Hogan-You summed it up pretty well. The only recommendation I would make is to view it as two distinct caloric intake phases rather than just your daily total. Basically, it’s maintenance or below for 12-13 hours per day and anabolism (hopefully) for the 3-4 hours post-training (assuming the other 8 hours are devoted to sleep).
Nephorm-I agree with Timbo; weight training first thing in the morning on an empty stomach is a sure fire plan to poor performance and possibly muscle loss. Berardi covered this in a previous Appetite for Construction.
Timbo-Sorry I didn’t get to your weight training question earlier; been working on BS for my BS all day! Although I’m always changing things up, I’ll likely start out with a straight set approach that focuses on compound movements and finishes off the session with a few isolations (maybe even a spinoff of Da Joel’s “Bring on the Bulk” program…perhaps with just differing exercise selection and split. I’ll keep ya posted, dawg.
Just wanted to add two things:
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Hogan-This is more or less a massive eating approach, except the only “massive” part about it is the bunch of P&C post-training. The rest would be more along the lines of “Don’t Diet” with all P&C meals.
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I’m really keen on this because it forces me to train late in the day. I’ve found that my strength suffers whenever my lifting sessions take place before 2PM or so.
I’ve read the JB articles, I was just curious what everyone here thought. Guess I should’ve made that clear beforehand! Thanks for the responses, though.
E-C, very cool, my friend.
I’ll have to consider training later in the day. I currently do the morning training without any difficulty. The only problem I’d encounter is either extremely late training, or training at peak times, which is totally inefficient.
I always like to mix it up.
E-C, good call on the straight sets. I think this is a great way–yet completely unrevolutionary–to approach training. Works for me, although I’d like to expand my horizons in the future.
Another comment is that I don’t think much of the present discussion is too far-fetched from JB’s Don’t Diet/Massive Eating protocol, like E-C alludes. The slight difference would be a heavier reliance on P/F meals. The overriding principles remain, though.
T-Rock-I can’t say that I can specifically pinpoint why training in the day is better for me, but I’ve got a few potential reasons:
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Increased body temperature.
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My bum shoulder sometimes bothers me if I sleep on it the wrong way. Usually, by noon or so, the dull, achy feeling is gone.
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Just the psychological component: knowing the day is over and you can completely devote yourself to the iron.
I know Poliquin covered this in his “Primetime Training” article; I’m going to go back and give it another read.
E-C and Kelly, I was pondering this whole plan over a little bit more, and I thought of a few more reasons why this schedule might be a very effective approach. That is, the schedule that calls for training in the evening such that you’re eating P/F meals all day long and P/C meal(s) as you last of the day:
*Uninterrupted fat-burning environment all day long.
*P/C meal will go strictly towards recovery (i.e. very little wasted for energy expenditure), as most individual’s spontaneous activity declines at the end of the day.
*Very little hormonal hunger issues (as a result of carbs during the day).
*As long as the last P/C meal is consumed about 90 minutes before bed, you should not inhibit any GH release.
I’m sure there are many more reasons, particularly the psychological and individual differences that you alluded to E-C (i.e. body temperature).
Just thinking - instead of gobs of oatmeal, how about a couple of bowls of cereal with some skim milk and a couple of scoops of protein? Something like shredded wheat that has a lot of fiber with very little sugar. I love to eat cereal but haven’t in so long. And while I’m thinking about it, wouldn’t it be easier to eat at a maintenance level to burn the necessary fat and gain the muscle rather than being hypocaloric? I mean, your metabolism would be pretty high as well as your leptin levels, the P+F meals throughout the day would be melting the fat away, and then the post workout carb load would allow for ample muscle recovery. Thoughts on this vs. hypocaloric?
I’ll post an example of my diet today later on when I get home from work
-Hogan-
Hogan-I’m planning on going with maintenance calories with the P&F during the day. Personally, I’d stay away from the skim milk; I’m not a big fan of it because lactose is made of glucose and galactose. While the glucose is okay, galactose is a definite no-no for me. Like fructose, it can only fill up liver glycogen stores, increasing the likelihood of fat storage. Perhaps as importantly, it does not stimulate a primary release of insulin. For our anabolic window, we want insulin! In all honesty, although cottage cheese is much lower in carbs, I’m still hesitant to use it in this key meal because of the galactose issue. I want all my carbs going to muscle glycogen. As such, I’ll probably stick with a blend of whey and casein (or milk protein isolate) with my oatmeal.
