CARBS: Not as Bad as Many Think When it Comes to Fat Loss

Training
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I always wince a bit when I see people try to play coach vs coach on training forums. I think it’s important to keep in mind that there will always be different approaches that will work for different people. Issues invariably will arise when people start taking certain coach’s words as the ONLY way, and thereby they may never try a varying method that may have yielded better gains for them. I was all about post-workout carbs for years. Even after my bodybuilding contest in May 09, I thought this was the perfect protocol for me.

Then, the following Fall, I tried Christian’s approach, and focused more on pre-workout supplementation. You know what? I got better results off season, and better results for my next show (this is after almost 17 years of training!) If I was narrow minded, I never would have deviated from what had worked for me, and instead found something that worked even better.

S

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Stu, I’m definetly also not narrow-minded; and I don’t try to start any “coach vs. coach” thing. I just wanted to know what you guys think about this different approach by coach Poliquin. I am going to try ingesting those carbs pre-workout, because post-W.O. was probably not good for me.
Did you use this protocol also for your pre-contest diet or just for the mass phase?

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I wasn’t throwing a dig at you, I’ve just seen a lot of people try to get Christian to dish on Poliquin, and it’s just ridiculous -lol.

And yes, I kept the full protocol during my prep, and I think the evident muscle thickness in this year’s pics vs last year’s speaks volumes.

S

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Coach T/Stu

The second version of the Anaconda version has the majority of it’s carbs during the workout. (As the SWF is mixed in with all the Anaconda goodies) Does this approach have significant advantages/dis-advantages over the first protocol, where the FiniBars are eaten 20 minutes pre workout?
I’m just musing about spiking insulin BEFORE the work-out and the difference BEFORE and DURING.
Am currently carb cycling using the Protocol (FiniBars + workout fuel, depending on if its a high, med or low day)
Have put a steady 15-17lbs on in 9 months, and can still see at least the top 2 rows of my abs. Bravo Biotest. It’s a revolution!!

moogweasel

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[quote]Mishurre wrote:
Stu, I’m definetly also not narrow-minded; and I don’t try to start any “coach vs. coach” thing. I just wanted to know what you guys think about this different approach by coach Poliquin. I am going to try ingesting those carbs pre-workout, because post-W.O. was probably not good for me.
Did you use this protocol also for your pre-contest diet or just for the mass phase?[/quote]

“Uh coach I know what you do works but what do you think of what this guy says, that is the complete opposite”

What kind of response did you think you were gonna get. BTW this is a dig at you. You’re a dope. Go to Coach P’s site and ask him about Coach Thib’s approach and see the response you get.

Also, carbs are good.

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Haha you’re damn right, TS. I’m sorry for that…

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[quote]Mishurre wrote:
Haha you’re damn right, TS. I’m sorry for that…[/quote]

Good attitude to have. Live and learn.

Coach Thibs and other authors on this site have posted great stuff on carb cycling and how carbs fit into para-workout nutrition. Here are a few great examples:

Enjoy.

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I want to say that I’ve been all over the carbs spectrum during my career. My point of view evolved from my personal experience, studies and work with clients.

I started out as a die hard ‘‘no carbs’’ advocate (heck for 18 months I lived on less than 50g of carbs per day… not even one carb up). That’s because I always was a fat guy and the first time I was able to get lean was when I went low carbs.

Turns out that I was actually ingesting around 1600 calories per day as I was also low fat… not surprising that I lost a lot of fat on such a regimen… but I also go weaker.

Then, I decided to experiment with post-workout carbs. It worked, I gained more size then when no-carbing. I would basically have 100-150g of carbs post-workout with 50g of protein. I progressed and thus believed that POST workout carbs where ideal. In retrospect it works, it’s better than not having anything, but is it optimal?

I worked with a few bodybuilders who responded very badly to low carbs diets… as in they actually gained some fat and lost muscle! When I introduced carbs back in their diet, they started to progress again. That’s when I realized that carbs where not bad for everybody. And that’s when I started to look into carbs cycling.

When I started working on building the IBB program Tim wanted me to try PRE-workout carbs. I gave it a shot, not convinced AT ALL that it would work (since I had results from post-workout carbs I didn’t see any reason for changing that). To my surprise it did give me A LOT better results when it comes to strength and size gains then when using my old approach.

What I am doing now might even change in the future, who knows? For now it’s the best approach that I’ve tried. If something better comes along, great! All I want is to find the best way to build muscle and grow stronger, even if that means changing my beliefs.

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[quote]ADvanced TS wrote:

[quote]Mishurre wrote:
Haha you’re damn right, TS. I’m sorry for that…[/quote]

Good attitude to have. Live and learn.

Coach Thibs and other authors on this site have posted great stuff on carb cycling and how carbs fit into para-workout nutrition. Here are a few great examples:

Enjoy.

