Man, I just learned a horrible lesson!
I had a real nice, long post all typed up. I clicked submit and got that error message. Man, I clicked back, and Shazaam, Goober! it was gone.
I’ll try it again later. Oh, the humanity!
Timbo - try typing out your post in notepad and then copying and pasting it into the text block. You won’t have the problem of losing the post and then quotations and all that won’t come out weird like in Word. I had that happen once too and I learned my lesson!
Eric - good call on the greens. I’ll up the dose during lunch and maybe throw in some mixed veggies post workout in my rice. Think I’ll add a few fish oil caps to my protein shakes as well. As far as my training split goes, I’m doing CT’s OVT. The workouts are intense, but a little too long for my liking. I’ll stick it out for these 4 weeks and see what happens. Cardio wise, there is still snow on the ground so I haven’t made it to the track yet, but I’ve been doing HIIT on training days M, TH, Saturday, and a longer less intense 30-40 minute session on leg days. I’ll actually ride at a moderate pace for 15 minutes and then I’ll start the HIIT for 6-7 sets, 1:30 rest and 30 seconds hard. I’ll be bringing down my rest sets every week or so by 10 seconds to keep the intensity high.
During my meeting this morning, I was thinking about whether or not we are entering ketosis with this cycle or carbs only post workout. We’re really only filling up our glycogen stores, so are any carbs being stored in our liver at all? I’d like to see JB pop in on this thread and answer a few questions.
-Hogan-
Okay (deep breath), I’ve regained my composure and am going to give it a go again:-) Hollywood, good call, but you make it too simple;-)
SRS, my man, it’s always great to have your well-thought-out, insightful and quality posts aboard.
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That’s exactly the point I was trying to convey.
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I would probably advise against during the night nutrition, but if it was implemented, I would suggest protein alone or some added fats. I think that we’d be consuming enough nutrients in our window to tide us over. But it’s a good point, nonetheless.
E-C, I’m going to talk to the kid again about the protein synthesis issue. I should see him today. I’ve read the study myself and there’s absolutely no mention of protein synthesis. It’s all about endurance performance based on increased glycogen synthesis (just like you suggested).
Okay, what I tried to do before was lay out some guidelines and principles as to what we’ve already established. The following is the protocol for an individual that trains in the evening.
*(Optional) A 30-45 minute walk in the fasted-state upon arising. Possible supplements that might be advised include yohimbine, ephdrine and caffeine, caffeine, tyrosine, etc. Timing would be important here as well.
*Consume protein and fat meals up until training. This should provide an optimal environment for fat-burning. Protein sources should be comprised of egg whites, whole eggs, lean beef, chicken and turkey breast, tuna, salmon, cottage cheese, cheese and protein blends. Fat should be based on flax oil, olive oil, mixed nuts, cashew butter (try it, it’s awesome) and fish oil. Add fibrous, green veggies to these meals. Eating should occur at regular intervals (i.e. every 2 to 3 hours). Eating should be approached during this time period as if on a hypoenergetic diet.
*Train like an animal. Follow up your resistance training with 10-20 minutes of low- to moderate-intensity cardio for some additional caloric expenditure, but more importantly, for recovery.
*Consume a liquid beverage that is Surge-like in nature. Consume 1/2 to 1 serving immediately after training.
*30-60 minuts after the drink, the feasting begins! Consume a high protein and carbohydrate meal. I would like to see at least 50g and 100g, respectively, if not more.
*Within the next two hours, take in another protein and carb meal. The numbers should be close to the same as mentioned above.
*Eating during this window should be approached as hyperenergetic.
*Consume that last meal about 90 minutes before retiring. This should prevent an insulin-inhibited release of GH during sleep.
I think that gives some general overview for now. We can definitely add to it, and I’d actually like to print something up.
One thing that we haven’t really discussed is the feeding approach on HIIT only days. For example, will we suggest the same eating schedule? Will we follow up the HIIT with a normal P/C meal approach? Will we consume only P/F on HIIT days?
Aight, fellas; I got a few things to cover, so I’m going to have to break this 'em all up because I’m the first senile 21 year-old in history, and I’m bound to forget what the hell I was getting at. Here goes:
I don’t see it as mandatory to be in a hypocaloric state during the day. I’ll be going with maintenance intake, as I’m sure that the combination of the TEF of the high protein intake (I’ll be going for roughly 310g/day) and the additional activity upon rising will enable me to keep fat off. I should mention that mass gain will be my priority with this, but I suspect that decreasing calories during the day would be the ideal way to turn it into a cutting-oriented diet. I’d be careful about taking calories too low during the day, as keeping fat intake up at these times is important for optimizing endogenous T levels.
For the most part, I agree with what Timbo said. I do, however, disagree with two things. First, I will definitely NOT be including cardio with my evening lifting sessions. The goal of this session is to get into the gym, train hard, and get out. My anabolic period starts when I start sipping my Surge at the beginning of my workout. Aerobics are catabolic, and deserve no place in this time of peak anabolism. IMO, the costs of pushing the limits with post-training cardio far outweigh any benefits that might be attained in terms of insulin sensitivity for the carb intake to follow. With other dieting and training schemes, I don’t see post-workout cardio as “the devil,” but in this setup, I consider it to be inappropriate. I certainly don’t think that it will do anything to promote recovery.
I agree with the 100g carbs and 50g protein as a general recommendation (see my next post for more in-depth thoughts). I would like to add that fat intake should be kept as low as possible with this meal. I’ll be using ALA prior to it, and perhaps even some vanadyl sulfate as a glucose disposal agent.
I’d say that the second carb meal would be optional; I’ll only be having two to start (including my Surge). Before I hit the sack, I’ll go back to a P&F meal of protein powder or cottage cheese with ground flaxseeds and extra fiber.
As one of my profs digressed during a lecture this morning, the impatient, analytical, Type A in me came out and I started writinsg a few things down. I was thinking about what is the optimal load of carbs to shoot for in this window. I recalled Lyle M. saying that most individuals can pack away 10g carbs per kg LBM during a refeed. This, of course, assumes that they are essentially glycogen depleted from very low carb dieting. So, I tried to figure out how to apply this to our situation in order to come up with a carb intake recommedation.
Let’s assume that we’re in this high carb state for 5 hours per training day. As such, this accounts for anywhere from 15-25 hours per week out of a possible 168. Therefore, we are in a “cutting state” for 91%, 88%, or 85% of the total hours available. Because we aren’t on low calories during these times, we multiply them by the original 10g figure to factor in this lost dieting time. Thus, we get 9g, 8.8g, and 8.5g for training 3, 4, and 5 times per week, respectively. These numbers would be the SUM of all the carbs taken in during your carb-ups for the week. Initially, it might seem odd that more frequent training would require fewer carbs to achieve the positive effects of a refeed; however, remember that if training more frequently (and thus carbing up more frequently, leptin levels won’t suffer as much, and the anabolism of the carbup won’t be as signficant).
Here’s a sample dude who weighs 200 pounds at 10% body fat and trains 4 times per week. Recall that the coefficient for 4 times per week training is 8.8g/kg LBM. We’ll call him Jimbo:)
200 lbs x 10%= 20 lbs FM
200 lbs - 20 lbs FM = 180 lbs FFM
180 lbs / 2.2 = ~82kg FFM
82kg FFM * 8.8g carbs = 720g carbs
720g / 4 carbups = 180g carbs
According to Berardi’s .8g carbs/kg LBM recommendation for mid/post training, he should get ~65g from his Surge. As such, the meal one hour after that Surge would ideally contain 115g carbs. In this case, 115g works out to 1.4g/kg LBM. Note: just using the 1.4g/kg figure is not ideal in this situation, as doing so would not take into account the varying number of carbups per week.
Useful? Maybe…maybe not. I was surprised to see that it came out so similar to the numbers that we have been throwing out there, though. It was a hell of a lot more fun to come up with than listening to another anecdote from my prof about a camping trip in the woods and how it related to the renal system…
E-C, you senile young bastard!
Good comments, and they’ll be added to the pool.
Let me just comment on a few things.
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I agree that deliberate hypocaloric feeding during the day is not necessary. Keeping insulin and glucose levels at bay, while eating about isoenergetic, should not result in fat gain and may assist in burning up any stored fat.
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I guess the post-training cardio is up to you. The low- to moderate-intensity will not hurt you and will only assist recovery. It’s your choice. It will also allow you to eat more in the recovery period:-)
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Yep, I meant to mention low-fat, but I didn’t, so that’s a good call, brutha.
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Glucose disposal agents should prove worthy. This goes back to nutrient partitioning that I mentioned long ago, to which no one responded.
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The time at which you train is going to play an important role. E-C, if you do go with the two servings of Surge and one whole-food meal, then you should be set. I, however, much rather prefer to use my jaw. I’d like to go with two meals, if possible.
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Depending on the glycemic load and insulinemic environment, returning back to protein and fat might be a little risky when trying to minimize fat gain. This leads me to my next point…
*One of the other benefits of this type of training and feeding schedule not only allows fat-burning throughout the day and anabolism in the evening, but it promotes such without any crossover meals. You have abosolutely no concerns about ever mixing plasma carbs and insulin with plasma fats.
Timbo-Is it fair then to assume that you aren’t a proponent of pre/mid workout drinks?
Also, going back to your HIIT and low intensity cardio nutrition question: I’m leaning towards 10g BCAAs and maybe a little glutamine with some vitamin C beforehand. I’ll usually pop a PS tablet when I wake up to go to the can at about 5 AM. For the walking, I’ll just get off the treadmill, go upstairs, and chow down on my normal steak, salad, egg whites, and fish oil breakfast. On the AM sprinting days, I’ll probably just do some straight whey isolate with BCAAs mixed in, then have the normal breakfast 30-45 minutes later. If I notice that performance is down in the lifting sessions that afternoon, I’ll toss in some carbs.
On a related note, the scheduling of sprinting sessions in relation to my leg training is giving me some problems. Sprinting has always made me pretty sore and interfered with squats and deads that were performed the following day. As such, I’m thinking about putting my sprints on the day after quads and on a day two days separated from both (i.e. train quads on Monday, Hams on Thursday, and do sprints on Tuesday and Saturday). One of my sprinting sessions will take place on a day that I don’t lift, and I’ll be doing it in the middle of the day in order to really go at 'em. With this session, I’ll most likely include carbs post-training.
Timbo, Sorry, Got to second the NOT training cardio after the weights. - The weights session will take say ~45mins up to 1 hour. Further extending training further with cardio (especially in the precarious hormonal state we will find ourselves in just before re-fuelling) is ASKING for trouble- cortisol surges and catabolism.
However you’re right about there also being a fine-line (we just don’t KNOW for certain) between the anabolic “window” and the body resorting to fat storage post-workout. How to solve this?- Train early enough that you can pack in several meals (P+C) in a fairly close period post-workout. AND/OR as I was saying, consider waiting a little longer (possibly during the night?) for a P/C meal vs taking it before bed.
I would definately go with the 2:1 vs 4:1 ratio for post-workout. You’re right E-C, this was a ratio directed at endurance athletes primarily to replenish totally depleted glycogen stores.
Hogan- I’m a little concerned that you plan to continue using OVT for the weight training component of the phase. I am just thinking that perhaps the workouts will err on the long side (I’ve timed these at around the 1.25-1.5 hours for completion), with a bit too much isolation work. Would say you might be better (as E-C was suggesting) a workout based on compound movements and “short and sharp”? However, I guess if you’re already on the cycle it seems a shame to pull it prematurely.
Anyway, looks like both of you are on the whole forming apparently sound plans here. Indeed, if the plans do differ somewhat, it’ll be very interested in seeing how Hogan and E-C’s respective results turn out.
Got a few other things to say (as per normal!), but gotta go out now, so…I’ll be back. SRS
I forgot to direct my question in regards to scheduling of HIIT session in relation to sprints to Kelly B., although all input is appreciated. Anyone had positive results with using sprints the day after quads?
First off, thanks for all the great input so far guys; this has turned into a phenomenal thread! But I do have a couple questions for you:
First, wouldn’t you be better served not being in a glycogen-depleted state before hitting the weights? I can see the value for fat-burning purposes; and I can certainly see the value in post workout carbs/protein. But it seems like you would get more bang for your buck - able to lift more, increased endurance - if you had some carbs in you beforehand. Maybe I’m off-base in my thinking, but I would think the added muscle trauma would mean greater growth during the anabolic period.
Second, how is this really different from the ABCDE Diet (or its successor, the Delta 1250)? I know, that called for two weeks bulking/two weeks cutting, and what you’re all talking about is on a much narrower scale. But my understanding was that the problem people were having on that diet was that they just lost and gained the same weight over and over. In our case here, might there not be a tendency to do the same (FIFO: first on, first off)?
I’m not trying to be a naysayer here, I guess I’m just playing devil’s advocate. Thoughts, comments (besides STFU ;-)?
timbo,
I know that but I was speaking terms of the breaking down of muscle tissue…not fat.
the simultaneous breakdown of fat and building of muscle…as long as “muscle” is not broken thats all that matters…
The fat can break down all day…amtter of fact that is what the point of this thread was.
Muscle catabolsim and fat catabolism are two different things.
Tyler-Good thoughts, but I can’t say that I agree. For one, low carbs does not equate to decreased performance for many people, especially once they have “trained” their bodies to efficiently use fat for fuel. This is the premise behind Poliquin using low carb diets with 75% of his athletes. As he has stated, the low carb decreases performance argument is only true in 25% of the people he encounters. Furthermore, I’ll be taking in simple sugars immediately pre/mid/post workout for a rapid source of fuel (as per JB’s recommendations).
Secondly, comparing this to the Delta 1250 or ABCDE approaches is like comparing apples and oranges; the differences between prolonged dieting with long refeeds and short term caloric restriction with short refeeds are immense.
Regarding the topic of cardio, I think that a 10 minute session of hard HIIT certainly wouldn’t cause a drastic amount of catabolism. In fact, if anything, wouldn’t it get the blood pumping through your vains at a higher rate at which to get the nutrients in Surge to your muscles faster? Maybe that’s overthinking it a bit, but if the goal here is to get the nutrients to the muscles as fast as possible to prevent catabolism, 10 minutes won’t kill us. So now we have 2 against 2 on the post training cardio debate
SRS: OVT is great but it does take FOREVER. I know CT used it along with Fat Fast and had good results, but I’m second guessing the amount of time it takes to complete a workout. What type of split would you recommend? I think I’ll finish out the second week of OVT using the 5x5 protocol, see how I feel and maybe finish up the second 2 weeks doing OVT with a 3x5 protocol.
Tyler: My opinion is that because we’re in an isocaloric state, and I personally have a P+F shake about an hour before training, energy shouldn’t be an issue, especially with the carb load post training. I’ve had surge immediately prior to training and lately I’ve been going with the P+F shake before training and haven’t noticed much difference as far as a loss of energy halfway through.
It might be a good idea if we put the stats of everyone into the equation, as well as calories taken in, training splits, HIIT, etc just to compare. I would start, but it’s been about 15 minutes since my Surge and it’s time to start cooking the rice!
-Hogan-
eric,
last summer i trained quads either the day before or on the same day as a soccer game. (quads a.m; soccer p.m.)
the only thing i noticed was a slight decrease in sprinting ability; but i felt that the running-around-like-a-chicken-without-a-head somewhat minimized the soreness the following day from my squating bout;(i guess from the increased blood flow flushing out the by-products from the earlier training session and so on); hope that’s of some use to you.
i have a question regarding training times. i train first thing in the morning because for one, i feel i have much more energy & strength as opposed to the evening. i believe this is do to endogenous circadian rhythms. with that being said, wouldn’t one be maximizing the use of one’s natural hormonal secretions by training early in the morning when testosterone is highest & not later in the evening when cortisol levels are peaking? i would think that consuming carbs in the evening when cortisol is at its highest would not be preferred (when trying to lose body fat). does anyone feel that weight training in the evening creates an ideal environment to prevent storage of carbs to fat from occurring?
Good discussion, my fellow brain and barnstormers.
Let’s start from the top:
E-C, by all means, I’m about as big a fan of during workout nutrition as there is. However, I let this one slip, so, again I thank you–seems like I’m the senile one;-) I would go for 1/2 serving during and 1/2 to 1 serving afterwards. This method will be particularly effective during phases of muscle growth.
Tyler, bro, you’ll never get a STFU from me. Is that some sort of University? Just kidding, just kidding:-) But this is a far cry from those diets.
E-C, how many HIIT session per week are you shooting for? I think you’d actually benefit just as well by relegating the HIIT sessions to days you don’t lift and concentrate on lifting on the days when you train.
I definitely think that you should have the carbs after the HIIT session on the day of HIIT-only. However, you might opt for a normal feeding pattern and not this burst. Remember, as far as scheduling, you’re not so concerned with performance on the sprints, but we are with the lifting. So, just give it a go and see what you can do.
SRS, no need to apologize, brutha. I’m still firm in my belief that you can cardio it up after your iron game. I’m not saying HIIT, I’m saying low- to moderate-intensity for 10 to 20 minutes. That’s what I’d do, but it’s not required. Like I said, I find it assists with recovery, not to mention the added calorie expenditure and increased nutrient partitioning.
I do think some of us are going a little overboard on the hormonal issue involved with training. This is solved simply–or attenuated–by consuming your during workout nutrition and/or BCAAs.
E-C, I’ve done high-intensity cardio and/or HIIT on the Elliptical, on the Treadmill, on the track, on the bike, and on the Stairmaster before, the day of and the day after training thighs. It doesn’t seem to make a difference for me. But that may be highly individualistic. It does seem, however, that it’s a little harder to get going, but once you start, it’s all good.
Tyler, you shouldn’t be glycogen-depleted whatsoever. For one, we’re talking about a good chunk of carbs in the post-workout period. In addition, during the day we’re striving to create a fat-burning dominant environment, not a glucose-burning environment. Carbs during training are highly advised. If you eat carbs beforehand, then you better eat them during.
So, I guess that’s the story for now. I’m still working on some data. I actually stumbled upon something like this when I grew in great proportions, but it was not at all structured or controlled. Doing so would definitely augment the process. I’ll look over my precise diet habits and get back.
Thanks for all the great thoughts, guys. E-C and Hollywood, we’re going to get you guys HYOOOGE and shredded!
Hmm…
What if you were to eat exclusively protein throughout the day (basically fasting), except post-workout, when you eat as much clean food as possible (like, say, an entire day’s worth).
I mean, I realize that this isn’t the healthiest way to live by a long shot, bit I’m somewhat interesting in what the effects would be. Would the fasting be that catabolic, given that you still eat alot every day, and you’re eating protein all the time anyway?
Maybe a less dramatic version would be to eat some fat as well, but NO carbs. So, small amounts of protein and (good) fat throughout the day (zero carbs), and then after every workout, a ridiculously huge amount of everything (clean) under the sun (possibly sans fat to speed up the absorbing).
Tell you what, if some of you more edu-ma-cated folks don’t have some really good reason why this is simply a retarded thing to do, I’ll do it for a few weeks and keep stats to see what happens.
I need something to do anyway.
Dave, that sounds like Animalbolics to me. And I think it’s quite flawed actually.
Eating protein alone all day will basically tell and teach your body to utilize that protein for energy purposes, and when the exogenous sources expire, where do you think your body will look next?
Wow! Timbo, E-C and others - really great stuff. In fact, I’ve just started a very similar program, but I will be making sure that I’m hypocaloric during the day.
I’ll be using the protocol as described by you M-R (lift MW, HIIT TR), taking F off and then Saturday begins the fun. I’ll work out in the morning (very high volume, EDT style similar to Joel’s CD update, which many here have seen) followed by a clean 6-8 hour standard refeed with one PF meal at night. Surge will be used pre, during and post workout. Sun will start off with 30-45 minutes of cardio pre-church followed by 2 PC meals and 4 PF.
I’m still stuck on the recs for the HIIT days, but I’m training as hard or maybe harder on those days, so I think I will use Surge.
The goal here is to get ripped, while simultaneously bumping up the LBM. This style of training and eating also helps appease my desire to pig out every once in a while. I figure that I might as well harness this desire and put it to good work rather than avoid it altogher and suffer the consequences.
Well, we’ve almost hit the Century mark!
Jay, welcome back. Good info. Like I said, I think that it’s a solid idea to call in the Surge Tactics for post-HIIT. You’ve got to realize that with HIIT you can actually deplete glycogen stores to a greater extent than lifting.
So, Jay, basically you’ll be eating P/C after training only and P/F thru the day. On Saturday you’ll grub like a mutha? Is that right?
The latter point you call on about the need to feed is what really intrigues me about this and the refeed protocols. For some reason, my psychology is absolutely whacked and I need to harness it. In the meantime, I don’t see why I shouldn’t treat the symptoms if it will assist.
Tyler- It’s kinda already been explained the thinking here, but by holding off the carbs till during and after the workout, we take the fat burning as far as we can before we go anabolic again.
As I stated above, it doesn’t take the body long to adapt to optimal fat burning through lipolytic enzyme induction- therefore lipids will be a legitimate energy source option even for some periods of the training routine (and definately in the cardio.
As far as the ABCDE/Delta diet vs the diet reccomendations here- it’s basically EXACTLY what us “believers” in this thread have been trying to work AGAINST in this case, -the theory that you have to cut and bulk with a large timespan between the 2. We are instead trying to keep the body in a constant state of metabolic flux during the day, and throughout the week, using diet and exercise manipulation.
Dave- Go ahead dude, try your “protein only” diet. However, I think I’d be worried for you- You’re gonna need to be eating a LOTTA protein if that’s your only energy source during the day. It ain’t gonna leave much over for actual muscle preservation. Also, I second what Timbo said in that the increased protein turnover (enztymes for this are upregulated) will mean that your needs for protein will continue to rise. I would suspect you will suffer: 1) During the supposed “anabolic” stages, where your body may still easily be using the protein as an energy source vs a muscle building block; 2) Coming OFF this diet and trying to go back to a lower protein intake.
Hogan- I think you hit the nail on the head. I DON’T think OVT in itself is a bad program, I just think it might be a little long to be best suited to your needs. The 3x5 might work. Or how about a more abbreviated “traditional” 5x5 workout?
Anyway, I was going to ask Jason Norcross (now he’s back on the scene) if he could outline in a little more detail for the rest of us his proposed weight training routine? -JASON?
Finally, to Hogan and Timbo r.e. post-workout cardio:
OK, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I WILL concede that a 10min cardio session might not do that much harm (and MIGHT even do a little good- wow, I’m being generous tonight!).
I would still say however that if your workout is intense enough, you don’t need it at all -Your metabolic rate’s already raised, you’ve done the important job as far as muscle stimulation’s concerned, so why prolong? What benefit would it have over, say, a short period of stretching? If you do still plan to go ahead with this I would presume it would be purely for recovery purposes, AND that you’d be drinking your peri-/post-workout drink at the same time?
SRS