like moderate/higher carbs tend to keep fat around 60-80g. To start my cut I’m planning on decreasing weekly by 3450 calories, 218g fat, 242.5g carbs, 130g protein so I’m actually decreasing fats more to begin than carbs (calories wise anyway). [/quote]

BTW, never decrease protein during a cutting phase. If anything they need to be increased to prevent catabolism.[/quote]

That’s exactly what I would/do think as well but the thing is I’m starting with 1.8g/lb of bodyweight as it is right now, so given that would you still keep protein the same? In general, and what most people do it seems, is keep it the same or even increase protein during a cut. I would do this but like I said I’m already starting pretty high, so my plan was to have my medium and low carbs day stay the same, but decrease my protein to 1.5g/lb on my 2 high days when carbs are brought up to about 2.3g/lb (carbs are at about 0.5g/lb on low days and 1g/lb on medium days by the way). What do you think?
[/quote]

Keep protein the same. You kinda shot yourself in the foot by consuming too much during your mass gaining phase. Now if you cut some out, while you are on a caloric deficit, your body will likely be in a catabolic state because it adjusted to a daily intake of 1.8g of protein per pound.[/quote]

If decreasing protein like this for 1-2 days is a problem why do you have people add in low protein days 1-2 days per week which, I believe, are even lower than the “lower” levels mentioned above?[/quote]

I will admit that I didn’t read the whole thing. I only read that you wanted to decrease protein by 130g.

I do recommend ONE day of low protein intake per week, NOT for the purpose of reducing calories but to prevent your body from adjusting from a constantly elevated protein intake. Sadly your body is already adjusted to a high protein intake.

Nima · May 11, 2010, 8:05pm

Thibs,

I’m following your refined physique transformation guidelines right now and sitting at around 20% bodyfat. since my daily carb intake is limited to 30g, for the preworkout carbs are you suggesting an additional 30grams from fruit/FINiBARs or am i not allowed to go over the 30g daily total? Even without any preworkout carbs 30g of total carbs a day is tough to stay under.

Thanks!

gabex · May 11, 2010, 11:24pm

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Kerley wrote:

i think there was a typo in your post where you said 130g of protein per day, you must eat more protein than that?[/quote]

That’s not my current intake, that’s my weekly decrease.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Keep protein the same. You kinda shot yourself in the foot by consuming too much during your mass gaining phase. Now if you cut some out, while you are on a caloric deficit, your body will likely be in a catabolic state because it adjusted to a daily intake of 1.8g of protein per pound.[/quote]

yea I thought about that, I guess I figured higher protein during the gaining phase would help me stay leaner. I definitely can’t say it was the only factor, as I’ve had protein higher than this and still just got fat in the past, but this has been my most successful “mass gaining phase” after my beginning gains years ago. Also just to get more calories in, I mean right now my carbs are close to 300g with fat at 100-110g and protein at 350+g, I had protein high to make up more calories because I was concerned more carbs/fat would cause more fat gains. I’ll probably try higher carbs in the future though as I’ve seen no more fat gain from this compared to high fat/low carbs.

So do you (and would you recommend to) bring protein down once the cut is over and carbs are increased again? At this point it’s of course too late, but for the future.

Thanks for the input[/quote]

Mistake no.1 assuming that simply consuming more calories will lead to more growth. YES increasing nutrients intake will, to some extent, facilitate gains… up to a point. Your body has a limited capacity to build muscle tissue. This limit is physiological and mostly a factor of your anabolic and catabolic hormone levels. If you are already consuming enough nutrients to fuel your body’s maximum rate of growth, all the added ‘‘calories’’ will be stored as fat (or as glycogen).

So, someone who is not eating to fulfill his body’s needs when it comes to the maximal rate of muscle growth will indeed grow more by adding more nutrients and calories to his diet.

But when you reach the ceiling of how much nutrients you can use to build muscle, you’ll simply store the mas fat.

Yes, in the future I recommend a lower protein intake 1.25 to 1.5g per pound when in a mass gaining phase (only steroid users need, and benefit, from more than that). But you have to do this gradually or your body will be catabolic for a while.[/quote]

Regarding point #2, the rest of the additional calories must come from carbs and fat. Would you say it is best to split these macros evenly? Or make sure you get enough EFA’s and the rest carbs? Or is it more of an individual/trial and error process?