[/quote]
Hahah, all the day today I’m reading about carb cycling. I read the first two articles you posted, I especially like Thib’s one, and now I think that carb-cycling seems the best for me (and probably for most people, of course, depending on one’s carb tolerance the carb amounts must vary).

Definetly gonna give it a shot, plus putting carbs only in the morning and pre-workout. Thanks for the last link, it’s gonna give me some more info;) Dr. Clay is just awesome guy.

M.

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I’m so glad I know someone who’s open to new ideas and shares them with us. Sometimes I don’t understand why people have respect for you, because I just keep respecting you more and more.

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[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
I want to say that I’ve been all over the carbs spectrum during my career. My point of view evolved from my personal experience, studies and work with clients.

I started out as a die hard ‘‘no carbs’’ advocate (heck for 18 months I lived on less than 50g of carbs per day… not even one carb up). That’s because I always was a fat guy and the first time I was able to get lean was when I went low carbs.

Turns out that I was actually ingesting around 1600 calories per day as I was also low fat… not surprising that I lost a lot of fat on such a regimen… but I also go weaker.

Then, I decided to experiment with post-workout carbs. It worked, I gained more size then when no-carbing. I would basically have 100-150g of carbs post-workout with 50g of protein. I progressed and thus believed that POST workout carbs where ideal. In retrospect it works, it’s better than not having anything, but is it optimal?

I worked with a few bodybuilders who responded very badly to low carbs diets… as in they actually gained some fat and lost muscle! When I introduced carbs back in their diet, they started to progress again. That’s when I realized that carbs where not bad for everybody. And that’s when I started to look into carbs cycling.

When I started working on building the IBB program Tim wanted me to try PRE-workout carbs. I gave it a shot, not convinced AT ALL that it would work (since I had results from post-workout carbs I didn’t see any reason for changing that). To my surprise it did give me A LOT better results when it comes to strength and size gains then when using my old approach.

What I am doing now might even change in the future, who knows? For now it’s the best approach that I’ve tried. If something better comes along, great! All I want is to find the best way to build muscle and grow stronger, even if that means changing my beliefs.[/quote]

So what kind of figures would you be looking at for the daily aggregate carb intake of your carb tolerant clients?

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CT or Stu–

I’ve been leaning out for a couple of months now (down 20 lbs. (255 lbs. down to 235 lbs.) with ZERO strength loss…I’ve actually gained some in some lifts). I’ve been following the I,BB program (with only very minor exercise substitutions), along with a variation of the Anaconda protocol (I’ve been varying the FINiBARs according to the targeted carb approach I’m using for that day). I have to say that this is the first time I’ve EVER not lost strength, and I’m keeping pretty much all of my lean mass, which I’ve typically lost quite a bit with in the past when dieting hard.

I’m currently sitting at sub 6% (had a trainer friend of mine with 10 years exerience do a couple of caliper test along the way).

My question is, if it can be anwered with this very basic informaiton I’v provided, is…

When or should I completely drop the FINiBARs from the protocol. I have a deadline in just over 5 weeks that I’m trying to meet, and am wondering in your exerience, if it would be advantageous to drop the FINiBARs a couple weeks out form the deadline, to ensure my low carb approach heading into the deadline will aid in losing the last little bit of fat I’m still carrying (subscap, lower back, and glutes)

My training is super intense, lifting hard 6 days per week (curruently doing the leg spec phase, with a short beach wokout on Thursay, as well as doing some sort of energy systems work immediately after eacj weight workout.

The rest of my diet is spot on outside of the protocol…275-325 grams of protein, 30-36% of my cals come from fat, and eating veggies at all meals, and about 30 grams of fruit for breakfast.

I’m thinking to drop the FINiBARs abot 10-14 days out from my deadline to both drop my caloric intake overall, as well as give by body a chance to adapt to very mimimal carbs (50 or so per day all from veggies)

I’m a lot like you CT. I can add both fat and muscle easily,fast twich ny nature and I once weighed over 300 lbs. while playing major college football and then 5 seasons in the NFL. So, I know carbs aren’t “dangerous”, just that I do need to watch my intake or I’ll gain fat back rather easily.

If either youself or Stu would be so kind and let me know your exeriences with this type of situation, it would a great help.
Thanks so much. I’ve learned a TON of new training stratagies from you. You tryly are one of the ones who’s in this for passion. Thank you so much

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[quote]Marther wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
I want to say that I’ve been all over the carbs spectrum during my career. My point of view evolved from my personal experience, studies and work with clients.

I started out as a die hard ‘‘no carbs’’ advocate (heck for 18 months I lived on less than 50g of carbs per day… not even one carb up). That’s because I always was a fat guy and the first time I was able to get lean was when I went low carbs.

