CAn You Build Muscle and Lose Fat at the Same Time?

Training Bodybuilding
101

Monday - lifting

warm-up: 5x10 kbell swings, 5x10 push-ups - alternate after 10 reps, no rest

Partial Javorek Complex - 3x5 reps at each of the 3 positions

Power Clean 5x5
Overhead Squat Press 5x5

Tuesday - HIIT

Jump Rope 3x3 min rounds, 1 min rest, 15-20 pushups during the 1 min rest

Kbell Circuit: 2Hand Swing, Clean (L&R), 1Hand Swing (LxR) - 3x15,5,5,10,10

Bent Press 3x3 (L&R)
Kbell Pass 3x20

400 M Sprints as per CT’s recommendation’s for those in good shape

Wednesday - lifting

warm-up: 5x10 kbell swings, 5x10 push-ups - alternate after 10 reps, no rest

The Bear - 3x5
Bench Press 5x5
Sternum Chins 5x5

Thursday - HIIT

same as Tues, but snatches instead of cleans

Friday - Off

Saturday

High volume weightlifting workout - 60 minutes of lifting, but haven’t quite decided how to do it.

Sunday - cardio

30-45 minutes of pre-breakfast cardio

Dietary Info
M-R: Breakfast - PFC, PF all day, Train at 3pm, PC until 90 min before bed, P+Fish Oil at bed time

F,Sun: likely, I’ll alternate PF and PC meals

Sat: Refeed for first 6-10 hours of day, then 1-2 PF meals before bed

***One other thing I should mention is that after Surge and likely one more PC meal, my 3rd PC meal is dinner with my wife and this may not always fit the classical PC mold, but if I can’t enjoy at least one meal a day with my wife and still be successful, then I don’t think it’s really worth it. I will also not be using a food log - I know how much and what I’m supposed to eat with each meal, so I really don’t need it.

I think stress levels have a huge role in our success and if I can reduce stress by not having to fill out my food log daily and by enjoying dinner with my wife, I think I’m going to be even more successful than if I was anal over every little point.

I’d appreciate suggestions for the Saturday full body depletion workout. I’ve got this Saturday covered as Mike Mahler’s in town to do a kettlebell workshop, so I need to figure this out by next Saturday.

102

JN:

For Saturday’s depletion workout, I’d recommend something like what Duchaine recommended in Bodyopus: full-body, machine based circuit, fairly high reps, relatively quick tempos (1 sec pos. and neg. perhaps), done for 5-8 rounds or until you just feel yourself totally hit the wall. Don’t be grinding out reps. This always worked like a charm for me.

103

Not that it matters immensely, but on Thursday, I’m doing turkish get-ups 5x5 (L&R) instead of bent pressed and kbell passes.

104

arcitek-Cortisol levels actually peak in the early morning (due to the overnight fast). There is the advantage of improved insulin sensitivity with AM training, though.

Thanks for the input on HIIT; much appreciated.

105

arcitek-Cortisol levels actually peak in the early morning (due to the overnight fast). There is the advantage of improved insulin sensitivity with AM training, though.

Thanks for the input on HIIT; much appreciated.

106

SRS: I’d save the Surge for after cardio. This is the routine I’d follow and recommend. If you’ve got your qualms with it, then I completely respect that, brutha;-)

Jay: Thanks for all the input! I’ll continue to pat those on the back and thank you for sharing the detailed guidelines of your plans. This will only assist others in their quests.

Jay, on T and R, do you do all of that work in one session? Man, after the 400 sprints or 100 sprints, I am so freakin’ wiped, I can barely pedal the ergometer for 10-15 minutes!

And, Jay, I do not see why your dinner plans with your wife will inhibit any success. As a matter of fact, it might even help out (re: the stress levels you discussed). Just be reasonable and moderate in your endeavors, which I’m sure you will.

I used to have links for Lyle’s recommendations for depletion workouts. Like Zevster recommended, I think they follow quite closely to Duchaine’s.

Ah, yes, Jay, Lyle’s summary of Duchaine’s Circuit Glycogen-Depletion Workout. It’s not fun, but it definitely does the job. There’s also a tension workout that you can do, but this one might get the job done better.

107

Timbo:

True, I thnk the “exclusively protein” version might be pushing it a bit. But with small amounts of good fat thrown in…

I mean, the main goal is to eat as little as possible to avoid getting (noticeably) catabolic right? Can you really have catabolism that badly when you’re taking in 200/300g of protein a day?