HvRv · May 12, 2010, 5:43am

Reading trough this thread made me think about carbs in whole different way, and made me experiment more and more with them. As title says they aint so bad after all ;).

jonmb11 · May 12, 2010, 6:28am

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Needmassquick wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
I have to get past the first page, but this is what I’ve been saying too. Mainly that some carbs would be OK and I never saw any better results when keeping them very low and high fats. Also I think there is some merit to reducing 6-7 meals/day to 4-5/day when cutting to reduce the amount of time insulin levels are elevated. [/quote]

I agree 100%[/quote]

What is your typical recommendation at this point for fat intake, whatever’s necessary to make up the rest of calories you feel the person needs? I’ve noticed most guys who like moderate/higher carbs tend to keep fat around 60-80g. To start my cut I’m planning on decreasing weekly by 3450 calories, 218g fat, 242.5g carbs, 130g protein so I’m actually decreasing fats more to begin than carbs (calories wise anyway). [/quote]

BTW, never decrease protein during a cutting phase. If anything they need to be increased to prevent catabolism.[/quote]

That’s exactly what I would/do think as well but the thing is I’m starting with 1.8g/lb of bodyweight as it is right now, so given that would you still keep protein the same? In general, and what most people do it seems, is keep it the same or even increase protein during a cut. I would do this but like I said I’m already starting pretty high, so my plan was to have my medium and low carbs day stay the same, but decrease my protein to 1.5g/lb on my 2 high days when carbs are brought up to about 2.3g/lb (carbs are at about 0.5g/lb on low days and 1g/lb on medium days by the way). What do you think?
[/quote]

Keep protein the same. You kinda shot yourself in the foot by consuming too much during your mass gaining phase. Now if you cut some out, while you are on a caloric deficit, your body will likely be in a catabolic state because it adjusted to a daily intake of 1.8g of protein per pound.[/quote]

If decreasing protein like this for 1-2 days is a problem why do you have people add in low protein days 1-2 days per week which, I believe, are even lower than the “lower” levels mentioned above?[/quote]

I will admit that I didn’t read the whole thing. I only read that you wanted to decrease protein by 130g.

I do recommend ONE day of low protein intake per week, NOT for the purpose of reducing calories but to prevent your body from adjusting from a constantly elevated protein intake. Sadly your body is already adjusted to a high protein intake.[/quote]

CT, how long does it take for someone to adjust to a high protein intake if not using a low protein day? I dieted for 6 weeks without any low protein days and haven’t used a low protein day for a total of about 8 weeks. Do you think my body has already adjusted to a high protein intake and I should just keep leaving out the low protein days to risk catabolism or should I just start using low protein days again right away?

Thanks

Sabotage · May 12, 2010, 5:02pm

my personal theory is this your body needs protein regardless minimum for a “growing man” is 30 grams at one. but i go by “the more the merrier” just make sure you get some healthy fats in with it to stimulate absorption.
Fats and Carbs are the ones that we all need to learn how to manipulate. CT and Poliquin have their differences in intaking carbs pre-intra-post workout. Personally I go by keeping my protein constant 1grm per 1 lb of body weight or more. I support high fat diets like anabolic diet by DiPasquale and definitely support CT approach to havin little carbs in am and pre and intra workout. Because guess what???-as it turns out Glutamine aqnd glycine in higher doses post workout can fill in your glucogen stores just as well as carbs do

dayne_lathrop · May 12, 2010, 8:34pm

Coach,

A few weeks ago i had mentioned that i was using fenuplex/insulinomics for 3 weeks. i have come into a bit more funds since then so i am able to alot more of these pretty soon since it worked really well:)

you mentioned to me only to use fenuplex and insulinomics when you have a meal containing a significant amount of carbs. i was reading back when you had first started it though, and you said you took these products at every meal.

i was wondering if you had made this specific suggestion to let the product last me longer (since i mentioned i didnt have alot of it), or will it really not help me get better results if i took the products every time i ate, regardless if there are carbs or not?

Thanks for the help.

The_Mighty_Stu · May 12, 2010, 11:41pm

[quote]Sabotage wrote:
my personal theory is this your body needs protein regardless minimum for a “growing man” is 30 grams at one. but i go by “the more the merrier” just make sure you get some healthy fats in with it to stimulate absorption.
Fats and Carbs are the ones that we all need to learn how to manipulate.

CT and Poliquin have their differences in intaking carbs pre-intra-post workout. Personally I go by keeping my protein constant 1grm per 1 lb of body weight or more. I support high fat diets like anabolic diet by DiPasquale and definitely support CT approach to havin little carbs in am and pre and intra workout.