Turns out that I was actually ingesting around 1600 calories per day as I was also low fat… not surprising that I lost a lot of fat on such a regimen… but I also go weaker.

Then, I decided to experiment with post-workout carbs. It worked, I gained more size then when no-carbing. I would basically have 100-150g of carbs post-workout with 50g of protein. I progressed and thus believed that POST workout carbs where ideal. In retrospect it works, it’s better than not having anything, but is it optimal?

I worked with a few bodybuilders who responded very badly to low carbs diets… as in they actually gained some fat and lost muscle! When I introduced carbs back in their diet, they started to progress again. That’s when I realized that carbs where not bad for everybody. And that’s when I started to look into carbs cycling.

When I started working on building the IBB program Tim wanted me to try PRE-workout carbs. I gave it a shot, not convinced AT ALL that it would work (since I had results from post-workout carbs I didn’t see any reason for changing that). To my surprise it did give me A LOT better results when it comes to strength and size gains then when using my old approach.

What I am doing now might even change in the future, who knows? For now it’s the best approach that I’ve tried. If something better comes along, great! All I want is to find the best way to build muscle and grow stronger, even if that means changing my beliefs.[/quote]

So what kind of figures would you be looking at for the daily aggregate carb intake of your carb tolerant clients?
[/quote]

I find that this is a trial and error thing. It also depends on the goal of the individual.

I normally start them with roughly 50-100g pre-workout, depending on which protocol they use and also have them start with 50-75g at breakfast. And I go from there. Each week I evaluate how his body is responding. If he is losing weight too fast (during a fat loss phase) or not adding any fat (during a muscle gain phase) I will bump up carbs a bit. I start by only adding carbs on the two occasions mentionned and if I reach a point where the intake is ‘‘too high to be increased again’’ at those two occasions I will start adding a third carb meal roughly 1 hour post-workout.

When the guy’s fat loss halts (during a fat loss phase) or he starts to gain too much fat (muscle gain phase), I take carbs down just a bit or include a few low carb days during the week.

The highest I’ve been with a client recently is 800g of carbs per day (200g of which pre-and-during-workout) during a muscle growth phase, but the guy is a national level bodybuilder who at the time was 265 on 5’9’’ and still fairly lean.

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SYNERGY93- If you’re actually at 6% or less, and haven’t had any loss of strength, I don’t see why you would even want to drop any more carbs, at least not on a daily basis. A quote I got from Dr. Klemzewski is to keep as many carbs as you can, while still making progress towards your goal (this is the way to retain the most LBM while cutting).

I truly think the use of the FINiBARs in my prep has been very integral in keeping my weight sessions productive (and key in my muscle retention while dieting). Sure, there were some days where my only carbs were the 1 or 2 bars before my workout (on my ‘low’ days. My medium/baseline and high days always had 3).

One bar has about 40g of carbs, so even if you add in a few ‘incidentals’ from your other meals (P+F make up), you’re still going to be able 50g for the day, which to me, constitutes almost-keto, just what you want on those really low days towards the end of a cyclical prep.

Also, if your veggies are typical green/fibrous selections, most BBers don’t really count them into their daily numbers, which would only allow you to keep one bar (or even some Surge if you prefer) in your pre-workout regimen, and hopefully hold onto more size in the process.

Again, I’m curious why you feel the need to drop carbs further if you’ve been making steady progress.

S

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Stu,

Thank you for your reply. I apppreciate your time.

While I have been making steady progress in the last 60 days, I’m anticipating a slow down in my fat loss as I near the end over the next 5 weeks. I’m utilizing a carb and calorie cycle, and have been modestly reducing each as time goes on.

I’ve dieted down to sub 4% a couple of times in the past, and each time, I had to reach an almost-keto state to lose the last 1-1.5%. In the past, I used Surge Workout Fuel and Recovery as my main source of carbs, not only for the workout, but for the the day as well. I’ve typically had to drop the Recovery first, then the workout fuel, all together in the last 3 weeks or so, to hit the very low body fat percentage levels. It’s worked, but as you know, the end of the cut is pretty brutal. This is the first time I’ve used the Finibars (and the Anaconda protocol), so I was just curious if it would be any different using the FINiBARs versus the workout fuel and recovery.

I don’t really have any wiggle room to reduce my overall cals anywhere else in my daily diet, so I thought dropping the bars would be about the only place I could drop out of my overall intake. I’m hopeful the Ananconda and MAG-10 will be enough to maintain solid workouts and provide the necessary nutrients to retain the LBM I currently have at the end of the cut.

Plus, I remember CT saying something about dropping the FINiBARs at some point near the end, but I could be wrong.

This has been the “easiest” cut I’ve done to date, and am 100% convinced it’s due to the Anaconda Protocol…simply amazing stuff.

Thanks again for you input.