As for the cereal, it’s your call. Berardi has listed a few Canadien brand cereals in the past that are decent carb sources, but I can’t recall the exact names. Give it a shot and see where it gets you, then adjust if needed.
To all-I’ll be getting my plan all organized within the next few days, and then kicking it off on Tuesday after I get back from NYC. That is, of course, unless MBE, Zev, Joel, and I do something stupid and wind up incarcerated, hospitalized, deported, or lying in some gutter…
Timbo,
Those are pretty much the exact same reasons why I worked out that plan the way it is. I think for me and many, it’s a heck of a lot easier to stay away from carbs and the cravings associated with their consumption if we aren’t eating carbs during the day. For many that first carb meal just lights the cravings for carbs the rest of the day. Having the evening workout and then eating carb + protein meals up until bedtime is a whole lot easier then having a morning or afternoon workout and eating a couple of P+C meals and then switching back to P+F. Also getting the fat burning effect going for the majority of the day weighs big with me.
Hogan: I don’t see anything wrong with that approach. I do, however, have the same feeling regarding milk as E-C.
You could opt for a low-fat granola, low-fat, no sugar-added meusli, or I think JB has recommend the cereal Vector in the past (it’s a Kellogg’s cereal only sold in Canada). The US equivalent to the latter, I believe, is Smart Start. I’ve tried neither of them, though:-)
I’m actually thinking of writing something up, guys, on using this type of approach. I’ll work on some real numbers and schtuff:-)
Vain68,
Building muscle is anabolic true…but since when is fat loss considered catabolic? Am I missing something?
This thread is blowing up nicely…
Greekdawg, fat loss is the loss of stored bodyfat. This process of lipolysis involves the breakdown of adipose tissue. Whether it be the breakdown of stored fat, stored carbohydrate or stored amino acids, known respectively as lipolysis, glycogenolysis and proteolysis, the process is always a catabolic one.
Catabolism is not strictly designated to breakdown of muscle tissue.
Ok boys, today’s diet went something like this:
Breakfast: 4 egg whites, 1 whole egg, 1 slice cheese, 2 servings protein
P+F Snack: Protein shake and 1T flax oil
Lunch: 2 cups tuna, couple of handfuls of spinach, 2T caesar dressing, 1 slice cheese
P+F Snack: Protein shake and 1T flax oil
workout
Post Workout: 2 servings surge
45 minutes following workout: 2 cups rice and 1 cup tuna
Before bed: haven’t decided if I should have another P+F, but I may just have a small amount of cottage cheese.
Totals looked like this: 2756 calories, 88 g fat, 161 g carbs, 310 g protein. At 185lbs, my maintenance is 2775 calories. 134 g of carbs came within 1 hour of training, the rest was during the day. The theory after reading this thread would be that I should lose fat (perhaps at a faster pace i.e. increased metabolism, leptin levels) while maintaining muscle mass. I think because I was dropping calories so low the past few weeks, I lost a bit more muscle and thus the BF stayed stagnant. I have the Accumeasure Digital calipers coming in any day so I’ll be able to better track progress. I have the non-digital ones but I can’t seem to get the little knob to click so I find that I’m constantly retaking the measurement. Ok, enough rambling…
I’ll keep this up for 2 weeks and see what happens from there. As for the milk and cereal idea, well maybe it wasn’t such a good idea after all. I think I just had a craving for frosted mini-wheats at that point or something.
Looking forward to seeing Eric and Timbo’s plans
-Hogan-
(I’ve only given this thread a good once-over, so if I’m being redundant and/or retared, please keep the flaming to a minimum…)
Basically, the main premise that’s being put forth is a quasi-cyclical-ketogenic-diet (only ketosis is never really established). - I have some expertise in this area, so I offer the following:
With regards to the post-lifting carb meal(s), I’ve found that the best starting point is to aim for bodyweight (in lbs.) * 60% as a target for carbs. For example, someone who’s 170 lbs. would try for 102g of carbs (170 * .60). Fat should be minimal, but I like to add a little flax oil (1t.); protein should be in the 25-30g range. - Surprisingly, this is almost exactly the 4:1, carb:protein ratio that Timbo had mentioned!
As for sources, the protein was always whey, and I always used straight-up weight-gainer for carbs (glucose, maltodexrin, dextrose… - but NO fructose, lactose, or sucrose).
I favor 2 ‘carb-load’ meals per training day - taken as the last two meals of the day (after training in the late afternoon). Keep a good 90-120 minutes between your 2nd carb-load meal and bedtime, and your blood sugar should be crashing just in time for sleepy-time.
Hollywood, thanks for posting your plan. I think we all garner quite a bit from seeing specifics of what others are doing. I’ll be sure to post me oh-so-unfancy tactics in the near future. I’m simply doing some Don’t Dieting, though.
I’ve got some comments too, Hollywood, on specific numbers, but I’m still working on them, so bear with me:-)
Klink, I think you hit the nail on the head and pretty much summed things up. However, I would just like to say that I’m of the belief that ketosis is somewhat overrated. I don’t think you need to be in that state to be in optimal fat-burning. For example, like you mentioned, one will not be in ketosis following this protocol.
However, the hormonal environment is such–during the P/F feedings–that it is just as conducive to fat-burning as would be a ketogenic diet. In our revised approach, you get the benefits of adding carbs–albeit in massive quantities–which will help maintain/improve performance and provide an anabolic environment.
That 4:1 ratio I was talking about? Well, I was reading over the study (in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research) and it was all about glycogen resythesis. It did not mention protein synthesis whatsoever. So, either this kid I was talking to is a flake, or there is another part to the study. Man, how do these kids get into grad school these days:-)
Hollywood, I just caught your cereal desire. I don’t see a problem with it whatsoever. Who needs milk when you can have chocolate milk! That’s right, mix up some low-carb Grow! (or any chocolate protein blend) with some water and pour it over your kiddie cereal (sorry, I had to go there). You’re set.
Now, like E-C mentioned earlier, I think it important to look at this as two separate feeding periods. While I think it’s critical to track and record calories, I’m not sure how one’s calorie needs might change with such a different method of eating. For example, will you experience a greater thermic effect of feeding from the slight bout of overfeeding? All I’m saying is that it might take some tooling around. Once I dial in on my leanness, I might just do some of this tooling around. Maximum muscularity is the key for now, though.
Anyway, I think it a good idea to try to get three P/C meals in post-training. That is, your serving of Surge (I’d just have one…I need all the real, chewable food I can get!), followed 30-60 minutes later by a whole-food meal, followed 2 hrs later by another whole-food meal. Like Klinky-Dink said, 90 minutes is probably what you’re shooting for prior to sleepy time.
I’m going to run some numbers on calories, protein and carbs to see what I come up with.
Wow, this thread has really developed hasn’t it. We’ll need to split it up soon into sections I think.
Timbo, I too am very interested in the P/F during the day, P/C at night approach. This does seem to make sense in regard to maximum fat-burning during the day, and anabolism post-workout.
Couple of things I’d like to return to here:
- You make some interesting points in regard to the absolute calorie requirements for this dual goal- I think it will DEFINATELY take some tinkering to come to an optimum- We are basically TRYING to vary our metabolism during different times of the day, so if we succeed it will theoretically make any “normal” calculations of calorie needs inaccurate. Do I make sense?
- One thing not mentioned so far is what should be done (if anything) for during-the-night nutrition. Should we partition some of our allotted calories (1 meal) to the middle of the night, or go with the fasting state? AND, if we do eat during the night, and we TRAIN late too, should this meal be P/C, or P/F, OR even straight protein?
I would suggest a middle of the night P/F, in order to prevent muscle catabolism and not inhibit GH release much.
However, we come across a quandary if we are still within hours of finishing training- could we be missing out on further anabolism? I guess the potential hormonal down-sides would counterbalance this.Summary? Timing of training is going to be a fine line-Yes, let’s train late, but early enough to use that post-workout period in the evening to BEST advantage. And if we decided to fast during the night, and have trained TOO late, it could have nasty consequences…
What d’ya think guys? SRS
Timbo-The 4:1 ratio is exactly what I’ve heard mentioned over the years as an optimal approach for CYCLISTS during and after longer rides. Obviously, in their cases, the main objective was to restore muscle glycogen rather than stimulate protein synthesis (read: get HYOOOGE). I might just be talking out my butt here, but I think that there’s a lot of value in sticking with the 2:1 ratio here. Berardi uses it mid/post training with Surge, and you’ll even find it recommended on the label of your Surge canister. If my insulin levels are only going to be through the roof for 2-3 hours per day, I want to make sure that I’m getting a buttload of protein in during that time period.
Hogan-Plan looks decent so far; I would include a few more greens during the day, though (an extra serving of spinach or broccoli). Remember, veggies are anabolic:) Also, what is your split looking like?