Can't Get Bigger!?

Training
121

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

I definitely gain muscle better remaining leaner.

I am not going to say someone is right or wrong, but at lower bodyfat levels my body has been adapting to training stimulus a lot better.

[/quote]

I don’t have a problem with that sentiment, but you should clarify that you’re talking about you right now. You, like almost every person on here who has been successful, had an initial stage that led to adipose accumulation (ie getting a bit fat).

Point being, I just can’t think of anyone on these boards who has had a lot of success starting off with a “lean gains” mentality for that initial building stage. Most successful people seem to use the sloh approach of having that initial bulk.

Whether having that stage is necessary is a matter for debate, but how you respond to training now doesn’t necessarily inform how you would have gained size at an earlier period in your training life.

I’m not necessarily contradicting what you wrote–it’s just an corollary point that I think is important.[/quote]

The same point I’ve been making for years. You can not ignore that the most impressive people are usually the ones who DID spend a few years just working on size alone.

The small dudes are the only ones who think otherwise.

I would also say that I have seen less overall muscle growth from austin since his approach…so I am not sure how someone can make the claim that they gain better now if the gains are that slow to start with.

122

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]

I see what you’re saying, but I think you’re arguing against things I didn’t really say, because you’ve seen others say them.

  • I did not assume to know anyone’s genetics and metabolism based on whether they are natural or not. I made an observation based on how MOST nattys I’ve seen/heard about approach their diet, vs how many assisted trainees do. I said most nattys, once they have been training a while, have built a good amount of muscle, and know their OWN bodies, tend to try to stay leaner, while you see many assisted lifters get a bit “softer” in their offseasons. [/quote]

I understand that…and my assertion is that most of tehse fuckers are flat out wrong about their approach because they ignore that YES, you do need to spend some time just working on size if being really swole is your goal…not “lean gains” or whatever that means. The whole goal is “lean gains” in the long run.

There is no special way for natties to train and eat.

[quote]

  • I didn’t say anyone was saying just go nuts and get fat, nor did I say to ignore your own results and listen to your body. You asked for an explanation of my observation, so I tried to give one. [/quote]

You did…and you also made it clear that you were making this statement based on someone’s natural staus alone and not what they actually see in the gym.

Whether they use steroids or not is a NON-issue here.

[quote]

  • I don’t think Ronnie Coleman is a very good example, as he is obviously one of the most muscular men of all time, so he was already nearing his ceiling even with the drugs. But take Coleman when he was just getting onto the NPC scene, and even though he was already super developed, he still had lots of progress to make (Due to work ethic, diet, genetics, AND drugs, but drugs are certainly a large part of it).[/quote]

???Coleman was swole from looking at weights. he was only about 220 when he hit the NPC scene. He is a GREAT example of an advanced lifter who won’t see a ton of muscle growth now.

This is psuedoscience nonsense. You can’t say any of this without seeing how an individual responds first.

[quote]
Basically I think you saw my post as me setting limits on what people should be able to do rather than listening to their bodies (which, to be fair, I have seen a lot of people doing), when I was simply giving explanations for the general trends, while saying newbs should NOT be letting fear of fat loss hold them back, and that this is what I’ve seen, from people who are, in fact, listening to their bodies.[/quote]

No, I saw your post as feeding into the concept that somehow you need to train in some specific way because you are natural. The approach is THE SAME.

123

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

I definitely gain muscle better remaining leaner.

I am not going to say someone is right or wrong, but at lower bodyfat levels my body has been adapting to training stimulus a lot better.

[/quote]

I don’t have a problem with that sentiment, but you should clarify that you’re talking about you right now. You, like almost every person on here who has been successful, had an initial stage that led to adipose accumulation (ie getting a bit fat).

Point being, I just can’t think of anyone on these boards who has had a lot of success starting off with a “lean gains” mentality for that initial building stage. Most successful people seem to use the sloh approach of having that initial bulk.

Whether having that stage is necessary is a matter for debate, but how you respond to training now doesn’t necessarily inform how you would have gained size at an earlier period in your training life.

I’m not necessarily contradicting what you wrote–it’s just an corollary point that I think is important.[/quote]

When you are young, you tend to listen to certain opinions and disregard others. You are not as open ideas and tend to think you know everything.

That was me at least.

I have friends who started skinny and have put on great size remaining lean. There are ends to both spectrums and many ways to do something.

Do I think getting fat helped?

Yes and no.

Do you know that I put 60 pounds on my bench press while I lost over 50 pounds of fat. Deadlifted my heaviest 55 pounds later (585 x 3)

What bulking that big did for me;

-Added substantial fat and muscle
-Lowered my self esteem
-Made me the most motivated individual because I never want to feel or look that way again
-Taught me about sound nutrition and different ways of eating, what works and what doesn’t
-Has fueled my fire to make the most perfect physique I can achieve
-Has enabled me to realize that I can accomplish what I set out to do
-Has taken me years to shed the unwanted pounds, but this isn’t a sprint, it’s a marathon

You get the point, mentally it’s made me one tough son of a bitch coming from the fucking bottom. I was a shy, insecure, fat boy and it made me become and I’m still becoming, the muscular, outspoken, confident man.

My life has changed so much since then. I’m realistic now too, know my goals and know I can get to them.

It’s a little different when your goal as a kid or late teen is to become and IFBB pro.

And then your change your goal to having the best body Austin can ever have (lean as possible, strong as possible, muscular as possible, natural) and being happy with who you are what you’ve been given to work with.

Kinda veered off there and gave you a different answer than you expected.

But I keep bringing this up, you testosterone, insulin sensitivity, GH output, all this essential stuff to growing is going to be elevated when you are “in-shape” and I’ll let everyone determine their definition of that.

124

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

I definitely gain muscle better remaining leaner.

I am not going to say someone is right or wrong, but at lower bodyfat levels my body has been adapting to training stimulus a lot better.

[/quote]

I don’t have a problem with that sentiment, but you should clarify that you’re talking about you right now. You, like almost every person on here who has been successful, had an initial stage that led to adipose accumulation (ie getting a bit fat).

Point being, I just can’t think of anyone on these boards who has had a lot of success starting off with a “lean gains” mentality for that initial building stage. Most successful people seem to use the sloh approach of having that initial bulk.

Whether having that stage is necessary is a matter for debate, but how you respond to training now doesn’t necessarily inform how you would have gained size at an earlier period in your training life.

I’m not necessarily contradicting what you wrote–it’s just an corollary point that I think is important.[/quote]
I agree with what both of you have said. Personally, I think the initial bulking stage goes along with the refinement process in bodybuilding - someone can’t manage the ratio of fat to muscle gained well if he/she has never known how to gain significant muscle in the first place.

125

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

I definitely gain muscle better remaining leaner.

I am not going to say someone is right or wrong, but at lower bodyfat levels my body has been adapting to training stimulus a lot better.

[/quote]

I don’t have a problem with that sentiment, but you should clarify that you’re talking about you right now. You, like almost every person on here who has been successful, had an initial stage that led to adipose accumulation (ie getting a bit fat).

Point being, I just can’t think of anyone on these boards who has had a lot of success starting off with a “lean gains” mentality for that initial building stage. Most successful people seem to use the sloh approach of having that initial bulk.

Whether having that stage is necessary is a matter for debate, but how you respond to training now doesn’t necessarily inform how you would have gained size at an earlier period in your training life.

I’m not necessarily contradicting what you wrote–it’s just an corollary point that I think is important.[/quote]

The same point I’ve been making for years. You can not ignore that the most impressive people are usually the ones who DID spend a few years just working on size alone.

The small dudes are the only ones who think otherwise.

I would also say that I have seen less overall muscle growth from austin since his approach…so I am not sure how someone can make the claim that they gain better now if the gains are that slow to start with.[/quote]

Yup no more beginners gains is going to lead to less muscle growth as time goes on. But the fact that I weighed in about 15 pounds more over 6 months past summer and was noticeably leaner and I could post pictures, with much rounder delts, bigger arms and legs. I’ll take it.

If anyone wants to know my goals, it’s to have the look of a male fitness model. Becoming as aesthetically pleasing as I can.

126

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
change routine, eat more, stay motivated[/quote]
End.Of.Thread. oh wait sorry, I forgot I’m on T-Nation, sorry continue.

127

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

I definitely gain muscle better remaining leaner.

I am not going to say someone is right or wrong, but at lower bodyfat levels my body has been adapting to training stimulus a lot better.

[/quote]

I don’t have a problem with that sentiment, but you should clarify that you’re talking about you right now. You, like almost every person on here who has been successful, had an initial stage that led to adipose accumulation (ie getting a bit fat).

Point being, I just can’t think of anyone on these boards who has had a lot of success starting off with a “lean gains” mentality for that initial building stage. Most successful people seem to use the sloh approach of having that initial bulk.

Whether having that stage is necessary is a matter for debate, but how you respond to training now doesn’t necessarily inform how you would have gained size at an earlier period in your training life.

I’m not necessarily contradicting what you wrote–it’s just an corollary point that I think is important.[/quote]

The same point I’ve been making for years. You can not ignore that the most impressive people are usually the ones who DID spend a few years just working on size alone.

The small dudes are the only ones who think otherwise.

I would also say that I have seen less overall muscle growth from austin since his approach…so I am not sure how someone can make the claim that they gain better now if the gains are that slow to start with.[/quote]

Yup no more beginners gains is going to lead to less muscle growth as time goes on. But the fact that I weighed in about 15 pounds more over 6 months past summer and was noticeably leaner and I could post pictures, with much rounder delts, bigger arms and legs. I’ll take it.

If anyone wants to know my goals, it’s to have the look of a male fitness model. Becoming as aesthetically pleasing as I can.
[/quote]

I wasn’t dissing you, just staing truth. I look leaner right now too and gained 20lbs since my accident.

this isn’t about someone discrediting you. It is about making sure that it is known that claiming MORE muscle because of staying leaner does not seem to be supported by your progress.

128

Gmoore, I fucked uop your post by accident. I am sorry about that. I Edited it instead if responding to it.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]

I see what you’re saying, but I think you’re arguing against things I didn’t really say, because you’ve seen others say them.

  • I did not assume to know anyone’s genetics and metabolism based on whether they are natural or not. I made an observation based on how MOST nattys I’ve seen/heard about approach their diet, vs how many assisted trainees do. I said most nattys, once they have been training a while, have built a good amount of muscle, and know their OWN bodies, tend to try to stay leaner, while you see many assisted lifters get a bit “softer” in their offseasons. [/quote]

I understand that…and my assertion is that most of tehse fuckers are flat out wrong about their approach because they ignore that YES, you do need to spend some time just working on size if being really swole is your goal…not “lean gains” or whatever that means. The whole goal is “lean gains” in the long run.

There is no special way for natties to train and eat.

[quote]

  • I didn’t say anyone was saying just go nuts and get fat, nor did I say to ignore your own results and listen to your body. You asked for an explanation of my observation, so I tried to give one. [/quote]

You did…and you also made it clear that you were making this statement based on someone’s natural staus alone and not what they actually see in the gym.

Whether they use steroids or not is a NON-issue here.

[quote]

  • I don’t think Ronnie Coleman is a very good example, as he is obviously one of the most muscular men of all time, so he was already nearing his ceiling even with the drugs. But take Coleman when he was just getting onto the NPC scene, and even though he was already super developed, he still had lots of progress to make (Due to work ethic, diet, genetics, AND drugs, but drugs are certainly a large part of it).[/quote]

???Coleman was swole from looking at weights. he was only about 220 when he hit the NPC scene. He is a GREAT example of an advanced lifter who won’t see a ton of muscle growth now.

This is psuedoscience nonsense. You can’t say any of this without seeing how an individual responds first.

No, I saw your post as feeding into the concept that somehow you need to train in some specific way because you are natural. The approach is THE SAME.

129

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]The3Commandments wrote:

[quote]austin_bicep wrote:

I definitely gain muscle better remaining leaner.

I am not going to say someone is right or wrong, but at lower bodyfat levels my body has been adapting to training stimulus a lot better.

[/quote]

I don’t have a problem with that sentiment, but you should clarify that you’re talking about you right now. You, like almost every person on here who has been successful, had an initial stage that led to adipose accumulation (ie getting a bit fat).

Point being, I just can’t think of anyone on these boards who has had a lot of success starting off with a “lean gains” mentality for that initial building stage. Most successful people seem to use the sloh approach of having that initial bulk.

Whether having that stage is necessary is a matter for debate, but how you respond to training now doesn’t necessarily inform how you would have gained size at an earlier period in your training life.