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Thib, what time of day do you use higher GI foods, if you were to use them with a client? And while I’m at it, what is that reason? I assume it has to do with insulin. For post-WO I assume you’d say it is a no-no due to the recent post-WO carb recommendations, and a pre-workout meal could cause an insulin crash before you even lift. Maybe in the morning?

GI foods I’m talking about: cereals (cheerios, fiber one, all bran, etc), cornmeal, pasta, bananas, stuff like that.

I hardly ever see top BB pros eat like that (well, depending of course). They usually stick to the lower GI stuff… sweet potatoes, oats, etc.

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[quote]synergy93 wrote:
Stu,

Thank you for your reply. I apppreciate your time.

While I have been making steady progress in the last 60 days, I’m anticipating a slow down in my fat loss as I near the end over the next 5 weeks. I’m utilizing a carb and calorie cycle, and have been modestly reducing each as time goes on.

I’ve dieted down to sub 4% a couple of times in the past, and each time, I had to reach an almost-keto state to lose the last 1-1.5%. In the past, I used Surge Workout Fuel and Recovery as my main source of carbs, not only for the workout, but for the the day as well. I’ve typically had to drop the Recovery first, then the workout fuel, all together in the last 3 weeks or so, to hit the very low body fat percentage levels. It’s worked, but as you know, the end of the cut is pretty brutal. This is the first time I’ve used the Finibars (and the Anaconda protocol), so I was just curious if it would be any different using the FINiBARs versus the workout fuel and recovery.

I don’t really have any wiggle room to reduce my overall cals anywhere else in my daily diet, so I thought dropping the bars would be about the only place I could drop out of my overall intake. I’m hopeful the Ananconda and MAG-10 will be enough to maintain solid workouts and provide the necessary nutrients to retain the LBM I currently have at the end of the cut.

Plus, I remember CT saying something about dropping the FINiBARs at some point near the end, but I could be wrong.

This has been the “easiest” cut I’ve done to date, and am 100% convinced it’s due to the Anaconda Protocol…simply amazing stuff.

Thanks again for you input. [/quote]

I think I might have mentioned this is another thread, but when I needed to bring my cals down 100 each day, but still wanted the carbs pre workout, I actually started substituting the old SWF (1 scoop) for one of the FINiBARs. The difference in cals was what I needed, but it still let me keep the carbs at the level I needed. It’s pretty cool to see the new suggested protocol making use of the same approach when the goal is more fat reduction or recomposition.

S

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[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
SYNERGY93- If you’re actually at 6% or less, and haven’t had any loss of strength, I don’t see why you would even want to drop any more carbs, at least not on a daily basis. A quote I got from Dr. Klemzewski is to keep as many carbs as you can, while still making progress towards your goal (this is the way to retain the most LBM while cutting).

I truly think the use of the FINiBARs in my prep has been very integral in keeping my weight sessions productive (and key in my muscle retention while dieting). Sure, there were some days where my only carbs were the 1 or 2 bars before my workout (on my ‘low’ days. My medium/baseline and high days always had 3).

One bar has about 40g of carbs, so even if you add in a few ‘incidentals’ from your other meals (P+F make up), you’re still going to be able 50g for the day, which to me, constitutes almost-keto, just what you want on those really low days towards the end of a cyclical prep.

Also, if your veggies are typical green/fibrous selections, most BBers don’t really count them into their daily numbers, which would only allow you to keep one bar (or even some Surge if you prefer) in your pre-workout regimen, and hopefully hold onto more size in the process.

Again, I’m curious why you feel the need to drop carbs further if you’ve been making steady progress.

S[/quote]

hey stu
i just took the plunge and purchased Anaconda v2 and i was curious if i should use finibars while on the protocol seeing how i’m trying to drop about 15 pounds. any suggestions?
if so how would you incorporate it into your daily diet.

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It all comes down to your daily numbers. I diet in a cyclical manner, so some days I needed more carbs than others. I definitely felt better overall by having the carb-heavy feeding before my training, so if at all possible, from my personal experience, I would say to definitely keep them if you can (if they meet your requirements for the day of course). Remember, I was losing weight (fat) while keeping the 3 finibars 95% of the time. It was only at the end of the prep that I started to scale back a bit (my average carb intake was 225g a day, and 300+ on my high days… but I still kept a caloric deficit!)

S

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Stu,

Or anyone who is willing to help someone not able to afford Biotest supplements.
I am wondering about other possible carb sources to take advantage of Christian’s insight into pre-workout carb and protein dosing.

Currently i have been doing 50g Carb from frozen then thawed bananas blended with about 35-40g whey protein sipped from about -45 until -10 for my workout.

Other options that seem popular are:
50g Oats 50g Whey before a workout
Whey and a simple carb like glucose/maltodextrin within about 20-15 mins pre training.

I am wondering if anyone could give me any suggestions on this? I would really appreciate it.

Alex