Plus, is it possible the anabolic/insulin boosting effects of the huge ‘refeed’ post-workout counteract any negligable catabolism there was in the first palce?

108

Timbo - Yeah, I do all that stuff in one session - rope work to kettlebell work and finish off with sprints. It’s pretty demanding, but so far so good. And anyday that I’m just completely not looking forward to this (kinda like Christian’s autoregulating scale), I’ll go play some basketball instead.

Zev and T-Rock - Thanks for the idea. I think that will be easy enough to do (in theory at least). Those kind of workouts are actually enjoyable as they are free flowing and leave room for some variety. I won’t be able to report back until almost 2 weeks from now how that goes due to the kettlebell workshop this weekend.

109

Wowee Zowee what a thread, kinda gets hard to keep up with at times. Thanks a heap guys.
With this style, are you still planning on doing the HIIT in the morn? Surely it would be best to keep it at the same time as your weights w/outs (on off days of course), that way you have the consistency and will help provide max focus for it. As mentioned HIIT is very taxing like a w/out so why not treat it the same?

110

Timbo:

Thanks for that link to L McD’s/DD’s depletion workout guidelines. The only thing I think is really helpful that L McD doesn’t mention is using machines; that way technique and neural fatigue issues are greatly minimized, and you can just worry about kicking your own ass.

111

New idea!!!

Ok, I realize that not everyone is doing the same thing, but lets look at my Saturday refeed.

Would there be any benefit to temporarily raising androgen levels by using MAG-10 on Friday night and then Saturday morning?

This would be to maximize the hormonal environment within the refeed and could make a bottle of MAG-10 last almost 6 weeks.

Any thoughts?

112

Damn, guys!

Just got through catching up on this Mondo Thread, and I gotta say props to you guys for sharing all this information in your discussions.

Memo to all you in the T-Nation:

  1. Copy and paste everything in this thread into Wordpad.

  2. Print it out.

  3. Get out your three-hole punch, a spare binder, and throw these pages into it for some extremely valuable reference material down the road.

This stuff is like a freakin’ user-friendly textbook, for God’s sake!

113

Hyphnz - I’m doing my HIIT sessions at the same time as my weights. Basically when I get done with the strength and conditioning practice for the football players, I hit my workout.

This is great timing as I’ve already done a lot of misc. work with the team and I’m quickly ready to dive into the real deal.

And I totally agree, this has to be one of the top 5 threads I’ve ever been a part of.

114

OK, this might have been posted on here sometime, but I couldn’t find it. This is regarding the post workout cardio.

Since this diet is similar to the Poliquin diet, we may want to look to him to see what he suggests about post-workout cardio. If I’m not mistaken, he says he likes post-workout cardio, especially if it takes your training time over one hour. I’m not suggesting sprints or anything, but I do agree with Timbuktu. A nice 10-20 minute moderate session will help with recovery and should not effect the muscle building progress too much.

Now, onto another topic. When you guys are taking Surge post HIIT (which I fully agree with), how much are you taking? I am of the opinion that you don’t need as much as after a weight training session and therefore only take a 1/2 serving followed 90 minutes later with a P+F meal. Does that sound reasonable?

115

Uh, Brent, you couldn’t be more off with that last Poliquin statement. CP loathes traditional cardio more than anything, asserting that it is far too catabolic to be included in any training program (with the exception being those who are involved in aerobic sports), regardless of the timing. While he does use HIIT with his athletes, you’ll never find him recommending that anyone rub their ass raw on a bike for an hour…

116

Beanie: Finally, someone steps up to the mic and sees that some post-workout cardio isn’t the devil!:slight_smile: Regarding HIIT…I actually think that an HIIT routine can be as glycogen-depleting (if not more so</i) as resistance training. This type of training is extremely, extremely demanding as you guys know. I would follow the same post-workout guidelines as for a weight training session.

As far as timing of the HIIT session, I think if you’re keeping the same eating schedule as your lifting days, then you might as well do it at the same time. This comes down to personal preference, though, as some people just don’t have the giddy-up in the evening.

Jay, did you mean that you do HIIT after a lifting session? I was somewhat confused there. In your first post, it outlined them as separate sessions, but in your last post I gathered they were one in the same. Not a big deal though. Jay, that’s one demanding HIIT session for ya, brutha! Keep up the hard work.

Jay, in theory, I could see the application of the androgens helping with nutrient paritioning. It probably wouldn’t hurt anything at all.

Zev, I agree, brutha. Trying to do squats, bench press, deadlifts, et al. circuit style is a Recipe for Destruction. Go with the machines if you’re going to do a circuit, or at least relegate free weight exercises to single-joint and/or isolation exercises.

Jay, are the workouts fun? Yes, when they’re done and you can feed like a mofo:-) During? Not hardly. You just want to curse anyone and everyone. Go ahead and curse me;-)

Dave: Protein and Fat? Uh, yeah, that’s what we’ve been purporting, brutha;-) That should be fine.

Arcitek, E-C already gave us the lowdown on peak cortisol levels. But I’ll just add that regardless of the time of day or night, after a training session, be it resistance, aerobic or both, insulin sensivity is going to be jacked higher than any other time of the day.

117

J-N.: Thanks for that detailed summary- very interesting to see. Tell me, have you guesstimated how long the weights workout will take total? And also what sort of rest periods are you taking between 5x5’s. Are you going high intensity, or concentrating on full recovery between sets? I can see some advantages to both.


Brent N: Yes, I’ve been thinking a lot about the post HIIT nutrition too. I myself DON’T think that a full serving of Surge would be problematic here, and might be more beneficial. As Timboy and J-N have hinted at above, we are going to be just as glycogen depleted (if not more?) after HIIT as the weights workouts.

The muscles can carry in the region of 250g glycogen. 1 serving of Surge is still below this “fill-up” and should just help to better prepare the muscles for the weights session the following day. What IS going to be tricky is the next meal. I would probably agree with you on this one- a P/F seems logical on this predominantly planned fat-burning day, i.e. let’s get back on that fat- burning track.


However, what about TIMING of this first solid meal? Too early, and the fat consumed may go in the wrong direction. Timbo, J-N, E-C, Hogan- what are your ideas/plans on this one?


The good conversation continues…SRS

118

I, too, have been concerned about the post HIIT nutrition.

I’m currently following T-Dawg 2 to a “T” ('scuse the pun) and with only 70 grams of carbs available on days I don’t lift, I don’t have much room to throw in many carbs in the form of a PWO drink after HIIT.

I feel like I should be consuming SOMETHING afterwards. What do you guys suggest? Maybe a scoop of protein with a small amount of maltodextrin?

119

mamann-That’s exactly what I do. Roughly 20g whey, a one spoonful each of malto and dextrose, and 5g glutamine. I’ll also take a total of 15g BCAAs; 5g pre-HIIT, 5g during (mixed in my water bottle), and 5g after. I should add that this is for my longer duration (20-25 minute) sessions on the elliptical or spinning bike.

120

I would first off like to congratulate my man Jay for hitting the Century on this thread!

I am pretty set in my recommendation of 10-15 minutes of moderate-intensity cardio following the resistance training session. This will increase nutrient partitioning and improve muscle to fat gain. Not to mention the enhanced blood flow to all working muscles that will assist recovery. Just follow this whole shabang up with your Surge and make sure to grub away to compensate. This also allows for more calories burned. More calories burned = more calories in to compensate.

Sir SRS, actually the one’s capacity to store glycogen in the muscles probably ranges from 350-500g, in our population. Sorry to be nit-picky:-)

As far as the post-HIIT nutrition…go with your serving of Surge (be 1/2 or full dosage), but I would probably follow it up an hour later with a normal, low GI/II P/C meal. I just don’t like the hormonal environment after something like Surge to:

  1. remain without nutrients for 90-120, and/or
  2. follow it up with a P/F meal.

The hormonal milieu (i.e. highly insulinemic) is very conducive to fat storage and glucose oxidation. I’d rather see the body return to a more stable level of blood glucose and insulin. Waiting too long to consume nutrients (whether it be P/C or P/F) also causes me hesitation. Due to the fact that these nutrients are quickly digested and absorbed, the body is primed for more nutrients quickly (a rough rule of thumb is <60 minutes, depending on the size of the serving of Surge). Since the body is in a state of preferential glucose oxidation (i.e. high insulin), you will become catabolic. While this doesn’t necessarily guarantee muscle protein breakdown, I would think it’s more often a result than not.