Because guess what???-as it turns out Glutamine aqnd glycine in higher doses post workout can fill in your glucogen stores just as well as carbs do [/quote]

Uh… fat doesn’t “stimulate absorption”. It slows digestion, which can sometimes prolong the absorption process (ie. P+F feeding before bed), sometimes being a good thing, and sometimes being,… well, not what you may want at the moment.

Also,… The last time I checked (and it’s been a while because I stopped wasting my money on glutamine years ago), although it is usually the first amino acid to be deconstructed during a diet in order to create glucose, it can’t be stored as muscle glycogen.

S

Sabotage · May 13, 2010, 8:13pm

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]Sabotage wrote:
my personal theory is this your body needs protein regardless minimum for a “growing man” is 30 grams at one. but i go by “the more the merrier” just make sure you get some healthy fats in with it to stimulate absorption.
Fats and Carbs are the ones that we all need to learn how to manipulate.

CT and Poliquin have their differences in intaking carbs pre-intra-post workout. Personally I go by keeping my protein constant 1grm per 1 lb of body weight or more. I support high fat diets like anabolic diet by DiPasquale and definitely support CT approach to havin little carbs in am and pre and intra workout.

Because guess what???-as it turns out Glutamine aqnd glycine in higher doses post workout can fill in your glucogen stores just as well as carbs do [/quote]

Uh… fat doesn’t “stimulate absorption”. It slows digestion, which can sometimes prolong the absorption process (ie. P+F feeding before bed), sometimes being a good thing, and sometimes being,… well, not what you may want at the moment.

Also,… The last time I checked (and it’s been a while because I stopped wasting my money on glutamine years ago), although it is usually the first amino acid to be deconstructed during a diet in order to create glucose, it can’t be stored as muscle glycogen.

S[/quote]

Supplementing with glutamine enhances muscle glycogen synthesis.

by Paul Cribb, B.H.Sci HMS

Muscle glycogen is the storage form carbohydrate and the primary fuel of intense exercise. For bodybuilders, glycogen-full muscles mean a greater work capacity, faster recovery and muscle growth. Many bodybuilders restrict their carbohydrate intake in an effort to remain lean, this can create low muscle glycogen levels that limit recovery and the ability to train intensely.

This study demonstrated that taking glutamine straight after training stimulates glycogen synthesis in muscles and appears just as effective at restoring glycogen levels as a high-dose of carbohydrates.

The participants in this study completed three glycogen-depleting weight training sessions. After each session they received one of three different drinks (by a systemic rotation), a carbohydrate solution (61-grams), a glutamine solution (8-grams), or a combination of both.

The muscle biopsy results revealed that 8 grams of glutamine was as effective as 61-grams of glucose for restoring muscle glycogen levels, while the combination of glucose and glutamine restored whole body glycogen levels more effectively than either supplement taken separately.

These findings are fantastic for competitive bodybuilders, wrestlers, and other athletes that may restrict carbohydrate intake yet require high muscle glycogen levels for optimal performance. These results also have important implications for those that follow a low-carb diet.

Taking an 8-gram serving of glutamine after exercise will restore muscle glycogen levels as effectively as a high dose of glucose. This means bodybuilders and other athletes can replenish vital muscle glycogen levels with minimal amounts of carbohydrates! Pre-contest bodybuilders can use glutamine in their carb loading phase to enhance muscle glycogen accumulation.

Bodybuilders and other strength athletes should aim for rapid replenishment of muscle glycogen stores straight after exercise. By adding glutamine to your post-workout meals you will enhance the replenishment of vital muscle glycogen and whole body energy stores.

This research demonstrates more important benefits of glutamine supplementation for athletes. Glutamine remains one of the most underrated, research-proven performance enhancing supplements an athlete can use.

J.Appl.Physiol.86;6:1770-1777, 1999.

Sabotage · May 13, 2010, 8:33pm

as for fats it is part of every cell membrane in the body. It helps transport nutrients and metabolites across cell membranes.Your body uses fat to make a variety of other building blocks needed for everything from hormones to immune function.

Protein, fat, oil, cooked foods stimulate digestion and absorption in the stomach and small intestine. and i believe Bioperin was the one responsible for optimal digestion and absorption of ALL nutrients.

AdamLaw · May 23, 2010, 2:48am

[quote]Sabotage wrote: