[quote]ty_ty13 wrote:
where are the fats? i see no added fats… olive oil, nuts, peanut butter, avacado… an extra 500 calories of those would be simple and very essential for lean mass.
quit being a pussy saying that you cant grow. EAT until your full and then eat another plate full.
i dont believe in the dirty calorie diets. i’ve done it and it wasnt very nice to my body composition. but for fucks sake thats hardly any food.
on workout days i throw in another 150-200 carbs around 6th & 7th meal
ive never counted my calories but i know when i stop gaining i eat more… when i recomp i drop a few carbs and some portion sizes[/quote]
what is a dirty calorie diet?[/quote]
i call dirty calories are any calories from processed foods. now granted processed foods/sugars have their place. i sometimes eat 3 oreo’s pre workout (24g carbs) for energy and a insulin spike. i might also eat a small bowl of gluten free rice crispies with 1/2 cup almond milk (30 cal) pre workout as well. which i dont call dirty since it has 2 ingredients - brown rice and sodium.
any/most processed foods i eat pre workout or post workout. everyone needs a little dirty food to stay sane.
i just happen to find i cant eat many carbs without getting soft. if i need more calories i up my fat intake usually and it keeps me pretty lean.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You are NOT Stu. Few people on this board have lifted for over ten years straight without fail to reach some extreme level of development…so why even mention how fast some advanced lifter can grow?
Even RONNIE COLEMAN wouldn’t expect more than about 5lbs of new muscle a year…so why the distinction?[/quote]
It’s interesting to me that no one ever mentions the fact that Stu has been lifting for a long time. Instead, the discussion seems to end up something like “X, Stu, H4M, ebomb, [etc] are genetic freaks–that’s why they are big and I am not.”
What is most funny from these responses is that most of the guys I have known who do use steroids (especially those who use very early on) have WORSE GENETICS AND RESULTS than the hardcore natural lifters or at least the ones who put in many years naturally before using anything.
If you are making decisions in training based on some arbitrary concept of being “natural” vs “assisted” you are doing it wrong.
That entire line of thought assumes there are no genetically gifted natural trainers who go against those strict beliefs.
my last 1.5 years have been the most productive based on the fact of understanding my body and my lifting strategies and cardio.
and i’ve lifted (or so i thought) since i was 14, now 26. ive made more gains in the last 1.5 years than all the other years added up. and it all came down to diet and a few training changes.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You are NOT Stu. Few people on this board have lifted for over ten years straight without fail to reach some extreme level of development…so why even mention how fast some advanced lifter can grow?
Even RONNIE COLEMAN wouldn’t expect more than about 5lbs of new muscle a year…so why the distinction?[/quote]
It’s interesting to me that no one ever mentions the fact that Stu has been lifting for a long time. Instead, the discussion seems to end up something like “X, Stu, H4M, ebomb, [etc] are genetic freaks–that’s why they are big and I am not.”
[/quote]
Exactly. It took a hell of effort to gain as much muscle as I did PAST that inital 5-7 years or so. People seem to think only along the lines of “extreme beginner” or “advanced”.
the truth is, if you really want to get swole (not just kinda big) you HAVE to have genetics better than most as well as more work ethic…because those gains get much harder the longer you lift.
ANY lifter would see a solid 5lbs gain as great if they lifted for 20 damn years and were already freaks to the average person.
That whole other post implied that your actions should be base don whether you are natural or not…which is dumb and will only keep these guys small in the long run.
[quote]ty_ty13 wrote:
my last 1.5 years have been the most productive based on the fact of understanding my body and my lifting strategies and cardio.[/quote]
That is how it will go for the rest of your life. What you think you know now will seem clueless to you 5 years from now also.
As you grow, you have to change how you respond because your body will not work the same.
im about to the point that im loosing mobility, but being able to hold 225lbs and loose about 2-3lbs of body fat would be about where i want to be. some where between a large pro physique model and a small bodybuilder.
just 5 more pounds of lean mass… then i’ll be happy (yeah right…)
[quote]ty_ty13 wrote:
im about to the point that im loosing mobility, but being able to hold 225lbs and loose about 2-3lbs of body fat would be about where i want to be. some where between a large pro physique model and a small bodybuilder[/quote]
About that, I currently weigh what was pretty heavy for me years back. I carry it well now and my mobility is possibly better than it has been.
Your body needs TIME to adjust to major weight changes. These changes, even when minor, can have affects on balance, gait, stance and even your breathing due to posture.
That is why you don’t make drastic changes based on initial experience like this.
This alone is why you hear so many people claim some limit.
I remember hitting 250 for the first time and being winded. I know I just gained about 5lbs and I notice it slightly…which just means I need to hold the weight.
@X: I don’t really see what you are arguing about. Gmoore’s starting point was an empirical observation concerning how most competitive natties do their business. He then provided some reasonable explanations why they do what they do and how it might differ for assisted lifters. It was a good post, but nothing controversial I think.
“If you are making decisions in training based on some arbitrary concept of being “natural” vs “assisted” you are doing it wrong.”