I’m not necessarily contradicting what you wrote–it’s just an corollary point that I think is important.[/quote]

The same point I’ve been making for years. You can not ignore that the most impressive people are usually the ones who DID spend a few years just working on size alone.

The small dudes are the only ones who think otherwise.

I would also say that I have seen less overall muscle growth from austin since his approach…so I am not sure how someone can make the claim that they gain better now if the gains are that slow to start with.[/quote]

Yup no more beginners gains is going to lead to less muscle growth as time goes on. But the fact that I weighed in about 15 pounds more over 6 months past summer and was noticeably leaner and I could post pictures, with much rounder delts, bigger arms and legs. I’ll take it.

If anyone wants to know my goals, it’s to have the look of a male fitness model. Becoming as aesthetically pleasing as I can.
[/quote]

I wasn’t dissing you, just staing truth. I look leaner right now too and gained 20lbs since my accident.

this isn’t about someone discrediting you. It is about making sure that it is known that claiming MORE muscle because of staying leaner does not seem to be supported by your progress.[/quote]

So I have considerable more muscle than when I was fat. I have gained muscle and gotten leaner at the same time.

I also won’t be gaining incredible amounts of muscle at a time as a natural who has years of training under his belt (beginner gains are gone).

I don’t understand why anyone would think I’d be gaining muscle left and right with those factors at hand.

Maybe pictures don’t do it justice I’ll see if I can find some old ones to prove my point.

130

[quote]
Gmoore17 wrote:

I see what you’re saying, but I think you’re arguing against things I didn’t really say, because you’ve seen others say them.

  • I did not assume to know anyone’s genetics and metabolism based on whether they are natural or not. I made an observation based on how MOST nattys I’ve seen/heard about approach their diet, vs how many assisted trainees do. I said most nattys, once they have been training a while, have built a good amount of muscle, and know their OWN bodies, tend to try to stay leaner, while you see many assisted lifters get a bit “softer” in their offseasons.

Professor X wrote:
I understand that…and my assertion is that most of tehse fuckers are flat out wrong about their approach because they ignore that YES, you do need to spend some time just working on size if being really swole is your goal…not “lean gains” or whatever that means. The whole goal is “lean gains” in the long run.

There is no special way for natties to train and eat. [/quote]

I definitely agree with you, I have said many times that worrying about fat gain right off the bat is only going to hold you back. I guess my main point was that once muscular gains do slow down, and one has learned a lot about how their body responds, then they tend to focus more on eating less above maintenance, and putting more emphasis on avoiding fat gain. Again, two reasons I think ‘assisted’ matters for this. Take one person. Yes, when he hits that ceiling where progress slows significantly, and how difficult it is for him to stay lean, differs from person to person. But you take that individual person, and if he stays natty, vs assisted, he is able to make more progress for a longer time, if assisted.

I disagree that I made that clear, because I did say “once they have learned about how their bodies respond,” as well as saying that it is what I’ve noticed from MOST trainees I’ve seen, not that ALL should do so, or that there are no differences based on genetics and other factors.

I agree that this varies among individuals, but I disagree that this is pseudoscience nonsense. Take each individual person, and if they are assisted, they will be able to gain more muscle, and lose less muscle when dieting, than if they stayed natural. This is the main function of the drugs they use.

[quote]
Gmoore17 wrote:
Basically I think you saw my post as me setting limits on what people should be able to do rather than listening to their bodies (which, to be fair, I have seen a lot of people doing), when I was simply giving explanations for the general trends, while saying newbs should NOT be letting fear of fat loss hold them back, and that this is what I’ve seen, from people who are, in fact, listening to their bodies.

Professor X wrote:
No, I saw your post as feeding into the concept that somehow you need to train in some specific way because you are natural. The approach is THE SAME.[/quote]

We are close to agreeing on this. I agree that listening to your body is the most important thing, and no one should set arbitrary limits on themselves. Individual differences in response to training and diet are more important than blanket statements of ‘natty vs assisted’. I agree that one should take a significant amount of time working on size and not letting fear of fat gain hold them back. I just pointed out that once muscular gains drastically slow down, most natural trainees seem to put more emphasis on “lean gains” and keeping fat gain to a minimum, and on an individual basis, assisted vs natty does affect that, for the reasons I’ve provided. If you think my reasons are wrong, we probably will not come to an agreement.

131

902×677 158 KB

I’ve spawned a new strength/growth spurt with chili.

Pots of meat chili (5 lbs to start). Lasts 2, maybe 2.5 days. Plus you get vegetables.

That shit makes you grow.

Mmmm. Meat.

132

5120×2880 920 KB

First pick is 22 months ago. I was 219lbs, second pic is from last month 221 pounds. I’m 2 pounds heavier with quite a noticeable amount of added muscle and less fat.

Mind I have you progress has been stellar lately since getting a lot of the alcohol and bull shit activities I partaking too much in in college.

I am going to get shredded now, and afterward, slow and steady gains will be the approach since I know how to eat.

133

Uh, once again, no one said you made no progress. I am talking about claiming you made MORE progress. I would disagree.

134

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

I agree that this varies among individuals, but I disagree that this is pseudoscience nonsense. Take each individual person, and if they are assisted, they will be able to gain more muscle, and lose less muscle when dieting, than if they stayed natural. This is the main function of the drugs they use.

[/quote]

Actually, once again you are assuming things. Everyone on steroids does NOT gain more muscle. The use of them does not promise success with them. Once again, the ASSUMPTION is where you go wrong…and that my friend is psuedoscience.

135

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Uh, once again, no one said you made no progress. I am talking about claiming you made MORE progress. I would disagree.[/quote]

Gotcha. It would make sense that I gained the most at one point as a beginner.

Was it the best way to do so? Who knows, we’ll never know, and it is just onwards and upwards from here.

If I stayed the route I was on would I be better now, that I can say, definitely not.

136

do any successful natural bodybuilders bulk up a lot in the offseason? that would be a good place to look lol, rather than debate over hypothetical circumstances

137

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
do any successful natural bodybuilders bulk up a lot in the offseason? that would be a good place to look lol, rather than debate over hypothetical circumstances[/quote]

??? Most advanced lifters don’t after they are already swole. I don’t “bulk up” now. so what is it you seem to be missing?

The whole goal of bulking up is to give your body everything it needs to gain muscle optimally, NOT “just get fat” like you seem to think.

The biggest guys DID usually bulk up.

138

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

I agree that this varies among individuals, but I disagree that this is pseudoscience nonsense. Take each individual person, and if they are assisted, they will be able to gain more muscle, and lose less muscle when dieting, than if they stayed natural. This is the main function of the drugs they use.

[/quote]

Actually, once again you are assuming things. Everyone on steroids does NOT gain more muscle. The use of them does not promise success with them. Once again, the ASSUMPTION is where you go wrong…and that my friend is psuedoscience.[/quote]

Okay, but it’s a pretty strong assumption, and I think we’d agree the vast majority of those who take steroids, make more muscular progress on cycle than off. The reason it could be considered pseudoscience and not actual science is that they won’t do studies on weight training + steroids/HGH/insulin supplementation vs weight training alone, as the drugs are banned.

139

[quote]Gmoore17 wrote:

Okay, but it’s a pretty strong assumption,[/quote]

Correction. It is a very common belief and rumor…because most of the country thinks steroids turn you into He-man. They ignore that MOST of the famous people who have used them are NOT built.

[quote]
and I think we’d agree the vast majority of those who take steroids, make more muscular progress on cycle than off. The reason it could be considered pseudoscience and not actual science is that they won’t do studies on weight training + steroids/HGH/insulin supplementation vs weight training alone, as the drugs are banned.[/quote]

Uh, no, the reason it is pseudoscience is that you are making up results. You are ASSUMING THEM. That is why it won’t work in a room with real educated people.

140

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
do any successful natural bodybuilders bulk up a lot in the offseason? that would be a good place to look lol, rather than debate over hypothetical circumstances[/quote]

??? Most advanced lifters don’t after they are already swole. I don’t “bulk up” now. so what is it you seem to be missing?

The whole goal of bulking up is to give your body everything it needs to gain muscle optimally, NOT “just get fat” like you seem to think.

The biggest guys DID usually bulk up. [/quote]
be careful with all the fabrication lol, I never said “just get fat,” I did state the following:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
Isn’t the main issue related to the fact that making great gains in the gym requires a caloric surplus, NOT a specific bodyfat level? [/quote]

so I guess I should rephrase my question to everyone: do successful natural bodybuilders veer far (> ~20 lbs I guess) off their competition weight? and if so what’s the general range that you guys see?