Not sure what you refer to by “arbitrary”, but it’s painfully obvious (to me) that being assisted can* have very REAL influence on how you approach your hypertrophy strategy. For assisted lifters it’s not a problem to get fat in the off season, if it only results in slightly more hypertrophy, because his hormones don’t tank while doing it and he can easily and very fast strip off the extra fat without losing muscles. And yes, it’s the combo of AAS, GH, clen, T3, etc. and not genetics that will make that happen.
I say “can” because some assisted lifters don’t approach it differently. Zraw, for example, vehemently argues that he is doing way better, staying lean.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote: @X: I don’t really see what you are arguing about. Gmoore’s starting point was an empirical observation concerning how most competitive natties do their business. He then provided some reasonable explanations why they do what they do and how it might differ for assisted lifters. It was a good post, but nothing controversial I think.[/quote]
I just stated what I am arguing about. Most of these people are not at some level to compete as “natural lifters” or any other kind of lifter. Most of these guys are NOT advanced lifters.
[quote]
“If you are making decisions in training based on some arbitrary concept of being “natural” vs “assisted” you are doing it wrong.”
Not sure what you refer to by “arbitrary”, but it’s painfully obvious (to me) that being assisted can* have very REAL influence on how you approach your hypertrophy strategy. [/quote]
Can is the key word here. You don’t know one way or the other and making decisions based on a “possibility” is dumb as shit if your goal is to get swole.
[quote]
For assisted lifters it’s not a problem to get fat in the off season,[/quote]
? Bullshit. You are saying NO assisted lifter has problems with fat loss?
You are making decisions based on what you THINK will happen. Not smart, kid.
I don’t even know what you are talking about? All I get is
blabla…I’m the god of swoleness…blabla…you are dumb…blabla…?Bullshit…blabla…I’m way bigger than Stu and the other tiny natties on TN…why don’t you people worship me…blabla
Anyway, I’m off to Burger King to get me a dozen cheeseburgers. Happy eating.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
I don’t even know what you are talking about? All I get is
blabla…I’m the god of swoleness…blabla…you are dumb…blabla…?Bullshit…blabla…I’m way bigger than Stu and the other tiny natties on TN…why don’t you people worship me…blabla
Anyway, I’m off to Burger King to get me a dozen cheeseburgers. Happy eating.[/quote]
Cool, I would imagine you look like you don’t get it also.
I don’t eat “cheeseburgers”. I hate cheese.
I will leave that crap to you and your backwards thought processes.
Isn’t the main issue related to the fact that making great gains in the gym requires a caloric surplus, NOT a specific bodyfat level? The guys who are overly worried about fat gain (i.e. many younger posters) and afraid to go into a deep enough caloric surplus, and won’t get big and strong for that reason. Obviously there are guys on the other end of the spectrum. I wouldn’t consider either advanced.
In this area we should clearly be looking at competitive bodybuilders to see what they do and advise, because clearly everyone else hasn’t had success like them in this area. From what I’ve seen it’s mainly a process of refinement, most any decent diet and training will move noobs forward quickly, but advanced lifters will need much stricter training and diet to still progress, and even then that progress is slow.
[quote]austin_bicep wrote:
Same old fucking shit.[/quote]
Yep…especially the part about guys changing their training because they THINK they all respond the same.[/quote]
Yes sir. I think less talk, more do is what is needed. I have asked a ton of questions in the past, received a ton of advice. Honestly I have always reverted back to what I learned on my own, it’s taken years in the gym, lots of bumps in the road, but I finally figured out how my body responds to all different stimulus and what works best.
Point is, if you just listen to your body over several years, you’ll figure it out. If you get stuck on a black and white solution and never branch out to try or do new/different things, you are limiting your potential.
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
Isn’t the main issue related to the fact that making great gains in the gym requires a caloric surplus, NOT a specific bodyfat level? The guys who are overly worried about fat gain (i.e. many younger posters) and afraid to go into a deep enough caloric surplus, and won’t get big and strong for that reason. Obviously there are guys on the other end of the spectrum. I wouldn’t consider either advanced.
In this area we should clearly be looking at competitive bodybuilders to see what they do and advise, because clearly everyone else hasn’t had success like them in this area. From what I’ve seen it’s mainly a process of refinement, most any decent diet and training will move noobs forward quickly, but advanced lifters will need much stricter training and diet to still progress, and even then that progress is slow.[/quote]
I definitely gain muscle better remaining leaner.
I am not going to say someone is right or wrong, but at lower bodyfat levels my body has been adapting to training stimulus a lot better.
I feel better, look better and also experience a lot of the side effects to increased testosterone production (libido is much higher), increased focus and mental clarity.
Being lean is going to put you in a very productive state for regulating good anabolic hormone production.
I am not going to say someone is right or wrong, but at lower bodyfat levels my body has been adapting to training stimulus a lot better.
[/quote]
I don’t have a problem with that sentiment, but you should clarify that you’re talking about you right now. You, like almost every person on here who has been successful, had an initial stage that led to adipose accumulation (ie getting a bit fat).
Point being, I just can’t think of anyone on these boards who has had a lot of success starting off with a “lean gains” mentality for that initial building stage. Most successful people seem to use the sloh approach of having that initial bulk.
Whether having that stage is necessary is a matter for debate, but how you respond to training now doesn’t necessarily inform how you would have gained size at an earlier period in your training life.
I’m not necessarily contradicting what you wrote–it’s just an corollary point that I think is important.
